Copyright abuse in SL

Pardon me for Interjecting another section of TOS here, but you MAY find it relevant within your thread of Discussion.

Doesn't LL Plainly state in thier TOS that EVERYTHING within the confines of the game is THIER property? That they can Change, add or remove anything they Choose because if it is on thier system, it Belongs to Them?

You Cannot show Ownership because TOS specificly reserves Ownership to themselves.
You hold creative rights, but Ultimate ownership? No.

Angel.

SecondLife IS real... it is a MMORPG business with corporate offices in California, and provides entertainment services to subscribers!

Where many people here are falling off the train is that they think that the ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCT is the REAL WORLD.

And it ain't so.

I totally agree that virtual worlds, and digital content provide challenges to the way we see things...

But my point is that it is NOT AT ALL decided how all this plays out....

And that people need to EXERCISE CARE when trying to use the simulated analogies of live in an MMORPG, such that they don't fool themselves into thingking that real world copyright, trademark, patents, and other protections, naturally apply!

I give you the DMCA as PROOF that such things are NOT transferrable to the digital realm... which is why the DMCA was invented! It is exactly BECAUSE patent, TM and copyright law fell far short of addressing these issues, that the DCMA came about.

And I do NOT make the case that things can be copied with impunity... again, I merely say that those that say with forceful conviction that they know what is going on in these areas... are being reckless, and they need to SLOW DOWN a bit... and consider what they are saying.

SHOW ME that REAL MONEY is changing hands ***IN*** SL.

SHOW ME that there is in fact COMMERCE ****IN**** SL. True, real life, commerce.

If you can not.... then this whole discussion about "selling" copyrighted materials simply does not have a leg to stand on.

Hi Angel,

Yes, that is my recollection of TOS as well, and why I am taking the position that I am...

Although I do not refernce it because I can't locate the TOS on the web site.

Anyone here know where to find the TOS?

Thanks

dude, stop shouting. Your words lack credibility when you act like Bill O'Reilly.


uh oh, flamewar starting.

(I can't resist... and with a nod to the guys from Little Brittain)

Prosecutor: "Did you knowingly reproduce this copyrighted painting."

Defendent: "Yeah, but no, but yeah, but you see it was in secondLife, which isn't real, so it like doesn't matter, you know, like totally, but anyway I only did it because Lizzie is a real slag, which is the real problem because cause she dared me to, well anyway..."

Prosecutor: "Did you knowingly reproduce this copyrighted painting... then sell copies of it on the internet?"

Defendent: "Shu'up! I can't believe you just said that! Like it was totally Nigel's fault for knocking up that slag Lizzie in the first place, huh, eh, yuh know I'm right, eh, anyway what does that have to do with anything anyway?"

Prosecutor: "Did you scan and upload this copyrighted painting into SecondLife, and sell copies for a fantasy currency, which you then sold for US$?"

Defendent: "Yes, I did, Ha HA!! But I'm in the 'Ambassadors to RL' group in SecondLife, you can't charge me with anything, I have diplomatic immunity!"

Prosecutor: "Well then. Your Honor... may I recommend the defendent be deported from RL?"

I think the question has been tackled in another thread somewhere, back in the dust, if memory serves me. It is a difficult question, but as for fashion, there are knock-offs all the time in the real world. Do designers like it? No. Is it legal? Yes, as long as the the unoriginal "designers" are not using the original designer's name or logo to sell their knock-off line.

Unless you are Madonna, and can afford badass lawyers to threaten everybody and have money coming out of your ears to waste on frivolous lawsuits (Hint: Don't make Madonna crap in-world if you know what's good for you).

However, for a functional item from real life (could be anything from a hair dryer to a water bottle in a particular shape) that may have a patent on it for its design--that remains to be seen what will happen in the future regarding legality of recreating it in a virtual world.

