Automated Burglary

wow

Im really surprized this is how you chose to respond.

wow

heh i'm not i'm finding that people tend to react strangely in this game when confronted with logic who are from "the old school" or who are "bigger" then them in an SL sense. Its an enigma you can make perfect sense and argue that 2 +2 = 4 but if they say its equal to 5 watch out it better suddenly be equal to 5 or your a bad person and given a strange label.

Making sense and speaking up which is in fact a good quality in the real world is frowned upon here. What your supposed to do is love every idea everyone has especially if they are from a larger company and have more money then you and tell them they are right no matter what

Candor when it's least expected has that effect at times.

OK fair enough. But in my opinion only, the Internet is an Open Public Space. Second Life to me is open within the platform, but the platform is semi private in the sense that we all had to make an extra step to join it. That being said, I think courtesy dictates you should have made a better effort to communicate this,especially since we were all unwittingly made beta testers in this project.

Why does Candor matter? Thats not what I see in his response

You're evidently are too new around these forums to see what he just did.



Wow

I left another online game because it was bot INFESTED. Bots are never good, in any game, if they are not intentional by the game developer, period.

I know exactly what he just said, and my newness in the forums doesn't mean my eyes aren't, and haven't been open. This entire thread has been about being victims of a non existent crime. All the fiasco back when Open Source was announced, again victims of an enemy which did not exist. Not on the level of FIC, but nonetheless.. Candor matters when it is the only thing left that works - attempts at rational thought and reasoned debate have all failed.

The only purpose of a bot in most online games, where the core activity is competition, is to help the player win, usually by cheating.

Second Life is more than just a game. It's a platform for interaction in ways only limited by our imagination. Bots can and do create valuable opportunities to enhance the experience. Yeah, we do have a few bots I'd rather didn't exist, but such is the nature of the platform. A really nice example is LibSL, which was used to enable a multi sim concert where the performers and the stage/set were cloned across all the sims, enabling many, many more people to see the concert than would have been possible without bots.

Bots are not inherently evil. Bots only do what their authors and/or users tell them to do.

Back before Prok was banned ..

The classic way used by the nasty to shout down Coco in the general forums was to start with a personal attack and then place guilt by association by naming Prok. It happened so many times it was really pathetic.

That Forsetti would stoop to the same old tactic now really says something. Considering he was a poster and forums participant then.

He told her hed give answers on Sunday - he forgot or just didnt. Its wednesday, She got impatient, sure. Maybe annoyed him with her last post.

The rest of his post is debateable - but to me its secondary to the style.

Your entitled to see it as Candor, of course.

actually zaphod what he just did was blow her off candor or not that is what just happened if you want to call the candor okay but that's not what that was lol

well in this game they are intentional but if misused its not good. There are harmful bots and not harmful ones. They are invented but unfortunately a lot of people misuse them and when they go unregulated they cause harm

presently the worste one is the bot that buys land because its simply too far for human beings to deal with. Humans who make errors dont have time to correct them plus there seems to be some kind of bugs that allowed the bots to in some cases buy land before it was properly listed or something. (hard to explain it I saw the screenies they are strange). IN any event its causing issues because we are humans and bots are well bots. Are they allowed in the game yes are they intended well since this entire world is made by us I would say yes its even intended. Are they evil by nature no but they are in some cases being abused so some kinda rule needs to be put in and over time hopefully one will be placed but until then ah well we have to live with it.

I don't think he's stooping to some low tactic. I think he just realizes that he and coco are just not going to see eye to eye on this thing. Thinking a little further on it, I would have to concede that such remarks would have been better made in private.

I can't believe it's stayed unlocked for so long. Unless anyone comes up with something new, I'm just going to post my final position on this issue and attempt to resist the urge to quip further.

I believe the following to be true ...

... That there is no right to "Freedom from Observation" in the design for secondlife, nor in the policy and ethical considerations dictated by ToS and CS. Private islands exist as a compromise for those that can afford them. I do not expect linden lab to budge on this.

... That esc has conducted themselves in accordance with both the spirit and the letter of secondlife's law (ToS) and code of ethics (CS) as they are written today, especially with regards to (lack of) privacy, disclosure and resource hogging.

... That the tos and cs are incomplete as is. General mention of when exporting data from secondlife is acceptable should be included.

... That linden lab will embrace an uncertain future that includes bots, cyborg/power-clients and integrated 3rd party services... and disregard requests for "Freedom from Observation" by non-private sim owners.

... That future bots and power-clients will create new, unforseen issues of "fairness", "privacy", "property", "resource hogging" and others. They will be dealt with in whatever way linden lab deems best, without regards to our 'concensus'. CopyBot -> DMCA, LandBot -> throttled-searches, SearchBot -> ?Policy Clarification?Tolerance?

... That I am, actually, "pleasantly surprised" by Forseti's response. I'm the insufferably arrogant one around here... dangit! I don't want competition from Coconaut.

... That if what I believe is wrong, that continuing on to 70+, 80+, 90+ pages of posts isn't likely to change my mind any further. I'll keep reading, on the off chance that someone really has a new angle to offer, but I think this dead horse is well and thoroughly beaten.

1k responses?

wowie that's gotta be some kinda record actually i just saw the 1k pop up

I find this very offensive and very insulting. I never called you "evil" or "rapacious," so that is a straw man.

I have "no professional victim style." Moreover, I scarcely see how you could possibly equate such, if it existed, to the clear and present questions I'm posing. Questions a number of others are posing here, too.

