Basic business sense says don't expose yourself to significant financial loss in such a risky environment as Second Life. That is the moral of the story.
Edit: Don't you think that Nietzsche would have loved Second Life?
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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04-18-2007 12:19
Basic business sense says don't expose yourself to significant financial loss in such a risky environment as Second Life. That is the moral of the story.
Edit: Don't you think that Nietzsche would have loved Second Life? |
Tyci Kenzo
K2 Owner and Designer
![]() Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 285
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04-18-2007 12:21
ceera please show me where on that site it shows every item you own? from everything ive seen its only items set for sale
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Brenda Connolly
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04-18-2007 12:36
Not only do you have to jump through hoops to get out of this scheme, you have to wait 24 to 48 hours for the change to take effect. Just beautiful. Shame on you LL for either A
A: Tacitly approving of this. Or B. Being cluless to this happening at all. Maybe Open Sourcing is not such a good idea after all. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
![]() Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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04-18-2007 12:38
Basic business sense says don't expose yourself to significant financial loss in such a risky environment as Second Life. That is the moral of the story. Edit: Don't you think that Nietzsche would have loved Second Life? So true, Any internet investment is volatile. This unstable mess of a world is even more so. *flees to transfer remaining balance to Paypal* _____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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Brenda Connolly
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04-18-2007 12:43
Basic business sense says don't expose yourself to significant financial loss in such a risky environment as Second Life. That is the moral of the story. Edit: Don't you think that Nietzsche would have loved Second Life? Agreed. However not all of us are here to be in business. I can rationalize just about anything, but I can't spin this into anything postive. It just plain stinks. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
![]() Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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04-18-2007 12:43
ceera please show me where on that site it shows every item you own? from everything ive seen its only items set for sale Opt-In: this option allows you to list all objects you own within search results for your avatar Read it on their site here. To ESC's credit, it does seem that removal of information from their website is immediate if you opt out. At least my entries vanished as soon as I touched the opt-out sign and chose to opt out. _____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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Darien Caldwell
Registered User
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Posts: 3,127
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04-18-2007 12:49
I'm going to create a bot that conducts a test on every AV it meets, and if it's determined they are a bot (not responding to it's questions means automatically that you are indeed a bot), it will orbit you to 4 billion meters. You can of course opt out of this *service* by depositing 50,000L into my kiosk which I shall have moving to random points ever hour. You can find out the latest location by querying my bot.
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Tyci Kenzo
K2 Owner and Designer
![]() Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 285
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04-18-2007 12:51
as soon as i have time i may opt out im still undecided, it shows a few items i have sitting out not in vendors and it has items ive sold that people are reselling in the boxes i originally made...i wont opt in if it shows all my items although everything sitting out is vendors and store stuff everything else is in my spouses name
they are in beta so maybe they will read all these posts and change items _____________________
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Brenda Connolly
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04-18-2007 12:53
I'm going to create a bot that conducts a test on every AV it meets, and if it's determined they are a bot (not responding to it's questions means automatically that you are indeed a bot), it will orbit you to 4 billion meters. You can of course opt out of this *service* by depositing 50,000L into my kiosk which I shall have moving to random points ever hour. You can find out the latest location by querying my bot. ![]() If you need money for R and D let me know......... _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
Forseti Svarog
ESC
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Posts: 1,730
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04-18-2007 13:09
I am sorry this happened, and it is certainly not the intent of the search service to enable this activity. Other posters are correct however, that items listed for sale are vulnerable and "swooping" like this -- whether for land or for objects -- has always been an issue in Second Life. A "sell object X to avatar Y" has long been a requested feature. I am surprised this happened because the search database is not being refreshed that quickly (save for opt-outs, which are immediate), so I am curious to know if the items were left out for sale in the open for a long period of time.