"show you" what? That some people do actually charge direct for land rental or work done in SL. They do. It may be less common now than it was a year ago when the L$ was sinking in value, but it does happen.

"show you" "Commerce"? is a poor fit to SL, by its own definition, (go look it up, I recommend m-w.com). "Retail" is probably a better suited term. Wanna buy some L$? I sold some the other day.


You're too hung up on this "real" vs. "virtual" thing.


"Bob" doesn't sell an "Aeron Chair" in SL... he sells a representation of one. Is that copyright infringement? Probably not, he crafted the representation. It'd be little different if he sold photographs of that chair as fine art in reality. There are cases in which it might or might not be an infringment.


"Betty" isn't a photographer, but she'll happily scan Ansel Adam's black'n'whites slapped on a flat prim in SecondLife for a few L$. Is that copyright infringement? Well, what is Copyright infrigement?So, Can you SHOW ME the "Except in SecondLife" clause?

Actually, as i said Earlier (And i HAVE seen this in the field of Fan produced items for sale or Distribution) The MOST you are ever likely to receive is a tersely worded Letter on a Lawyers Letterhead warning you to Cease, and Desist, and Advising you that Legal action can, and will be taken If you fail to comply.

Taking Legal Action Costs Money. REAL money. Just ask a Lawyer about Billable Hours sometimes and you will realize there Are indeed more than twenty Four Hours in a day. Corporate Lawyers do not do Pro Bono, Nore do they work on Spec So every moment they waste on you is costing someone Money. You can rest assured the Client will go for the Cheapest option Possible especially since thier likelyhood of Recovering even Costs of Litigation would be slim to None if they actually went after every Fanboy who did a Knock-Off of thier clients work (Btw, I Own Two Dresses IRL, AND in SL that are Based upon Madonna Video Costumes). Imagine spending Twenty to Thirty thousand dollars just to sue someone who is Incapable of Paying. The Only one who Profits from such an action are the Lawyers who must be paid, Win or Lose. That is what you would term a Moral Victory.

Angel.

Ps.

Sorry to disapoint you Mon Chere, But you will have to look elsewhere for Flame Wars, But i will be Glad to respond to you should you add anything useful, or constructive to the Discussion.

A.

[/indent]

You post a paragraph of some conceptual idea of copyright law... and expect that it addresses what we are talking about here? Gimmie a break.

If an SL user SCANNS an ansel adams print... and the act of scanning is the reproduction... then what does that have to do with SL... ??? it was illegal in the Real World BEFORE it was represented IN GAME, if what you say is true. All that they are doing is trying to put illegially reproduced material, done fully outside of game, into the game. You still have not shown illegal activity IN game. It MAY VERY WELL BE. But then again, it very well may NOT be.

If I have an ansel adams print in my room, are you saying that I can not scan it, and then use it to make an SL representaiton of my room, complete with Ansel Adams print?

If not, why not? My print. My room.

You really have to be able to answer these questions before you can say things with certainty. You are pretending it is simple... I don't think it is at all.

I hate to Nitpick Ryder, But in this case you are Half right. When you Scan an Ansel Adams print, Yes you Are reproducing it, and that would be a Violation of Copyright, But, when you Upload it to SL, it is still retained within your Computer. What SL does is Take a Copy of that Copy Into it's own Server, so a Second Violation takes Place. The sticky part, and where you are More Correct comes from the Fact it is You, the Client Causing the second Copy to be Made using the TOOLS of second Life LL themselves did not do so of thier own accord. There Is indeed a Second Violation Taking place and LL is Involved but they are Involved in the Same Capacity as the maker of the Scanner that you used to create the First Copy.

