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Automated Burglary

Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
04-18-2007 10:45
From: Ceera Murakami

I have also opted out of their search now with every account that I own, and I plan encourage all my friends to do the same. I was very annoyed that to do this, I had to go in-person to their sim, had to cross 2/3 of the sim, and then had to maneuver into a third floor room in an building to locate the sign that allows me to opt out! No way to do it at the website. No way to do it from the default teleport point for their sim. You have to hunt for the blasted opt-out sign!

.

Wait a miniute! YOU HAVE TO GO IN WORLD TO OPT OUT OF THIS SCHEME!!!!! :eek:That's the biggest load of garbage I've seen yet here!
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
04-18-2007 10:46
Rock, I actually have had the coordinates to the foot of my bed advertised on a shared list of "cool skyboxes to visit." No, it isn't right, but the reality is that you have to not get caught up in the "should" and "should not" and deal with reality. The reality is that there is no guarantee of privacy. Most people are far too polite to take advantage of other people's privacy but there is always a contingent of people who won't think twice. There will always be scam artists, opportunists and thieves - and LL isn't going to do anything to stop them, they've made this clear. So, it is up to you to protect yourself and your interests in SL. You can never assume that you are private and you can never assume that an opportunist isn't lurking around the next corner looking for their next "find." Ban the ESC bot all you want, this particular cat is already out of the bag and the ethically compromised of SL are already all over it. It won't be long before there are multiple bots of different names, just like with land bots.

It sucks, and we all agree that it sucks, but this is the virtual world that we've chosen to inhabit. You must protect yourself and your interests because no else will.
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Rocky Rutabaga
isn't wearing underwear™
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 291
04-18-2007 10:47
From: Arksun Tone
In this particular instance though, the rl equivalent would be leaving your car on the driveway, with the keys in the ignition, so anyone could just take it. So don't act too surprised when someone does.

In this particular instance, without Stalkbot, the item would be invisible to everyone except an AV who happened to be within clicking distance of the object. So the RL example would be to leave the car in your driveway with the keys in it and then post it on eBay and Craig’s list and say "come and get it, the keys are in the ignition."

This is madness.

How can the average person enjoy SL now without perfect and instant knowledge of every new bot that comes along and forces us to be part of its game?

LL has allowed others to change the rules of Second Life AND without telling anyone that they have changed.

How can you enjoy playing a game when the rules are unknown or keep getting changed without your knowledge that they have changed or understanding that they CAN be changed? Unless you're playing "Mao" you quit playing the game.

How could you live in a country where the laws change without you being given the opportunity to learn (and agree to obey) the new laws?

I did not agree to play the Stealbot game. I should not have to be clairvoyant to know I can OPT OUT.

The RL example is to be raped at gunpoint and afterwards the cops telling you that if you just would have said the words "Sheep suck" he would have not done it.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
04-18-2007 10:50
From: Brenda Connolly
Wait a miniute! YOU HAVE TO GO IN WORLD TO OPT OUT OF THIS SCHEME!!!!! :eek:That's the biggest load of garbage I've seen yet here!

I agree. You have to go in-person, with each individual account, to sheep island 106/228/32 to opt out.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-18-2007 10:52
From: Ceera Murakami
I agree. You have to go in-person, with each individual account, to sheep island 106/228/32 to opt out.


Makes you wonder who's alt is doing some of the theft.
Sys Slade
Registered User
Join date: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 626
04-18-2007 10:55
Still, it's better than the opt out process for land listings :p
Atashi Toshihiko
Frequently Befuddled
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 1,423
04-18-2007 10:56
From what I can see, it is able to scan an entire sim while staying in one position. It probably rezzes probes similar to how the Mysti tool does it. I am basing this on looking at the results from my island. It has identified an object for sale in 'lot #1' which is the north-west corner of the island. The object in question is located in the south east corner and at 752m altitude.

