Automated Burglary

That's new because I was there over a week ago and never got an invite. Unsollicited group invites are also very much AR'able so that just highlights they really just don't care.

Listen to the secondcast with Christian about the searchbot: indexing the contents of everything is precisely what they're going for next.

But there are some crucial differences that break this analogy. The web has far greater permissions granularity than SL does. For example: Google can't spider across a page requiring authentication, nor cross into my intraweb, nor even spider into a "security by obscurity" html page that is on my website but has no other site linking to it. None of these "protections" are available against ESCbot.

Google also repects the Robots Exclusion Standard, a principle which I think ESCbot aspires to but hasn't yet implemented properly (and may never get working due to SL limitations).

I'm not arguing whether ESCbot should or should not do anything; I'm merely exploring the implications of what it is doing.

Where in the ToS or CS does it say inviting people to groups is an offense? Should I AR skidz Tweak for inviting me to the skidz users group after buying his product? After all, I didn't ask to be invited.

"highlights they really just don't care"

You and several others involved in this thread are extremely biased against these folks, and statements like the above are unfounded, and spiteful for the mere sake of being spiteful. You have nothing which contains even a micron of objectivity to support such an absurd assertion. What you have, is a grudge.

It should be a far lesser technical challenge to implement the exclusion standard than it was to create the bot in the first place...

First of all, borrowing your analogy, if there were a prim on any parcel named robots.txt then the bot would pay particular attention to it. That prim would contain a publicly-readable notecard that the bot would retrieve, written - much like a robots.txt file in RES - in a standard format that would direct the bot's further spidering.

That could be done on an estate level as well as a parcel level, and provide much more granular control that is driven by what the landowner wants, including exclusion altogether.

You could even argue that it should default to exclusion in the absence of the prim. Or that it could default to exclusion on islands and inclusion on mainland. Etc, etc.

This is something that ESC should certainly think about, though I wonder whether it could become a standard. There is less reason at this early stage for other people making search bots conform to a standard then there is on the WWW. Or at least, I think many aspiring bot-makers might think so, though I would disagree.

I personally feel that standards are going to be critical to this or any other bot in the future, and I do hope that they are implemented earlier rather than later.


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Good points.. Mine was more focused on the insistence that ESCBot should be explicitly banned, no opportunity offered to effect some reasonable controls over its activity, no interest in exploring the potential of the engine, mitigating some of the obvious privacy concerns it currently raises, just banned, period, simply because it pissed a few people off, and they made noise about it here.

See post 135, where Forseti Svarog of the ESC posted a comment. (That's on page 9.)

There is a new feature proposal at JIRA here for SL to incorporate a mechanism similar to ROBOTS.TXT. You can login there and vote for it if you think this needs to be a higher priority.

Never heard of this thing before but its scary as hell. The concept of having a search engine that can lead you to the items you seek is ok. The fact that it cataloges it without your permission sucks. You should not have to 'OPT OUT' of a service you did not know exists. Ive purchased plenty of items over my SL career that STILL had the 'for sale' button clicked. A friend stops by and says, " HEY WINTER, YER COUCH IS STILL FOR SALE" and I sheepishly click it off. Now some friggin sheep-bot can fly in without my knowledge and cataloge it for sale to anybody. What if I dont know its still got the price tag on it??? Doesnt matter if my house is locked or not, some buyer can stand on the outskirts next door and buy it off my lot. Noooo, shitty idea!! Now I gotta run around the lot and click everything I own to make sure there isnt anything still for sale that shouldnt be. Ive also used the set to sale for $0 to transfer an item to a friend many times. Now Ive gotta be looking over my back constantly to make sure the bots dont undermine my intent. Heres the scary part: I can do some things to prevent my items being sold to an unintended buyer. Why? Because I know about it now. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MILLION PEOPLE WHO DONT READ THE BOARDS???? Activities we have been doing since the dawn of SL are suddenly rendered hazerdous by some new device that nobody knows about. This may have looked good on paper, but cripes! The unknowing pubic should not be forced to OPT OUT of this system, they should be OPTED OUT by default. Once your made aware of this nifty new way to shop, then you can choose for yourself whether to join up or not. Done right, I like this feature. But the way it is now, I FEAR IT!!

well yeah i could stand on the edge of your land and zoom and pan my camera all around and "edit" all your objects and catalog them by writing them down.

Its just a lot slower.

Same thing with any other human spying - its slow.

The Bot can not only do it faster, but can do it all day long.

Of course if I stood on the edge of your land and did all that to people they would AR me for snooping on them. Somehow the Bot is exempt though.