The reason you Cannot Legally recreate your Room as you describe Complete with your Ansel Adams Print is that the person who produced the Print (If you Purchased it Commercially) has Paid a Licencing Fee to the Artist (Or the artists estate) for the rights to Copy, and distribute the Print. YOU have Not. You Own the Print as a Copy, but you do NOT own the rights to reproduce it Ad Infinitum EVEN if you Possess the Means to do it.
If the print on your wall on the Other Hand was produced by you, or an aquaintance through other means, and No such fee has been Paid, the act of creating the Print was in it's self a Violation, and every succesive reproduction Based Upon it is an additional Violation of the Copyrights of the Legal Copyright Holder.

As i said above, LL reserves ownership of everything on it's servers to it's self. The portion of TOS that Forbids bringing in Copying or distributing Copywritten materials on it's servers is an attempt to avoid Liability for Carrying such materials on a server where they claim ALL contents as thier property.

You asked If Not, why Not? There is your answer. the means to do something does Not confer the RIGHT to do something.

Angel.

Hello,

From the TERMS of SERVICE you agreed to when you joined SL.


1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.



So it seems that I was exactly right... that there is NO ACTUAL CURRENCY and NO ACTUAL SALES INSIDE SL.

What lindens are, are a limited right to use a feature that LL says you can use.

NOTHING MORE.

All we have are gamers, that are trading rights to use features in the game.

That being said... the claims that people outside game have against use WRT copyright material in SL seems now to be drastically limited. Obviously copyright owners can not show that they have lost SALES inside SL, because as I have guessed previously, they can not sell things in SL.

So even if Boris came to SL, he could not sell ANYTHING in game. The limits of his control would be the ability to prevent people from copying his work... but only in the areas proscribed by law (not all copies are illegal).

As far as I can tell, we ONLY have intellectual property rights in game, and nothing more.

Of course, regardless of what LL *says* L$ are... the courts are free to disagree

No, Angel... no worries... it is good to nitpick in this area... because it really does require it, so I apppreciate it.

What you ignore is "fair use".

What you have to consider is: "Fair Use"

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

1 the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2 the nature of the copyrighted work;
3 the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4 the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

(from Wikipedia)

So as you can see... of the 4 factors considered... 1 and 4 relate to the commercial aspects of the copy... and as I have already pointed out, commercial transactions inside SL do not seem to exist. People use fantasy currency in a role play. These ares are precisely why I have focused on the notions of "selling" in SL.

as for 2: The nature of the copy is a "virtual" one, and is not in fact a copy of an ansel adams print (contrast it to printing a copy in a darkroom), but rather a likeness of it that has lost its physical form, portability, and utility (it can only be "seen" "in game" on a computer, connected to a network, with permission of LL), it is also of limited / restricted quality, and could not be mistaken for an actual photographic print, but a low resolution likeness.

As for 3, the "sustainability" is of course very limited in SL. LL can erase it on a whim.

So, it seems that on the surface... all 4 mandetory considerations of fair use law side heavily with those that bring content into game... and that with every examination, such use is less and less a legitimate concern of the copyright holder.

Of course one never knows how any court would rule... but the plain facts seem to be that there IS an ability for people to use the work of others in a limited way, which may include SL.

No, I believe not... if the scanning were done for personal use only.



But isn't that "fair use"? We can rip MP3's of CD's we own, legally, just not give them away.

It's DISTRIBUTION that causes trouble. Streaming audio seems "okay", but selling or giving away MP3's without permission.

Having a copy of an artwork in your residence in SL but not giving away copies may actually be quite within "fair use"

If transfering ownership of copies of a work violates the copyright for that work.. then it is a crime.

If someone walks into your virtual house, snaps a pic of your virtual but private copy of your legitimately paid for Ansel Adams print and then THEY distribute it... they're the ones commiting the crime.

Would you be implicated for making that crime possible?
Damned good question, I'm not going there.



"Simple?" No. you're the one that keeps clinging to opinion that what there's some magical wall between SecondLife and the real world, like it's some other nation or planet exempt from everything.

That magical barrier of "fantasy land - immunie to RL law" was torn down when real money started changing hands between users of SecondLife.