So while the bot itself might have been at one corner of the sim, it's detecting objects at the absolute opposite corner and at the upper limits of stable build altitude. So parcel-bans probably are completely ineffective. Estate-bans ought to work though since the bot wouldn't be able to even enter the estate to begin with.

BTW you can use this tool for some mild spying if you want. Key in names of random avatars and find out where they own land based on what objects they have forgotten to remove the price tag from. Find out what kinds of things they're into in their 'private' skybox, based on what's been accidentally left 'for sale'. Works for Lindens too, lots of objects in linden village still marked for sale.

-Atashi
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
04-18-2007 10:59
The sheepbot doc says..
From: someone
The contents of public simulators are examined (generally once every 24 hours, though this will vary as we make improvements), and any objects marked "for sale" are made available through this service.

Do we think it's scanning more often that that? I find it a little hard to believe that it's finding things for sale as soon as they go on sale.

Landbots can find land quickly because they're a mechanism in place for people to search for land for sale. There isn't, AFAIK, a similar mechanism for finding objects for sale.
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Tyci Kenzo
K2 Owner and Designer
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 285
04-18-2007 11:00
From: Amity Slade
Show me the information that was reasonably available to me, prior to reading this thread, that should have warned me that, the moment I set something as for sale, in an empty place, with no one around and no reason to expect anyone to come around, that something could have instantaneously teleported there to buy it.

To call a particular piece of knowledge common sense, it must be commonly known.


is the place your putting something out for sale at 0L accesable by everyone? or is it a private sim that no one can get into

if its a sim that anyone can get into then to me its common sense to not leave stuff out for sale that you dont want to sell

i get newbies on my land constantly, im on a private sim that they cant access just by flying around they would have to purposely pick the grp of islands and teleport there so therefore i know not to leave anything for sale i dont want to sell

how is that NOT common sense?
im not comparing this to anything rl wise because this is not rl

the website that is showing things for sale is not an instant thing it will not list something you put up for sale right away i have several things that have sold over a week ago taht are still listed on their site so i know they are not constantly updating it
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Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
04-18-2007 11:09
From: Rocky Rutabaga
In this particular instance, without Stalkbot, the item would be invisible to everyone except an AV who happened to be within clicking distance of the object. So the RL example would be to leave the car in your driveway with the keys in it and then post it on eBay and Craig’s list and say "come and get it, the keys are in the ignition."

This is madness.

How can the average person enjoy SL now without perfect and instant knowledge of every new bot that comes along and forces us to be part of its game?

LL has allowed others to change the rules of Second Life AND without telling anyone that they have changed.

How can you enjoy playing a game when the rules are unknown or keep getting changed without your knowledge that they have changed or understanding that they CAN be changed? Unless you're playing "Mao" you quit playing the game.

How could you live in a country where the laws change without you being given the opportunity to learn (and agree to obey) the new laws?

I did not agree to play the Stealbot game. I should not have to be clairvoyant to know I can OPT OUT.

The RL example is to be raped at gunpoint and afterwards the cops telling you that if you just would have said the words "Sheep suck" he would have not done it.
And how many more of these freelance sites are out there looking to rip us off? I generally agree with The Providers being hands of....but even God steps in every so often and says "Cut the crap" people.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-18-2007 11:11
From: Brenda Connolly
And how many more of these freelance sites are out there looking to rip us off? I generally agree with The Providers being hands of....but even God steps in every so often and says "Cut the crap" people.



Raining again today hunni ? ;)
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-18-2007 11:13
From: Sys Slade
Still, it's better than the opt out process for land listings :p


GREAT POINT

We just need it possible for people to opt out of land listings. Make it the default setting - Land Swooping would be drastically reduced.
Brenda Connolly
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Posts: 25,000
04-18-2007 11:13
From: Colette Meiji
Raining again today hunni ? ;)
Actually a bit, with more on the way tomorrow.........
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
04-18-2007 11:15
From: Ceera Murakami
... the parcel name of a parcel that was not mine! So it was on someone else's land when it scanned my lamp on my land.

