Selling on Xstreet just got more expensive

I wonder what LL's policy is on posting something in the picks section saying something like: "This item is no longer available on XStreet due to recent company policy. You can find it in-world at XXX."

I'd still personally love to post this on each of my XStreet Listings before I pull them, but I have a feeling that would be frowned upon.

I'm waiting for slapt.me to promote a ready made solution.

Pep (The Netherlands are awake by now, but maybe they have stopped reading these forums.)

Don't care. They screwed-up one too many times, in a long string of colossal screw-ups. I'm done with those Commerce Clowns and their pathetically mismanaged and gruesomely ill-designed site.

one freebie paradise as requested:
http://www.slapt.me/market/index.php?act=market&id_cat=426


If you have problems accessing the site don't be surprised. The load from everyone trying to get there will take its toll (it is a startup after all, it's not used to high loads.) I wouldn't be surprised if the other shopping sites are also staggering under the weight.

Survey to mob: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2009/11/survey-on-xstreetsl-freebies-policy.html

They already have this suggestion in hand and had it long before you showed up with it. Don't flatter yourself. If they cared they would have already discussed it. It isn't the only suggestion they blew off either. Burt no worries. Not every marketplace is a "can't do" organization.

I pointed this out to them during the office hour I attended on the topic and they pretty well brushed it aside. I suspect that's because it's not part of the programme.

This little adventure is the most obvious sign yet that the basic premise of sl is changing. It's "professionalising" (in their uniquely amateur way) and they either missed or ignored the most basic fact of XSL - which is it has always been the incubator for talent. A lot of people start out by listing their stuff there and as they get feedback and grow they then put down roots inworld. But then they refuse to acknowledge that a large proportion of "residents" and content creators are not the highly paid professionals that Alexa tells them are in SL.

This decision effectively severs one of the main content creator development streams, along with removing yet more disposable income from the sl economy.

CouldBe - that was pretty much my reaction once this digested. Linden Lab seems to be phasing out the hobbyist. It seems like they want professional level content, and the rest of us poor shmoes to be consumers.

Honestly, it isn't easy helping people, and people have done so thus far out of the goodness of their hearts. Helping newcomers adjust to Second Life, helping them upgrade their avatar, find other freebies, to learn, etc.

If Linden Lab chases out the hobbyist they are also chasing out a good deal of the free help that has helped to make Second Life as viable as it has thus far been.

There is a name for the type of place LL seems to want for its future.

Blue Mars.

Got nothing do to with flattering myself Ann. Might be surprising, but I do not refer to a chat with a Linden in order to boost my ego. Not something my ego needs really.

The reason I mention it, is to show that working with them is better then whining in these forums.

But really, the more I read, the more I think is was a bad idea to start this up anyway. As I mentioned before, I don't mind the new developments, if anything it will help me as a merchant. And if not, well then I simply stop using XStreet, easy as that.

About the alternative market places, I really hope they succeed. But without the boost XStreet gets through the website (and probably eventually within the SL client), I rather bet on Xstreet.

I hope a listing fee will encourage these folks to put all their colors in one package for the price of, say, two colors.

I can picture it now:

Professional Merchant1: So, we got rid of all the riff-raff then.
Professional Merchant2: Sure, did. No more competition from those freeloaders.
PM1: Hell, yeah. Jacked up all my prices to cover the new costs, then a little more as a bonus.
PM2: hahahaha - me too! It's just too easy.
PM1: Ummm, so how are sales these days?
PM2: Oh - well, things have got a little quiet actually. I expect people need time to adjust.
PM1: Yeah, that would be it. They'll come around, realize it's all in their best interest.
[PM1 and PM2 twiddle thumbs as a chill wind blows through their nether regions and a freebie tumbleweed bounces by, chuckling...]

Precisely. LL is intent on drawing a bright line of demarcation between craftspeople and merchants--and forcing into the former category all but the top half-dozen or so who fancy themselves "merchants."

If you look at the office hour transcripts, they're dominated by slutwear merchants who imagine that they'll be better off if LL would just thin-out the noisy competition from search. What they don't realize is that even those advocating the changes will be among those thinned from the herd, one way or another. This little listing fee thing is just an early step on that path.

Anyone doubting that this is LL's direction need look no further than the Estate land market. The mini-barons' fate is already sealed: they can dabble if they find it fun, but they need not imagine growing into anything substantial. There are just ooo many advantages already in place for the "old money" in that market for anybody new to break in.

You can still do that. The costs involved are pennies. If pennies will prevent you from trying, then maybe you shouldn't try.

How much time does it take you to create a product and make a listing for it? But four cents (the first month's listing fee) is more important? It's worth your time but not four cents?

Things that aren't worth four cents are precisely the kinds of things this is intended to eliminate. Complaining about it on that basis just validates the plan.

I don't know, Anya; it isn't about the money in itself. Although if someone has multiple freebies listed, over a year's time it could add up to something real. I think it is more about the psychological impact, and about people perceiving this as LL penalising ambition and enterprise.

