It's time for SL residents to take a stand

And as we can plainly see from the multiple threads regarding this topic everyone is doing a very fine job of letting a resident run their own enterprise. "Fine job" meaning "repeatedly making demands for the return of funds which were /knowingly/ placed at risk."

Presently, at best, the situation is a "slow pay" versus a "no pay" (as people are still able to make withdrawals).

<---Looks around WHERE?

i can see where you are coming from Wilhelm. however, a year ago when ginko hit a rough patch, the same thing happened. everyone came out with the pitchforks and torches and demanded the monster die. ginko recovered, and here we are again.

in no way could he predict what happened with the WSE and the casinos. should he have been prepared for the casinos closing? yes...could have forseen a hack into the system? no. try as hard as many here are doing, you simply cannot apply RL banking rules to a virtual world. when i put my money into ginko it was MY choice. and as it was pointed out several times, the ToS, to break it down, says: You pay your moneys you takes your chances. and in RL everytime you put your money in a bank, FDIC insured or not, you are still taking chances. to hold someone to a higher standard than you would your RL bank is unrealistic and simply wrong. let the man try to fix it. or at least pay off those he owes. and then leave him be. ponzi or not, he did honor his rates.

and to add to the mix, these threads regarding said situation are not helping, and whether they admit to it or not, contributed to a mass panic that caused many to pull out needed funds to liquidate. and again, i have to give him credit for trying to make good on his debts.

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an apology to the SLBBB: in no way did i mean to cause confusion regarding your company. i meant my acronym(SLBBC) to mean "SecondLife Busy Body Commitee". all apologies if there was any confusion cause by this.

Linden is going to do for sl players against Ginko what they do with their customer service, the many many bugs in sl and anything considered useful in any way, shape or form and thats a big NOTHING!!!!!! NOT-A-THING!!!!!

Don't waste your energy or time asking them to get involved or to help because that's exactly what you're be doing. You should know this by now and if you don't, you will learn soon enough how helpful they can be.

I see where the interest rates were returned to .10% per day so went to the main branch to chat with the locals. It seems people are getting their money even if it is slow and the rush to withdraw has slowed somewhat. I also saw Nobody Fugazi there so when I left went to his BLOG to see what was new and so far nothing.

I think if people were to stop all this panic, maybe mass withdraw would slow down a bit, and then if anything Ginko would have a better chance to get this all back in order. I understand everyones upset, believe me, But the panic and mass withdraw because of the panic will hurt everyone more than help. I think the fact that Ginko has been here for so long and the fact that these past few days have been been hell, and the guy is still here slowly allowing withdraws instead of just closing up shop and screwing everyone over says something. Do I agree with Ginkos current actions..No not completely. But... I think the panic that has been created has made matters way worse than they should be and slowed down any progress.

There's nothing the Lindens would do in this situation as it's a dispute between residents (see Section 5.1 of the Terms of Service) and the resident in question has broken no rules.

It's also not much of a dispute. Basically, a resident has adjusted the maximum daily amount for withdrawals from his enterprise.

Story problem:

You're in a fast food eatery... you've ordered a hamburger... you're told to wait five minutes.

Six-minutes later when the hamburger has still not arrived do you:

a) Call the police?

b) Start a blog about how you had to wait longer than five minutes for the hamburger?

c) Burn the hamburger stand to the ground?

d) a, b, and c?

e) Cool your heels and wait for your hamburger?

And that's the whole problem... stuck Impatience Gear.

After things get unjammed at Ginko people will start complaining that the rate of return isn't high enough.

Of course, the difference here is, the restaurant has no hamburger to give. In fact, it's not even a restaurant yet, it has no kitchen facilities. But it offered a fantastic deal on a lunch special.

For some time, the restaurant took in people's money, and then used that money to (supposedly) invest in a kitchen facility that would, down the road, be able to provide hamburgers for all of it's customers.

Now, a bunch of people want their hamburgers that they have payed for. The restaurant has admitted it has no hamburger to give, and the money that was supposed to buy a kitchen hasn't. Nor will it tell anyone where all the money that was supposed to be used to build a kitchen has gone. Needless to say, this annoys people, so they start demanding their hamburgers, now.