More likely, it's a bug in the sheepbot or LL code which it uses to find out who owns the land at a given spot.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-18-2007 11:17
From: Brenda Connolly
Actually a bit, with more on the way tomorrow.........


From: Bill Cosby as Noah
I tell you I've had enough of this stuff I tell you what I'm gonna do
I'm letting all these animals out
And I'm gonna burn down this Ark
And I'm going to Florida somewhere
'Cause you haven't done nothin'
I'm sick and tired of all this mess
You foolin' around And you haven't done nothing!
(thunder)
And you got it rainin'
It's not a shower is it?
Ok Lord me and you right
'Cause I knew it all the time



:p
Rocky Rutabaga
isn't wearing underwear™
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 291
04-18-2007 11:25
From: Tyci Kenzo
i get newbies on my land constantly, im on a private sim that they cant access just by flying around they would have to purposely pick the grp of islands and teleport there so therefore i know not to leave anything for sale i dont want to sell

how is that NOT common sense?

Is it common sense to go anywhere and everywhere in SL and expect to be able to buy it? For free?

Would it be common sense for a person who wants to sell his/her bed to set it for sale, NOT advertise it, and then sit back and expect people to TP to their bedroom to buy it?????

Is it common sense to expect some of your personal items to somehow be set to "for sale", without you consciously doing it, and to be set for sale at $0?

Do the newbs have some kind of common sense that tells them they can buy any prim they see? I sure didn't have that kind of common sense to try to buy someone else's stuff.

Common sense tells me that other peoples' stuff is their stuff, unless there's an overt sign on it that says: "FOR SALE." If you want it and don't see the sign, common sense would suggest you ask the person, "May I buy that from you?" If its set at $0 and it's a Platinum SexGen bed, common sense would tell you they made a mistake or else the thing is borked and does not work.

I guess the NEW common sense is that everything is up for grabs, so right click every prim and buy it.

We may have no privacy in SL, but my sense (and it's certainly common) was that I had the choice in what I wanted to take part and what I did not. OPT OUT forces me into this debacle (and the next, and the next) and that's wrong.
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
04-18-2007 11:25
When I first heard of this, I argued that ESC should have made it opt-in. The counter-argument I got was that no, because then not enough people would have tested it for it to work.

So - in the name of testing their thing, which they thought people would not want to test, we all had to be in whether we wanted to or not.

That's like arguing that your service will be so unpopular, no one will want to join it, so you have to make them join.

I think that was wrong, anyway - people who sell things would have been happy to join! I think a free search engine for sellers would be something merchants would LOVE. I know I would have joined it right away! I'm thrilled to have my items listed on there for sale.

This was just a lazy way to do it. If they had told people about it, many, many merchants would have signed up for it. They just skipped that step, and went ahead and signed everyone up for it, because . . . I guess because they feel above-it-all.

All these things should always be opt-in, not opt-out.

People should not have to become aware, slowly, that the search bot exists and then have to take steps to opt out.

Then we get stories like the OP's, which should never have happened, and would never have happened, if ESC had done this the responsible way in the first place, instead of doing it with a sense of presumption and entitlement.

And no - the bot doesn't have to be on your land to find and list your items.

I would add that the rationalization some have used that no one really has any privacy so it is okay at all times and in all ways to invade it is a piss-poor one. This is nothing more than the argument that if something can be done, it's okay to do it.

The same thing applies to real life, as well. Technology exists there to invade privacy, even in your own home. But laws also inhibit the wanton use of such technology.

Here, we have no laws, and the Lindens never met a bot they didn't like. But we do have the ability to object when our privacy is invaded, and to object that we are required to jump through hoops just to get out of someone's bot system, and to object if we find ourselves getting ripped off by something we didn't even know existed.

coco
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
04-18-2007 11:32
You're not limited to searching just by name. You can enter:

price:0

and everything priced at $L0 will return. Rock's stuff would have displayed in one group of items on the results, so it would be easy to TP from spot to spot and grab the items. Anybody could do this, no evidence that it was an inside job. (he'd already know that by his transaction logs - he already knows who bought everything)

From: Dnali Anabuki
From: Mia Darracq
One thing is that it may have been an inside job too as you have to search under a person's name so people were specifically searching under Rock's name. That implies some sort of knowledge that he had made the mistake in the first place unless he also sells furniture.