A lot of people put a toe in the water rather than jump in. It's one thing to list freebies with a 'what the heck' attitude when there is nothing to lose. It's another thing when it means what was either an experiment or a wish to help others, becomes "oh I need to make sure to sign up with payment info so I can buy Linden$ and pay for those listings." Then it becomes a business. Some truly are in this for fun, and I think it's unwise to discourage those users.

And then, if people feel that toe in the water was bitten often enough, they might just feel it is not worth it. After all, it was for fun, for an experiment, or to help others. And why should people do all of that for a place that keeps biting them for the effort.

I'm beginning to wonder that myself. It isn't always easy helping others, as I said a bit ago; but if one has the feeling of wrestling LL at the same time, for a future that's gloomy, where is the upside?

What a true shame, everyone loves a freebie, gets me on the SLex site several times a week, and i always end up buying other things that came up, it's just such poor business.

I feel for anyone that would actually pay to be in SLex, i think your definitely see a big drop in sales. As always, as the ACTUAL online population continues to shrink, i shake my head and wonder wtf are they thinking in the big LL board room, how to sink SL in 5 years or less??

Anyone that's taken even an entry level economics or business course is taught, greed is the biggest buster of an upward trend management can impose on their company..so long SL, heyyy whats going on in OL???

You know, all these years ive often so wondered why they called it a "game" bingo, i think its to see how much money LL can win from us...i think i'm losing

Pardon me, but just "who" are these customers they have asked??? WHy in gods name would a merchant pay anything to GIVE away something!!! BOGUS!!

I am now taking down all my freebies I have on there and considering removing everything...

Which is going to effect my profits overall on SL and since I do NOT make enough money in world to pay my tiers BECAUSE PEOPLE CANT FIND ME!! I am going to of COURSE need to rethink paying LL 500.00 a month! Which I have been having trouble with anyway....

Well, what a wonderful way to force the smaller guys such as myself and MANY of you out of the rat race. Once again LL doesnt give a shit about the smaller guys... PROVEN

The answer to their STALE freebies is frankly this, remove them after 30 days! DUH!
So basicly I am going to have to pay 99L a month for each freebie I list??? I mean I have to PAY to give away a freebie?!?!?!?!? COME ON!

Am I understanding that right??

OK, wait what on top of the fee I have to pay into Xstreetsl when I make a sale, I have to pay 10L also when I list?!?!?!?
This isn't ebay! You are not selling tangable goods!!! AND WHY dont LL look at ebay user now, not to many shop there now! WHy? well merchants cant afford the listing prices and the buyers can't afford the price that is needed to COVER those fees. ebay is faltering!

Nothing I have is over 500L on Xstreet, it is AMAZING to me some of the prices that people charge for stuff on XstreetSL... I am a thrifty gal and I dont pay a lot for my virtual clothes.. and I in turn get sales because people like my stuff, nice quality and detailing and its AFFORADABLE!!

CRAZY!!!!!!!

I was NEVER ASKED nor told of any kind of meeting to discuss this! As I am sure most can also claim.

I love the way LL credits all PRICE raises to "resident feedback"!
Meanwhile they are crusing the residents quality of life on SL and making the smaller less known and sometimes BETTER quality than the big guys merch unatainable!

considering the amount of items i have on there is not a mear penny to me.

The issue is not about the four cents from my pocket but the four cents from everyone's pocket.

Just did a quick and dirty calculation. Each additional 1c LL raises on every listing per month equates to around an extra US$132,000 annual revenue.

Only, that number is already down from what it was before people started pulling their items off XStreet and it's going to keep going down.

All you 'this is a good thing' merchants are welcome to it. Stay and pay, LL will love you for it. In future my purchases will all be in world and if I enter a store and see an XStreet sign I'm turning around and walking.

Rime

May I ask a serious question, without upsetting anyone?

Do we feel more sympathy when it comes to creating and selling items on SL when we are dealing with Mr or Miss average who is no expert but had a few ideas now and again, and perhaps have one or two dozen at most things they sell.

Or more sympathy towards the big business people with hundreds or thosands of items for sale and one or more large stores around the SL world, making perhaps a few hundred dollars a month.

Seeing as we are all for "world build by the users" which is what makes SL special as opposed to a normal (game) that's built and put together by business professionals.

I'm just wondering in which way our mood/concern was focussed here?

But you didn't get there overnite. "I wonder if these three hundred items would sell". The complaint was that you couldn't find out if something you made was marketable, but you can. If it does sell, you can make more.

It doesn't matter how many items you have. If they aren't worth four cents per month than maybe they are clutter. It's as true for 300 items as it is for one.

Removing my items from XStreet-SL is not a protest, for me. It's not a knee-jerk emotional reaction. It's simply an acknowledgement that with the new fee-based structure, my profit margins and sales there are in no way worth justifying the risk (or certanty, for some items) of LOSING money every month to pay those fees. Especially not on the megaprim pack that I offered as a public service, for free.