Which, of course, the "restaurant" is completely unequipped to provide. So it's formed a line to give out hamburgers... but it keeps accepting hamburger orders. It uses the hamburger order from customer 17 to buy a hamburger for customer 1 from the McDonalds across the street and give it to customer 1, the money from customer 18 to buy a hamburger for customer 2, etc.

At no point in that chain will the "restaurant" ever be able to provide for all of it's customers, because it's bleeding any potential profits just trying to - barely - stay solvent. Unless something miraculous changes.

Really? I don't remember them hitting a "rough patch" remotely like this. There is certainly nothing I could find in the forum archives to support that assertion. Even still, when Ponzi was running his scheme, he had a couple runs where investors got out the torches and pitchforks. The first one, he paid out everyone who demanded their money with a smile. The second one, however, he didn't recover from, and was when the feds stepped in to shut him down.

Only time will tell what is going to happen with this particular situation with Ginko, but even if it does recover, it still proves nothing. Other, longer running Ponzi schemes have performed even better than Ginko for much longer.



Of course you can; HE does. There is no reality distortion field in a virtual world where all of a sudden losses turn into profits, and all accounting math works backwards. Maybe by perception, but not in actuality. What rules cannot be enforced in the virtual world are ones which would resolve the situation for the benefit of all concerned. It is just a toy bank in a "game", it is just play money, and he's just a dude pretending to be a banker. There's no regulatory agency, no oversight, and no laws/rules about what he is doing to keep him honest. Everyone just has to trust that he is doing right by them. For some, that trust doesn't come easy, and rightfully so. Yes, that means that they shouldn't be giving him their money, either, and anyone who loses faith should get their money the hell out of his hands as quickly as they can.



Absolutely. I certainly can't dispute that at all. That still doesn't mean people should feel all warm and fuzzy inside that they can't get at their money to pay their bills, either RL or SL. Nor does it mean that they have to continue to trust in the bank or be silent about their fears and feelings regarding the situation. In addition, there is nothing prohibiting discussion and speculation about what is going on by anyone, since anyone *could* become involved with the organization at will. I have to admit, Ginko's basic interest rates are compelling, but I have always regarded all SL banks with such exorbitant rates as unsustainable at best, and Ponzi schemes at worst. Seeing this now, I am curious, and I want to know for sure; it's Ginko's real trial by fire; even if it survives this situation, how it survives will probably be the measure for whether it will continue to be a long-term issue, or a short-term failure.



How do you figure he is being held to a higher standard than a RL bank? In RL, an insolvent bank is liquidated immediately when it consistently fails to meet depositor withdrawal demands in a timely manner for long enough. It's called *bankruptcy*. Problem is, he can't be held to that, because there is no regulatory or enforcement body that exists to make that happen involuntarily.

We don't have any choice but to let him "try and fix it". Nothing else can be done about it. If he *could* pay off those he owes, don't you think that he would?

Ponzi honored his rates as well, right up until the end. He paid out every dollar he promised with a smile, right up until the feds shut him down. If they would have let him, he would have paid out every account until the last dollar.



They may not be helping *him*, but they are most definitely helping others who are considering whether or not to trust *him* with their money. The bulk of the mass panic has very little to do with any discussion we are having here, and everything to do with people who are trying to withdraw money... ANY money... but cannot, are not getting any real satisfaction out of Ginko, have lost all faith in Ginko's ability to manage their investments, and are doing everything they can to get all of their money out of Ginko. All of that doesn't need all the "armchair banking squad" (or "busybody committee" to make happen. These threads could have been completely deleted, new ones suppressed, and it wouldn't make any significant difference on what is happening.

Ginko needs to resolve this situation without depending on new deposits. To do otherwise guarantees that it is a Ponzi scheme. You can't just take money straight from new deposits and pay your old deposit obligations with it like that, because you aren't fulfilling your fiduciary duty to invest the new depositor's money. Taking Peter's money to pay your obligation to Paul means that you can't invest Peter's money so that he can earn the returns you told him he would receive. Even if you do pay Peter back down the road, with the interest promised, if you did so by giving him the money you received as deposits from John and Jane, you just keep making the situation worse, because it keeps taking more and more money from later depositors to pay your obligations to earlier depositors. That is precisely what makes the bank a Ponzi, and why there eventually WILL be a run which shuts down the bank.