If you ban Grid Shepherd from the parcel where the items will be left out, this should no longer be a concern, but please do be aware that your items will remain vulnerable to swooping. Ceera, we are working out bugs, and yes at the launch of the search service there were items that were listed as "for sale" due to a Linden Lab bug but we've tried to remove all of those. If you ban Grid Shepherd from your plot, or opt-out from the service, it should not matter where Grid Shephard goes on a public sim -- your items should not be included in results. The reason why we ask people to opt-out in-world is that this is the only way we can verify an avatar's identity, otherwise people could play all sorts of games. People have long asked for a better search engine for SL, and merchants have long asked for an easier way for customers to discover a product. You know that the only group that can effectively get the word out to a large number of Second Lifers is Linden Lab through system messages. We are doing our best to experiment with a solution, and it is evolving. There is an interesting debate going on right now as to how SL is similar or dissimilar to the Web, where you can put up a personal blog or website hosted by an ISP (as LL hosts SL land) and Google will search it. If you felt this was sprung upon you out of the blue, I apologize. We *are* reading the emails sent into allears - at - sheeplabs.com, but cannot respond to every one. Forseti Svarog, ESC |
Brenda Connolly
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04-18-2007 13:13
It would have been nice if there was some sort of announcement nmade that you were rolling out this "service" and how we could be disassociated form it, BEFORE you initiated it.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
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Zazas Oz
Rufeena Fashion Designer
![]() Join date: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 517
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Never sell for $0L
04-18-2007 13:20
My Partner, friends and I always sold items between us for $1L. Even if you did $10L its not a lot and as it was said by several you can always pay the money back after. Now that bots can search for $0L it makes even more sense.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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04-18-2007 13:21
From what I can see, it is able to scan an entire sim while staying in one position. It probably rezzes probes similar to how the Mysti tool does it. I am basing this on looking at the results from my island. Stand in the middle of a sim, surrounded by other sims, set your draw distance to 384 and you can scan 9 sims without ever moving. The bot just moves its "camera" around, it doesn't really have a need to move from place to place. I'm not entirely convinced that an isolated island that is marked private is private at all either. It only means you can't tp there, not that a bot can't spy on it with a detached "camera". It is incapable of listing anything for sale by vending scripts. Even single-prim vendors that only sell one thing. So 95% of the stuff that I sell can't be listed by it at all. (Edited since Forseti made a post in the thread) |
Colette Meiji
Registered User
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Posts: 15,556
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04-18-2007 13:23
I am sorry this happened, and it is certainly not the intent of the search service to enable this activity. Other posters are correct however, that items listed for sale are vulnerable and "swooping" like this -- whether for land or for objects -- has always been an issue in Second Life. A "sell object X to avatar Y" has long been a requested feature. I am surprised this happened because the search database is not being refreshed that quickly (save for opt-outs, which are immediate), so I am curious to know if the items were left out for sale in the open for a long period of time. If you ban Grid Shepherd from the parcel where the items will be left out, this should no longer be a concern, but please do be aware that your items will remain vulnerable to swooping. Ceera, we are working out bugs, and yes at the launch of the search service there were items that were listed as "for sale" due to a Linden Lab bug but we've tried to remove all of those. If you ban Grid Shepherd from your plot, or opt-out from the service, it should not matter where Grid Shephard goes on a public sim -- your items should not be included in results. The reason why we ask people to opt-out in-world is that this is the only way we can verify an avatar's identity, otherwise people could play all sorts of games. People have long asked for a better search engine for SL, and merchants have long asked for an easier way for customers to discover a product. You know that the only group that can effectively get the word out to a large number of Second Lifers is Linden Lab through system messages. We are doing our best to experiment with a solution, and it is evolving. There is an interesting debate going on right now as to how SL is similar or dissimilar to the Web, where you can put up a personal blog or website hosted by an ISP (as LL hosts SL land) and Google will search it. If you felt this was sprung upon you out of the blue, I apologize. We *are* reading the emails sent into allears - at - sheeplabs.com, but cannot respond to every one. Forseti Svarog, ESC I dont think by better search engine people meant => something that will search all of peoples rezzed belongings for items for sale. What they meant was a search engine more responsive to keyword searches ala Google. The whole idea of a service that requires people to jump through hoops to opt out - when they should have been opted out by default is thoughtless and irresponsible. Id wish you luck - but honestly I hope this search bot system dies the horrible death its privacy invading concept deserves. |
Alazarin Mondrian
Teh Trippy Hippie Dragon
![]() Join date: 4 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,549
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04-18-2007 13:28
Great, so Sheep Labs gets a list of everything everyone has rezzed in SL whether we agree to it or not. So when will the Sheep Labs people publish a list of every single object they have rezzed in-world? Their default half opted-in status is major suckage. Talk about one-sided plunder!