Anyway search under your name and see what if finds for you. Also ban Grid Shepard on your land to be very safe which will work until they create a new alt under a new name.

While you're at it, quit any groups that include financial liabilities as part of all members abilities. That's a bad thing waiting to happen especially if they sell land and you suddenly get the part of the profit. There is a high price for ignorance these days in SL.

http://search.sheeplabs.com/core/search/
Sys Slade
Registered User
Join date: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 626
04-18-2007 11:32
From: Rocky Rutabaga
Is it common sense to go anywhere and everywhere in SL and expect to be able to buy it? For free?.......

I think the point was that it's common sense not to leave things lying around for those who don't respect privacy and have no morals to come and grab.
If you believe nobody will ever try and get something for free, mistake or not, then that's just naive.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
04-18-2007 11:35
From: Sys Slade
I think the point was that it's common sense not to leave things lying around for those who don't respect privacy and have no morals to come and grab.
If you believe nobody will ever try and get something for free, mistake or not, then that's just naive.


This is true

But to most people in SL that common sense wouldnt include someone with a spy bot is going to come and search through all your rezzed objects then put all the ones you have for sale in a database somewhere that youve never heard of.
Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
04-18-2007 11:38
Little remembered fact: there was, at one time, a check box on the big map window for "objects for sale." It was possible to cruise the grid looking for items mistakenly set for sale prior to the sheep bot. I don't know when that feature went away, but I do remember using it a few times out of curiousity.
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Tyci Kenzo
K2 Owner and Designer
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 285
04-18-2007 11:39
Is it common sense to go anywhere and everywhere in SL and expect to be able to buy it? For free?

***alot of people feel that way, ive seen shops that dont look like shops till you go in and see items for sale, i never said the people that bought the items for 0L were smart or using common sense

Would it be common sense for a person who wants to sell his/her bed to set it for sale, NOT advertise it, and then sit back and expect people to TP to their bedroom to buy it?????

**** since ad's have been borked and not working lately i know plenty that dont use them anymore

Is it common sense to expect some of your personal items to somehow be set to "for sale", without you consciously doing it, and to be set for sale at $0?

***its really easy to check things when you first place them out

Do the newbs have some kind of common sense that tells them they can buy any prim they see? I sure didn't have that kind of common sense to try to buy someone else's stuff.

***most newbs dont realize that this is not a game like sims or wow or any other mmorpg out there they dont get the concept of sl in its entirity and quite a few of them seeing boxes of freebies and such everywhere feel that everyone should just give them anything for free...im not saying they are acting right but more and more of the new people i see want to be rude..go anywhere and get everything they want handed to them

Common sense tells me that other peoples' stuff is their stuff, unless there's an overt sign on it that says: "FOR SALE." If you want it and don't see the sign, common sense would suggest you ask the person, "May I buy that from you?" If its set at $0 and it's a Platinum SexGen bed, common sense would tell you they made a mistake or else the thing is borked and does not work.

**** i still dont understand why you would not check and double check your items as you place them out? i have a shop up above my home and i always check and recheck everythign i place out so i know its right and no one gets anything for too much or too little, if i was somewhere and there were bunches of things for free i might question it but ive also been around awhile

I guess the NEW common sense is that everything is up for grabs, so right click every prim and buy it.

We may have no privacy in SL, but my sense (and it's certainly common) was that I had the choice in what I wanted to take part and what I did not. OPT OUT forces me into this debacle (and the next, and the next) and that's wrong.