Now, some astute financier out there will say "But he could just be selling Paul's stake in the bank's investments to Peter!". That is true, but only as long as 1) There actually are investments that can be traded, and 2) they are performing at least as well as what the bank is offering both Peter and Paul, past and present. The bank always has to adjust its outgoing interest rate based on its incoming rate (of which is has little control), its expenses, and its projected profit margins. All of that figures into its "spread", and it means that the bank's investments have to be performing as well as, if not better (they have to be better, because Ginko has expenses and liabilities outside of the ones to its depositors) than what Ginko is offering to its customers.



I'm sure you would have been right there giving Charles Ponzi credit for trying to make good on his debts, too, but so did lots of his investors during the runs. That's nothing new.

Yes. And since that is the case, we can close all the threads on this subject. To quote the quote in my signature: "I have already said numerous times that Ginko Financial is out of cash." Nicholas P.

some facts and this is almost a cross post

if you want to try with an alt or something and 1L

there are no tos given out before you deposit and not even after you deposit. There is an about us page and i watched the words just changed.

You can put your deposit in and try to take it out right away and guess what YOU CAN"T. You get added to the queue and there are several thousand in the queue as we speak.

I'm sorry to anything who says that this posting is causing it to be worse I dont see how a new player sticking his lindens in this "bank" and not being able to touch them can be any worse. At present the machine just eats your lindens period end of sentance.

TOS there are NONE

sorry anyone claiming to have agreed to one please realize that this is not true cause I tried twice I got none before i clicked on the machine and none after. I didn't even like the idea of trying to click so i used an alt for all i know the thing can empty me out tomorrow so tip an alt 1L and give it a try if you dont believe me!

in little teeny writing which I as a person with bifocals could barely read on the about us page there was some sort of a disclaimer. The fact of the matter is the so called TOS are hidden and you dont even know there is a website till after you sign up no notecards are dropped on you nothing. The machine EATS YOUR MONEY AND WONT GIVE IT BACK.

Just wondering why you are wasting your time and L$1 to test something that we all already know.

Maybe, since the gambling ban, Wil's alt has developed a compulsion to put L$1 in a machine.

cause everyone was busy saying there was a "tos" we agree to before depositing. Another lie lol or maybe an "oopsie". I also wanted to see this "queue" everyone is saying we dont know what we are talking about so when someone tells me that I go check it all out

I"m also no longer a member of the "official busy body committe" i'm now the proud owner of an empty bank account ^^

I'm sure there is a tos around somewhere. Try the website. This all is kind of beating a dead horse at this point. Or a dead Ginko.

no not tos its on the "about us" page as i said when some person who holds an account says they agree to something before signing up blah blah and knew what they were doing i get kinda curious maybe i made a mistake. In any event we have been beating the dead horse for an entire weekend hehe. I just get tired of being told I don't know anything and have no idea what i'm talking about when the horse is beating me over the head with a stick already.

When people come in and tell us a thread is causing a panic etc and we need to shut up i also wonder what's going on hehe

in any event such is life when is strife gonna lock the threads ?

Isn't looking at a website something completely different than depositing into an atm?

When this gentleman deposited, he recieved no tos, no warning about what he was getting into. All he may have seen was an ad saying this was a "bank" to keep lindens safe and make a little extra in interest.

tsk, tsk ginko

Not soon enough.

Try touching the ATM beforehand, you should get a notecard. I don't recall what it said, but it may have the TOS.

nope tried with 2 alts i got nothing tried one last night and another one this morning i just got a message in my whisper window to stick money in

if there was a tos its now gone but it sure as heck still takes money

So wait - there's this mystery box with no TOS or info that whipsers to you to give it money?

There's a good reason to part with my hard-earned $L!

yes go try it maybe something is wrong with my avatars and they aren't getting the notecards but i got none please tell me there is a tos and i just didn't get it? even then ack?

Very good points.

I'm locking this thread for a number of reasons:

1) It started out badly (Ranting).
2) Consolidate the topic (We don't need a half dozen threads on the topic).
3) Thread necromancy is frowned upon.

Feel free to reference this thread with regards to further discussion of Ginko.