--
It's not a "game".... it's a "platform".

But as I have pointed out... no such thing happens in game, as there is NO real money in game.

As for things sold externally to the game... whatever.

You really are not making a convincing case that $ made the distiction between rl and SL simply vanish.

You can say so... but can you SHOW it to be true?

Nor have I said that SL is immune to RL law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said that just because LL has invented a simulation of RL, that does NOT mean that RL law automatically applies to the simulated events in SL.... and that is radically different from your unfair summation of my remarks. Of course laws apply, just not the ones that you may think apply, nor in the ways you think they apply. (see the above conversation of the Ansel Adams print as a case in point)

I have cautioned (and with research, it seems wisely so) that people do NOT mistake a fantasy role play "sale" with an actual sale, nor $L for actual monies. People seem to think that there is true commerce IN GAME, and I challenge that notion.

Push that little (L$) button next to your account balance inside SecondLife.

And, if you think that having some poker chip currency in-world is going to make an iota of difference to a judge when it comes to copyright infringement... keep dreaming.

I can't show you nothing if you're unwilling to open your eyes to it.

And for, for now, I'm done with trying.

On LL:
LL's policy on this whole issue seems to be to cover it's bum as much as possible. This isn't criticism - it's the only sane way to handle the situation from the point of view that doesn't produce [much] content itself. By reserving the right to do whatever it wants with stuff on its servers it allows itself to play it as safe as possible, and err on the side of a copyright claimant - if they're right, then the content goes poof. If they're wrong, well the content can go poof anyway, as per the TOS. Thus while LL's policy has real effects on what exists on SL, it can't be taken to be what's legal or moral (it is, however, very practical.)

On what thing can be copyrighted:

That's a compelling argument if you ask me. But interestingly enough, this is partially because of the *kind* of thing clothing is. Once you recreate the design in SL, it's not really clothing anymore. Is it more like software, or maybe like an architectural drawing (esp. if something is made of prims, this seems more plausible). Does the SL-based recreator somehow have more rights on the form of that prim skirt design than the original RL creator does? I think these are open (and somewhat puzzling) questions.

On fair use:
Fair use seems to be strongest when dealing with making single copies of work for private use (like photocopying an article), or to make criticisms (public or otherwise) about the work. It certainly doesn't apply to run-of-the-mill bootlegging. Both are entirely possible to do in SL. Thus, it seems to me that in order to legally copy something into SL, you really need to look at what you're doing with it. I think the act of actually uploading is essentially analogous to changing format (e.g. reading out a book you own to tape, or ripping a CD (and just the ripping part)), and not particularly important.

On money:
I think the existence of Lindex appears more significant than it is. Without, there would be no question that L$ is fake money (not to be confused with valueless money). However, like most SL things, Lindex is a facilitatory for [mostly] other people trading things. It is still the case that LL prints money out of thin air, and sells it to you for real money, but doesn't treat it as real money because it won't buy them back. LL selling L$ is like buying levels of super-premium membership, and all other transactions are between residents. As long LL doesn't buy back L$, I think this argument will hold. (Prediction - if/when the governments finally figure out how to tax SL earnings and similar things, it will be purely based on how much real money comes out your $USD account this year, not how many $L you made selling stuff.)

Well, I don't know what the judge will say... and that is the point, isn't it!

Linden says I have purchased restricted license to use features in the game.

If so... well, then you have made an error.

No truer thing has ever been said

OK, read what I said as "Poser is one major way of creating poses". The main point is that it is doubtful whether a Poser pose can be "ripped off"; at the very least, the point is disputable.

This is correct, I think. The issue of whether L$ are currency is irrelevant here. A good comparison is with web sites. Suppose I buy a book of prints. I like one, so I scan it and use it as my screen wallpaper. This is fine. If I now put it up on my personal web page where anyone can see it, this is not fine. I am now distributing it to anyone who accesses my web page. The owner of the original copyright could certainly bring an action - and I have seen it happen many times in just such circumstances. It doesn't matter that the web site is free and no money changes hands. Not in the least.