****i agree that the person with this webpage should have an opt in option and make it out by default but i dont see any way of stopping them or anyone else from doing the same thing it just means we have to be more careful and more vigilant of what we do
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
04-18-2007 11:47
From: Sys Slade
I think the point was that it's common sense not to leave things lying around for those who don't respect privacy and have no morals to come and grab.
If you believe nobody will ever try and get something for free, mistake or not, then that's just naive.


But I like the fact that so many of us are built for a world much nicer than the one that actually exists. Gives me hope. The finer shades of right and wrong like profiting from someone's innocence and/or ignorance may be brought to light by discussions like this. It means that the profit made this way isn't completely without another form of cost because many people will not think it a good thing. As well there is the possibility that it leads to the justification that since other people do it, its alright for me to do it. Common sense says to me that would be the thin edge of the wedge that leads to a downward spiral where one's behaviour is tied to the lowest common denominator rather than one's conscience.

Common sense is in the eye of the beholder I find. I think it is common sense to protest this kind of action otherwise structures like laws and ideas like justice would never have come into being in the first place.
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
04-18-2007 12:16
Speaking as a merchant, I would not, and did not, want to be part of ESC's experimental database. I opted out as soon as I read their site and checked it out.

Why?

In the first place, when I checked what it had already scanned of mine, it was patheticly useless. It found a lamp in my bedroom that was NOT supposed to be for sale, and a bookcase in one mall location that WAS supposed to be for sale. It completely missed a couch, a lamp, a writing chair, a writing desk, a tiki torch and another bookcase at my largest store, that had been in-world for about a week. And that handful of items at that one store and the bookcase at that one other mall are the ONLY things that should have been clickable to buy directly in-world, in all of SL.

The lamp in my bedroom was pre-set so I could rez it to sell a copy to someone, and I had forgotten to uncheck 'for sale' after I rezzed it. The price was what it should have been, however, and it was set to sell copy, so no one could have stolen it. But anyone following that link would still TP to the foot of my bed!

It is incapable of discriminating between items placed in a store and items that you are preparing for sale, or items you are merely transferring. If I could limit it to ONLY search items that were in specific sims or on specific parcels, or to exclude specific parcels or sims, then the rest of my prims might be safe. As it stands now, even my private workspace in a skybox isn't safe from being scanned. And I don't want work in progress to be snatched away before I am done pricing it.

It is incapable of listing anything for sale by vending scripts. Even single-prim vendors that only sell one thing. So 95% of the stuff that I sell can't be listed by it at all.

In short, if you neither opt in or opt out, the main thing it IS useful for is taking advantage of other people's mistakes in pricing or transferring things.

I fail to see why ANYONE would opt in, and allow 100% of their owned items to be listed in a public database, for sale or not. Talk about a stalker's dream tool! Opt in, and anyone on the Internet can locate any object you own and have rezzed in-world, and can get a complete list of those items! All your pose balls, kinky toys, where your homes in SL are. Great way to ID every parcel that you own... What a massive invasion of privacy. And for what? What possible use is it to make a list of all my in-world items available to the public?
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Tender Pintens
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 26
The bottom line
04-18-2007 12:17
The bottom line is SL is an open game.
With an open game the possibilities are endless.
LL gives the tools and we do what we can with them, good or bad.
THE PROBLEM here is that linden does not build in enough standard code like llmoney and things that can not be tampered with, as well as enough built in tools.
Most everything is handled by groups, weather to rent a space, collaborate on a build, run a club, do things with friends etc. It is an overused, overpowered, feature in many cases used to only satisfy one requirement with the rest of the powers not only not being used, or even wanted.

More features need to be made available so that people do not have to use work arrounds to use features that should have and should be implemented in game.

This guy might have released this site in the wrong manner but it does not prevent ANYONE from making a very black hat version of this. The person could just have easily made this bot covert and never even offered this to any residents and made a fortune. If its not happening already. Its not his fault for creating the site because he is given the tools and code to do so. Just as it is not the prim owners fault for using $L0 items so he can buy back his furniture and retain its position set by his partner. The fault here is with LL for not providing enough "common" tools to avoid exploitable work arrounds.
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