*bump*

WTF is this sh*t?!?! I paid almost 1700 usd for a sim and something I was working on in the middle of my liveing room at 750M with a privacy orb with my hubby is listed for sale on a site I had no idea exsited by a bot I never heard of without my knowing. There is no way a person could have went up there and bought it. They will get TPd home as soon as they land. It is NOT for sale. Never ment to be listed anywhere. It is set for sale so my hubby can buy it so the project can be linked. It also tells every creep and griefer that I have banned ever from my clubs and sims in the past year that I have been here where I live. This is just craptastic!!! And what the hell!!! I have to go to their damn in world site to opt out of something I didn't know I was in on my own damn sim!? But you know what, I'm not going to opt out. I'm going to set 100's of boxes all over SL for sale for a dollar. All of them named with some nice comments about this Electric Goat Company. See in a week how many of them have made it on to their site! *stomps off to my room to make boxes grumbling about sneeky goats*

I sell mostly from vendors so this thing is mostly useless for me. The products that pay my tier are only listed by this service if I opted in entirely, which is completely not going to happen. It doesn't even list everything, if I go to list all the for sale items from a parcel I get an empty page.

if I had a way to opt in some parcels and opt out others, it would be better. But I do not. I don't want someone tp'ing directly to my studio when I am working on product. I don't want this thing listing products that are in progress either. So since its mostly useless for me, I've opted out entirely and banned the bot from my parcels.

If/when this thing becomes more useful, I may have a different opinion.

You poeple keep comparing SL to real life and it's not, the same rules dont apply. The OP had a sim open to public access and set up items for sale. It's as simple as that. Don't want to sell an item, then dont put it up for sale. Want to transfer an item using the sale for L$0 option, then restrict access to the sim/land. All this rubbish about comparing this act to real life situations is pointless. The facts are simple and the OP was wrong. Just because everyone feels morally obligated to bitch and moan about it doesnt remove the fact that nothing wrong has happened here.

It's a facet of real life, and it becomes more as such with every passing day. What a haggard backdoor escape tactic. The majority doesn't compartmentalise like most techies do, and you're going to have to accept that. Just as going to sit in a cinema to watch a film is part of real life, so is the internet. This canard of "The Internet (and SL by extension) is not RL!" is an artificial construct thrown up by those worried that their freedom to do what ever the hell they want, without repercussion, if in fact their pet projects affect others, and is a load of bull.

I am gonna laugh so hard when the push back comes, and you people who think abusing others just because your precious information "wants to be free" find yourselves on the receiving end. That day is coming. Of course, the techies will blame regulation on "The whiney babies who can't separate VR and the web from RL", but in fact, it will be because of their own reckless and wanton abandon while pursuing their personal dreams and curiousities, without regard for the other, not so inclined people, whom these things affect.

Yup. Yes indeedy. "When the shit goes down", you will find me locked in the server room with a year's supply of Power Bars, a slide rule, enough UPS batteries to kill 20 elephants dead on the spot, and Wii hooked up to a 60 inch high-def television.

I will be ready for you! Bring your tin-hatter army! Just try to destroy those who gave you digital cable, and the internet, and Second Life! Just try to destroy those who made it possible for you to order your books online and get your groceries shipped around the world without spoilage!

Because, we know something you don't, tin-hatter! The geek will inherit the Earth!


Sheesh.



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But you're in the know by being one of the relatively few out of the total SL-ers who read the forum?

I'm under the impression everyone is opted in by default, hence so many people losing inventory items they are really trying to transfer to known friends?

To have to opt in would be Failsafe ... not to opt out once you've found your mistake.

And *I* am "a troll". Uh huh. Me thinks someone needs a trip to The House of Mirrors. As if predicting that the net will become more regulated makes me a tinfoil hatter. The evidence is in the news every day, get used to it.

This will be the only response you troll out of me until you can actually debate me on the merits of what I say, rather than just trying to tar and feather with as all these names you're calling me.

Are there really that many people this is happening to? I know of one or two well-publicized cases like the one in this thread, but it's not like a landbot, is it? This bot only scours the grid once per 24 hour cycle, so it's not like you can set something for sale to a buddy for mere minutes and have it disappear on you.

Not being sarcastic here. I really want to know. Is this really happening to "so many people"?


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Well.... If what you said had merit I would be willing to debate it. But taking two words out of an entire post of mine and attempting to make some point out of that which is completely irrelevant to what I was saying is... Trolling.

And you got to admit, phrases like "that day is coming" without any thing to cite does sound rather superstitious. The whole post has a bit of an Art Bell feel to it, in my opinion.

Golly. I thought it was funny


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Cite what? The obvious?

Good grief. The internet WILL become more regulated, and it does all the time.

You want citations?

-The governments of Germany, Holland, and Italy put pressure on LL recently, to which LL responded by making it illegal to advertise ageplay.