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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04-18-2007 13:34
People have long asked for a better search engine for SL, and merchants have long asked for an easier way for customers to discover a product. There is also no excuse for not knowing about the bug that affects items marked for sale after purchase which has been around for close to a full year, nor for not realizing that an auto opt-in scheme has a wide range of implications for people you felt no need to consult. |
Darien Caldwell
Registered User
![]() Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
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04-18-2007 13:34
If you need money for R and D let me know......... I'm opening a 30,000,000L IPO on the WSE, buy heavily!! ![]() |
Susanne Pascale
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 371
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04-18-2007 13:39
I am sorry this happened, and it is certainly not the intent of the search service to enable this activity. Other posters are correct however, that items listed for sale are vulnerable and "swooping" like this -- whether for land or for objects -- has always been an issue in Second Life. A "sell object X to avatar Y" has long been a requested feature. I am surprised this happened because the search database is not being refreshed that quickly (save for opt-outs, which are immediate), so I am curious to know if the items were left out for sale in the open for a long period of time. If you ban Grid Shepherd from the parcel where the items will be left out, this should no longer be a concern, but please do be aware that your items will remain vulnerable to swooping. Ceera, we are working out bugs, and yes at the launch of the search service there were items that were listed as "for sale" due to a Linden Lab bug but we've tried to remove all of those. If you ban Grid Shepherd from your plot, or opt-out from the service, it should not matter where Grid Shephard goes on a public sim -- your items should not be included in results. The reason why we ask people to opt-out in-world is that this is the only way we can verify an avatar's identity, otherwise people could play all sorts of games. People have long asked for a better search engine for SL, and merchants have long asked for an easier way for customers to discover a product. You know that the only group that can effectively get the word out to a large number of Second Lifers is Linden Lab through system messages. We are doing our best to experiment with a solution, and it is evolving. There is an interesting debate going on right now as to how SL is similar or dissimilar to the Web, where you can put up a personal blog or website hosted by an ISP (as LL hosts SL land) and Google will search it. If you felt this was sprung upon you out of the blue, I apologize. We *are* reading the emails sent into allears - at - sheeplabs.com, but cannot respond to every one. Forseti Svarog, ESC Be advised, this is NOT a service. It is just another example of a SL scam which will go on and on and on with LL doing their usual NOTHING about it. Forseti, if you are REALLY REALLY serious about the "opt out" how about making it alittle bit easier to opt out of your "service." If its REALLY a service how about having an "opt in" so that those who want your "service" can avail themselves of it and those of who don't, need not be bothered with wasting our somewhat valuable time jumping through various hoops to not be pestered by this? I seriously doubt if ANYONE from LL reads the forum anymore. They seriously seem to do all they can to insulate themselves from customer dissatisfaction. However, in the OFF chance they do I need to point out to them that their manifest desire to land the rich and lucerative corporate accounts is doomed to failure if they keep up the present idea of customer service. The corporate accounts will want a stable and reliable platforn; the corporate accounts will want customer service that exceeds the present non existant to cavalier excuses for customer service that currently exist; the corporate accounts will want some sort of protection against landbot scams and this latest "steal the property of others" scam. In fact, I am an attorney in RL. As a happenstance I was talking to a client and the subject of computer games up. She mentioned SL [she is an executive employed by a business who is thinking about an SL presence]. I told her, honestly, that it is a wonderful and entertaining platform for fun BUT with the problems of inventory loss, rampant land bots and this latest ESC scam I would hesitate to reccomend SL to any RL business. I think it would be EXTREMELY foolish for RL businesses to get involved in SL right now, except for their own entertainment. There are too many problems and LL does not seem to have any inclination to fix them. |
Beebo Brink
Uppity Alt
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 574
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04-18-2007 13:39
The whole idea of a service that requires people to jump through hoops to opt out - when they should have been opted out by default is thoughtless and irresponsible. Ironically, given the recent severe drop in my sales, I wouldn't mind having my products listed online, but not a single item of mine shows up on ESC results, even though I have four stores on three sims. If the use of a simple poster vendor creates a de facto "opt out", many SL merchants are put at a significant disadvantage. The search results give the impression of being comprehensive, so shoppers may never realize that there are many more products for sale in SL than they can see. Or even if they are aware, they may simply buy the ones listed by ESC because of the convenience of what is accessible now, without additional searching by other means. On top the of the Search issues involving Mature land, this is yet another financial hit for small merchants. _____________________
www.BrazenWomen.com
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
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04-18-2007 13:43
What they meant was a search engine more responsive to keyword searches ala Google. As Meade says in her signature, please feel free to vote for SVC-86 to get AND and NOT added to search. |
Alazarin Mondrian
Teh Trippy Hippie Dragon
![]() Join date: 4 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,549
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04-18-2007 13:45
First small landowners were raped by clubs with campbots. Then content creators were raped by copybots. After that the general userbase was raped by landbots and now Sheep Shagger Labs wants in for another round. And you know what what pisses me off the most? No lube!!! Not even a smidgeon of oleaginous corporate jive. I'm surprised that any Second Life resident can even sit at their computer.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
![]() Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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04-18-2007 13:50
Ironically, given the recent severe drop in my sales, I wouldn't mind having my products listed online, but not a single item of mine shows up on ESC results, even though I have four stores on three sims. If the use of a simple poster vendor creates a de facto "opt out", many SL merchants are put at a significant disadvantage. The search results give the impression of being comprehensive, so shoppers may never realize that there are many more products for sale in SL than they can see. Or even if they are aware, they may simply buy the ones listed by ESC because of the convenience of what is accessible now, without additional searching by other means. On top the of the Search issues involving Mature land, this is yet another financial hit for small merchants. My sales have taken a big hit too. I dont think this service will help - I doubt hardley anyone cept the scavengers have heard of it. And a system that lets you not have a private life seperate from your business (if you forget and mark an item for sale) is troublesome. |
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
![]() Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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04-18-2007 14:03
First small landowners were raped by clubs with campbots. Then content creators were raped by copybots. After that the general userbase was raped by landbots and now Sheep Shagger Labs wants in for another round. And you know what what pisses me off the most? No lube!!! Not even a smidgeon of oleaginous corporate jive. I'm surprised that any Second Life resident can even sit at their computer. Well it ain't easy sometimes. coco _____________________
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Barney Boomslang
Steam & Magic Alchemist
Join date: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 20
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ESC: get a clue and for once do the right thing
04-18-2007 14:15
Could please all those posters who come with "you set it to L$ 0 selling, so live with it" stop and stuff there faces with some food, so we don#t have to hear this really shitty argument any more?