I have asked questions, and others have asked questions, and you can't/won't answer them. It's a simple as that.

Many of these questions aren't impossible to answer quickly.

For example (in case you haven't carefully read where I have repeated the questions in review form, over and over), the question about what you plan to do, if anything, to let the residents know that you are taking their data and publishing it on a web site.

Don't tell me it takes lawyers to answer that.

Or what data is collected and whether it stays in the system. I've posted the questions and the answers, a couple of times now, and invited you to correct me if I was wrong in interpreting you. You haven't corrected me, so I can figure that either (a) you didn't read my posts or (b) I was right in my interpretation.

The answer seems to be: Yes, you do collect all the data about everyone's objects for sale or not, and yes, it does stay in the system and is never erased. That is my interpretation of what you have said, and you haven't corrected me on it yet.

I'm not impressed about you being "up to your ears in work," for several reasons. First, the ESC team was off on a retreat, which meant our questions went unanswered before. Now you're back, so now what's the excuse?

Second, I don't think ESC's "work" has anything to do with any of us. And I think we are important.

Third, we all have "work." That doesn't mean we ignore people. If part of your work is doing something that affects everyone, then part of your work is dealing with the questions it raises, and in a timely fashion.

And finally, I think it would be of paramount importance as "work" to ESC that they not alienate SL residents. I think it is long past time you took a meeting on this issue of the discontent over your search here on the forums, and answered all concerns straightforwardly.

I suggest ESC start taking the SL residents seriously.

ESC has in fact alienated plenty of residents with this searchbot, yet none of you can manage to get around to answering simple questions, never mind the ones that might require you consult lawyers. Even the most direct, straighforward questions that I KNOW you know the answer to - such as about the data - you have failed to answer in a straightforward manner.

ESC has already burned the trust of a number of residents. The longer you go on not answering simple questions, the more that happens.

That is the fault of you and ESC - the question non-answerers - and not me, the question asker, or anyone else asking questions.

You may not want to engage with me, but that's still no excuse for not answering the questions.

Unless of course, you somehow think I'm the only one who is interested in the answers.

You ignored everyone at length in the other thread. I started off championing the whole searchbot (except the part about making people opt in), and wanting to be in it, and signed up for it myself. I helped Cory to figure out one of the glitches in it.

But - through being ignored long enough on that thread, and hearing all the problems others were having, I gradually came to agree with the OP on the whole thing. I kept saying wait for Forseti. Who basically never came.

And thus ESC has earned emnity from me on the searchbot thing where you had none previously.

Now you are expressing exasperation that I am actually still asking the questions.

Well, too bad.

Call me whatever you want to; I just want the answers, and I believe we deserve the answers.

IF anyone still needed to see evidence of ESC's supreme arrogance, they've got it right there, in that post of yours above.

coco

Actually, I missed the post where he said he'd get answers to us on Sunday, cause I don't remember that.

coco

I now believe:

... that I was wrong.

I yield the title.

There's no way I can compete with that degree of insufferable arrogance.

Your use of the "royal We" is admirable.

No he said on Sunday there were answers coming - he didnt give a date

Dude, you are such a glutton for punishment. Give it up already and join the rest of us at the bar throwing popcorn at the screen in response to the bloviating. This thread turned into the Springer show about 30 pages ago…

He called her out on the forums -

If it got a lil rough, he was asking for it.

Colette, I'll give you this -- that first paragraph could have been saved for a personal message, not a forum post. However, I wasn't trying to manipulate with a calculated response, if that's what you think, and I only raise prok because he's the most vocal opponent of what we're doing (he's usually the most vocal opponent of anything and everything we do and even some things we don't do but which he tries to lay at our feet (Copybot anyone?), at least on Second Life blogs -- less so on outsider blogs where prok tries to cultivate a different image). I'm just weary of her insinuations, and not just over this matter. Very often, when prok is on the attack, she's in the peanut gallery clapping.

By the way, back in that era, I never participated in any shunning of prok or accusations of alt-dom to cocoa, as a matter of fact, I had a huge amount of sympathy for what she went through. She knows that, but chooses to write at me the way she does. Fine. Her perogative.

Perhaps I should not have responded as a resident, but in the kind of bland corporate speak everyone expects.

The royal "we" because I am not the only one asking these questions. I actually thought about that pronoun, and decided on "we."

Or do you think that I am the only one asking these questions?

You want a run through my "insufferable arrogance," check that long now closed thread where I participated in good faith, till it became clear we were being ignored - and I do mean WE.

Now we have this thread.

What, do you think I like constantly refreshing the questions and putting them to the fore? And still not getting straight answers? No, it is unnecessarily time-consuming. I would like answers. Just some plain, simple answers.

I really think ESC - like so many people - are afraid that the answers won't be received well. Well, it's like telling the truth in life. You are always much better off just to get the facts on the table than you are to stonewall everything, hoping it goes away.

It took time to get here, Rusty, and it took time to turn me against not just the searchbot, but the entireity of ESC. It is a reaction against the arrogance we have seen from them.

Getting called names was just the icing on the cake for me.

But - don't anybody go down that route. That is the route laid out here by Forseti. Go down the route of still working for the answers.

coco

Thing is, Forseti, Prok isn't even HERE. None of these people is Prok. If you want to engage Prok, go engage him wherever he is.

coco

In a technical sense, is this a new post, or is this an addendum to an existing, previous post? You did say you were done. Just askin.

P.S. Forseti, I'd rather not get any personal messages of the nature of that which you posted here.