-Then gambling came next.

-US Congress has visited the issue, and you can be sure they will again.

-Most countries require us to pay taxes on money earned online.

-Bragg vs. Linden Lab

These are just examples from SL! Regulation is coming, and I am for it, which is contrary to what i may have said a few years ago.

That is what I meant by "push back". If you want to read superstition and all those other things you've called me into those two words, you have at it, but I won't waste any more time on you if you do, especially if you continue to name call and dismiss the entirety of my statements by trolling ME.

Its not a real facet of life!! When you sit in a cinema and watch a film you are governed by real life laws. When you use the internet in rl you are governed by real life laws, locally, internationally, if you get ripped of on the internet you can phone the police, trading standards, the A Team, A whole host of organisations, authorities, regulating bodies that can help you. But were not in real life, were in a COMPUTER GAME! Just because you invest real life money in SL, it doesnt make it real. As soon as you convert those USD to L$ then that money looses all real life value. LL could destroy the L$ in a heart beat and they would be perfectly within their rights to do so. L$ only restore their value when LL's allow you to cash them out into real USD or they continue to manage the economy so external companies can restore their value. Until SL is goverened by somebody other than LL then SL is a virtual (not real) thats virtual world and LL are GODS and the TOS is the bible. What has happened to the OP is not in violation of the TOS and thus is perfectly acceptable. The only way for it to become unnacceptable is for LL to change the TOS.

This is complete violation of privacy and yes it is THEFT. You put your stuff out on a sim all ready and then they put on the site and later say "hey you know what we put all your stuff on our site if you wanna get it off come to our sim and opt out (and raise our traffic so we look better). I paid 1700 usd for a sim and 300 usd tier. If my sim is being scanned by a stupid company like this it should only be by my approval not just do what they please with my content. It is mine to list where i want it to. If I don't list it myself it should never be listed! For people who are trying to defend that its not a theft.. what if some one gets an idea of giving a surprise present to there friend or w/e. So they set up something up in their house and put it for sale so the friend can take it when they log in and this bot spys and tells everyone "Hey you know that thing is for sale!" and poof someone TPs into the middle of their PRIVATE HOUSE and buys it. ITS A GODDAMN THEFT TO GO IN TO A PRIVATE HOUSE and take the content! People don't know their house's are being spied on! 100000 People will TP from their stupid search page and land right in the middle of what you are doing..no matter what you are doing! Better hope that lamp by your bed isn't set for sale. Now everyone will have to be worried about someone stealing their stuff that they don't even know is for sale. And what about all the covenants that say no bots or scanners? This is a bot that scans right? So does it still go on the sims that prohibit them? "Linden Lab's Terms of Service agreement recognizes Residents' right to retain full intellectual property protection for the digital content they create in Second Life, including avatar characters, clothing, scripts, textures, objects and designs. This right is enforceable and applicable both in-world and offline, both for non-profit and commercial ventures. You create it, you own it – and it's yours to do with as you please." From the TOS. Wouldn't that also mean we get to choose where it it is advertised,or if it is advertised at all? To do with as we please..

Actually, it turns out that I am all for regulation too. Regulation is a tricky business though, with just as many potential pitfals as open source.

I pay my taxes for income earned in Second Life, and Bragg was an idiot with no leg to stand on. Gambling is illegal in many places, and the governments have every right to stop their citizens from breaking the law by finding a loophole such as an online venue. I think *sexual* ageplay is abhorrent, but I don't make a crusade out of stating my opinion on it (this may be the first time ever in a public forum, in fact).

So, in fact, if it is reasonably fair regulation I don't think it will impact me negatively at all.

As for the trolling, well, I hope you at least read the response I put on the other thread, as it is less sarcastic and more to the point of why you irritated me so much with that comment.

As for this thread, which is really really a long way from where it started, you probably missed the fact that I expressed my sympathies for the OP and called the people who used the search to buy his items out from under him thieves and scum.

But I guess that is easy to miss when this thread is as long as it is and you are focused on my pro-open source stance and the fact that I am a complete and utter geek who loves technology.

Because I can tell you right now, my vision for technology is a positive one that benefits us all, and I think that is the basic stance of many techies contrary to what you seem to believe.


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Fair enough, I did see the comment in the other thread, thank you for that. Please see mine as well.

Peace.

No it is not theft as has previously been discussed and explained in numerous posts. If you can file a valid police report I'll be amazed, but feel free to try if you think it will help...

Your point about TOS and and advertising is a non sequitur IMO. Just because they allow IP rights, this has abosolutely nothing to do with indexing them or listing them for sale.

Oh and a gentle reminder. Paragraphs are your friend.