When I was first getting started as a merchant in SL, in late 2005 early 2006, I listed a handful of T-shirts for sale on the old SL Boutique site. No listing fees, no recurring fees, and I gave them a small (5% as I recall) commission on anything I did manage to sell. It gave me a start when I had nothing.

Over the years I tried free spaces in malls, paid-for spaces in malls, and just about every web-based e-commerce site that cropped up. I even set up my own store a few times.

At my peak, I had 6 to 10 store locations in-world, and over 200 items listed on SLX, before LL bought them out. Plus another 100+ texture bundles available at a texture store and via a web e-commerce site run by someone else.

The only places where I managed to make a reliable profit were the "no-fees-up-front, straight commission on sales" oppourtunities. Profit margins in SL were simply too slim and sales volumes too low to cover tier for land for a store, or mall space rental, or listing fees for e-commerce sites.

So I closed the operations that were unprofitable, and focused on what worked for me. I sell my textures in-world and on the web via a "no-fees-up-front, straight commission on sales" agreement. And I pay a hell of a lot more than a 5% or even 30% commission on sales. But you know what? I *NEVER* lose money from having an item offered for sale, either. Never. My texture sales totally eclipsed any sales from dresses, shirts, hats, furniture, or anything else I ever tried to sell.

And now I do most of my profit-making work as a sim designer and builder. A business that I don't need an in-world store or a e-commerce site for. A business where word-of-mouth referrals from happy customers often generates more business than I can handle, without spending a penny on ads or marketing. And even if I wanted to advertize that on XStreet with their banner ads, I CAN'T! Their policies prohibit links to sites that refer to other e-commerce sites, even if the site itself is the merchant's own website. And since my website does list links to where I sell my textures, I'm not permitted, by LL's anti-competitive rules, to use my own site to advertise my own services.

Before this latest flap, my XStreet sales on 17 listed items (of which two were freebies) was steadily declining, and hardly worth bothering with. I removed the 15 for-profit items, virtually all of which had dropped to zero sales levels, when LL institured anti-competitive rules that prohibited us from linking to any e-commerce site that LL didn't own and profit from. That made it impossible for me to support many of the products and services that I wanted to offer. And frankly, the problems with their service were making it completely unworkable, anyway.

So they can take their merchant site and do what they want with it. I no longer care. Maybe it is still a good deal for some of the big fish who are "making bank" on high sales volume and low variety of goods. But it no longer works for me.

Well by reading this thread you can probably tell. Most people are not making real world profit in SL. Most people are the 'little guy' who have other motives or who are in it for fun, or to help others, or to be part of a virtual world in some way. Whether on purpose or not, most are not in it for profit.

So to be continually disregarded is not a way to win those people over to staying long term.

You've seen that for the most part, the ones who are making profit will write this off as a small expense for business promotion.

For my part, to answer your question more directly, I'm concerned about those this will hurt the most, who are the ones trying to help the community without profit or concern for themselves. That does not mean that they can afford to be or will like to, feel they are being charged/penalised/dissuaded from that effort, though. After all, altruism can be practised in the 'real world' in many ways also.

My sympathy is with upward mobility: the idea that a few of those who experiment with a few new ideas just might make it big if they're so inclined.

Personally, I have the luxury of not being so inclined. If buyers find me, that's cool; if not, that's fine too. But I'm not particularly worried about people with my inclinations.

I'm worried about people who get excited by the prospect of growth and find their way blocked by oldbies still cranking out stuff with same stale talent they've had since '05, safely cushioned by ever-heightening barriers to entry for competition.

Mind you, these little listing fees and associated nuisance charges don't materially change that. But you can be sure no Linden fretted over whether they might. On the contrary, they're looking for ever more ways to preclude anyone from successfully competing with those who earned their place, back when it was easy to do.

My sympathy is with the small merchant who can not see what a benefit this would be to them. It gives them a chance to make it. They hardly have a chance the way it is set up now. That is....if they want to make profits. I wish I could take each one of them under my wing, and show them. But there are too many chips on the shoulders to knock off.

If they are doing it for fun, and to get their product out as a service, and to help newcomers.....there are tons of other ways to do that. They can continue to do so. A lot of those methods involve bringing the people back inworld to get the freebies....and getting them back into your stores.....or just getting them back in to move around and participate.

So well said, Qie; *that* is what bothers me greatly about this too. Blocking and locking all the doors. What use is there in even trying? The same amount of energy and talent expended outside SL would have much greater reward, and chance for reward. One does not need SL to apply those same types of skills and talents for profit in the real world.

What used to be unique about SL was that it was a fertile ground for visionaries, for people who perhaps had not given their talents a try before. Who, for one reason or another, found it easier to try here, to fail here, to try again.

So if that fertile ground is paved over and no new plantings allowed, what does that say to new arrivals? Or to those who took joy in helping those new arrivals - never knowing which might be the next in world artist?



Where they can pay virtual land fees to a company that doesn't give a crap if they are happy .