It's a fact that inplace transfer of no-copy objects has to be done with selling/buying. It's a fact that the original poster said the sim wasn't public in the sense that it was announced or anything - so the chances that some user came up to the sim was rather small. That they _did_ come up to the sim was a _direct_ result of the ESC search. And this is _exactly_ the scenario Prokofy posted in his comment on the ESC search. Don't tell me that everybody has to know that it could have been snarfed that way - most ppl won't care about outworld services, and the ESC search is _not_ an SL service, it is just a (badly!) implemented hack by some Company that wants to throw it's name around again. The way it is set up now, it only provides a disservice to the SL community out of several reasons: - people are not aware that their content is scanned and publicized. And that is a _big_ problem, it's the whole reason why people like Prok or me insist on a pure opt-in solution for this, because only then the owner will be aware of his objects be listed per default. - the scanner only allows (undocumented!) opt-out for sim-owners (by banning the bot) or avatars (by jumping through some ESC hoops, mind you! I can't do the sensible thing and prevent object listing on _my_ place, no, I have to go to _their_ place to do it.). It doesn't allow per-object exclusion. This is really stupid, because even the rather old robots.txt protocol for websites provides for partial exclusion. Had they done their homework, they would have thought about this. - the scanner only scans for for-sale-objects. Not vendors. Don't give me the shit about "planned for the future" - you can't look inside vendors, that's why you don't scan them. You just plain don't have a good idea to do it. So why implement a half-hearted hack in the first place? The way I see it, it wasn't even intended as a "service" - it was just some hack to throw out to gloat about "we are the search engine coders in SL". And for this ESC marketing campaign, we now have to cope with another stupidly implemented hack. The only sensible way to react from ESC would be to pull the plug, apologize and restart the experiment, now with a thought-out concept. And please, stop the "opt-in dies at birth" - ESC itself runs one of the two big SL sales sites and that's a pure opt-in solution and it is all but dead at birth ... This all just smells of techs gone wrong and now frantically trying to argue for their "cool service" when instead it is clear that it is a dumb idea the way it is set up now. And before someone throws with "you are just non-tech" stuff in my direction: I'm doing IT works for far too long time and have done my share of open source programming. But I am _pissed_ at techs running out with not well thought out hacks without even _once_ thinking about the implications, and when shown real world problem scenarios, even when shown real world exploits, they just point the other directions and pull up absurd non-arguments instead of _once_ doing the right thing. |
Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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A Modest Proposal
04-18-2007 14:18
BTW you can use this tool for some mild spying if you want. Key in names of random avatars and find out where they own land based on what objects they have forgotten to remove the price tag from. Find out what kinds of things they're into in their 'private' skybox, based on what's been accidentally left 'for sale'. -Atashi Let me suggest something for SL residents to do proactively about this problem. The participants will find it fun and perhaps quite profitable. It is called Returning Their Karma To Them (until someone suggests a similar name with a catchy acronym): 1. Go and USE the Electric Sheep search "service!" That's what they want you to do, right? 2. After you have rescued your own items from unwanted sale, note this sentence brought down here from the quote above: "Works for Lindens too, lots of objects in linden village still marked for sale." Go buy up every Linden object listed for sale at an unreasonably low price! Start with the L$0s. It's perfectly legal under the TOS, after all. 3. Go to every large corporation's in-world places and go on the same fun buying binge. 4. Scan for everyone involved in any way with Electric Sheep, continue your buying. Remember, only unreasonably cheap prices, now! 5. Contribute here further suggestions of people whose negligence, "incompetence," misfeasance, nonfeasance, malfeasance, or just plain dishonesty has contributed to this mess. See what fun stuff they have "for sale." Go for it. 6. Boycott anything and everything that has anything to do with Electric Sheep and nothing to do with our fun buying spree. 7. Sit back and watch how long it takes LL to implement the helpful suggestions in this thread and come up with new fixes of their own. For this step I suggest a stopwatch that marks time in hundredths of a second. |