So distributing the scan by uploading it to SL and offering it to other residents, whether it exchange for L$ or just for free, is undoubtedly a breach of copyright. I would think that you are equally in trouble if you upload it and simply put it on the wall of your house, since there's not much practical difference between that and displaying it on your website.

Ryder - thank you for injecting some common sense here. I love this discussion and I think you're right on target. Legality in SL is NEW law - or at least new application of existing law. All arguments about profit are moot. LL has taken a very clear legal stand that L$ can not be construed as real money in any way. These are the lawyers, folks -- even if it is counter-inuitive. They may or may not be proven wrong in a court someday - but that's the current reality. If it wasn't - every SL Casino would be shut down - just for starters (whether or not the images on their machines violate copyright!). L$ profits are, currently, not real - regardless of the fact that they can be exchanged. For those of you who disagree - you'd better enjoy SL while it lasts because if you're right SL will completely cease to exist as we know it. The economy will crumble. From a technical legal perspective.... I'm going to go with the actual lawyers instead of the opinions I've seen here (all good and well-meaning, I'm sure).

Everyone has to make their own moral judgments. You have to ask yourself, very honestly, if you believe anyone might be harmed in any way by what you're doing. If I became the CEO of Coke - I would LOVE to see Coke logos plastered all over SL. I would also abhor incurring the cost associated with having to approve every little occurence of such great free publicity. Technically illegal or not... the common sense of this certainly does not violate my personal sense of morality. If it violates yours then simply don't do business with that vendor. There will never be agreement - in RL or SL - about moral standards of conduct. Even in RL these are constantly evolving. Live and let live! If the grid congestion doesn't get us.... the lawyers will eventually! Enjoy it while you can!

Illegal and immoral are two very different things. We non-lawyers here can not know the legal -- Hell even the lawyers don't know the legal yet because it hasn't been tested in court. Morality is a personal judgment call - whether we like it or not.

Point Conceded

Angel.

If, by Poser Pose, you mean a Preset Poser pose or animation provided within the software, If you have a legally obtained copy of Poser, you Also have been given the rights to use the programs for both Commercial, and Non Commercial purposes (Referring to the renders you create becoming your property) Curious labs has provided an Open Licence for thise Poses use. Importing them into a program that Poser is associated with, (Bryce, 3DS Max, or SL) has ALSO been approved within this Licencing. There are a Multitude of Free to Download third Party poses available for Poser also Most use the same Licencing disclaimer as Curious labs it's self, but SOME reserve the rights for Commercial use (It could, and probably would be debatable if using them in SL constitutes "Commercial use".

If you as a Poser USER create a Pose Preset. That Pose preset belongs to You, it CAN be Copywritten. If however, someone creates thier own Pose, In Poser, and it happens to look Similar to yours, Well, that happens. it is the rightful property of the one who created it.
Once you Import it to SL, Like any other property created in SL it's Copy rights are guaranteed (Such as it is) in the TOS. If you choose to reserve some or all of the Poses Copyrights to yourself, then it Can Indeed be "Ripped Off" if someone uses it without your permission.

Angel.

L$ have 'value' whether they are money or not. The LindeX is proof that even LL believes that L$'s have real world value. Who cares if they're a currency recognized by governments or not... L$'s are assets.

If I gave you 5 shares of IBM, they have value too. If one person can write off the gift or payment as an expense of some sort on their taxes, then the IRS is going to want to know who received it.

With regards to copyright law though, "real money" doesn't need to be involved for a copyright infringement to occur.

Acknowledging that isn't going to invite the "end of days" to SecondLife. As the world grows so too will the people that are creating content from scratch specifically for use in SecondLife. No need to plagarize from copyrighted works in order to create content, unless one is criminally lazy.