Bots: Demonspawn or potentially good thing?

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Please Har. Keep the hypocrisy in your back pocket. You need it much more than I do.

Peace, Love and Sandcastles,

Zaphod

If only *ALL* people had integrity.

Talk with the banlink folks about setting up a special 'bot' category.

I dont think banlink is a very good system either. I dont like black lists.

Bots arent Residents though, only their owners are. I shouldnt have to track down each individual bot someone comes out with and ban it individually.

Even if someone does provide a list.

Eventually I wont be able to ban them individually.

There should be some way to opt out EN MASSE from all responsibly run bots on your land.

The irresponsibly run ones should be AR - able.

If the break the TOS/CS then they are AR-able. If they don't, then are they irresponsible?

But you DO want to blacklist all bots, no?

I do run bots, just not in secondlife, yet. Some attempt to pass as human (but, obviously, fail), some are clearly specific function automations. I don't have a need to hide the fact that one of my avatars might be a bot, and would likely have it declare it was a bot in its own profile. (most of my bots are stationary or limited-range types, one is a crawler/observer/reporter)

There's a difference between voluntary disclosure and involuntary. I don't think you should have the right to demand knowledge of which avatars might be controlled by bots so you can safeguard yourself from non-human intervention.

What about scripted objects that connect to external databases instead? A "bot" could just as easily be an attachment/implant on an avatar that's performing very 'bot' like functions. Would your blacklist include them or not?

So far every bot or bot type I have come across is good for a very select few, bad for secondlife residents as a whole. It's obvious that until bots come with some sort of T.O.S ethics guidelines, or Linden enforced regulations, they will primarily be abused.

I would rather see "sort of a ToS ethics guide or Linden enforced regulations" for people doing business in Secondlife. Bots can be a tool of the greedy. The greedy will still find ways with or without bots to do things that are "good for a very select few, bad for secondlife residents as a whole."

Bots allow speed and ease of wrongdoing that I feel should not be a power allowed until LL decides to regulate it. Yes there are are always greedy *uckers, but bots increase these unethical acts to a whole new level.

/327/d7/186304/1.html I came across this thread that is new as well and is about bots if there is any interest.

/327/01/185904/1.html Wow yet another just popped up. What good do bots do for us again that outweighs the fact that that they take advantage of people all day long?

Lets say that you could flag an account as a bot. All responsible bot runners once the bot was up and running shouldnt want to hide their bot was a bot.

Or Instead becuase techs hate that Idea for some reason (except one of the Electric sheep techs ironically) ...

I can flag my land as "no Bots"

Responsible Bot runners shoudlnt have a problem with having their bot treat my land as if they were banned from it. Much like the "Opt out" of google works (since many love to bring up that comparision).

Responsibly run land bots - dont swoop. Sorry but thats a fact. If they can program it not to buy Over X amount/ sqm they can program it not to buy UNDER Y amount per SQM.

If I can AR my neighbor for showing Porn on his non Adult flagged Mature parcel, I should sure as hell be able to AR a landswooping Bot that just stold $200 US from me when I made a mistake.

I want the ability to EXCLUDE all bots. Bots by definition are not persons. They are tools, they are computer programs.

Why should I , on my land not have the ability to keep bots out? Did the bot runners secretly pay my teir while I wasnt looking?

you cant discriminate against a computer program. Its not a person. Since this is one of the key things you have missed in several threads, I feel you must not be listening, or else youd stop ASKING me the question and just disagree with me. Bots are not persons.

Bots are not persons.




Why is declaring a bot a bot in some text that cant be used directly to limit bots on my land so much different then flagging a bot as a Bot. The flag could be used to limit access to places that dont want BOTS.

Bots are not persons.



Its been made clear that its not possible to make it involunatry. This issue is moot. Whether I should be able to demand a Bot is flagged or not is therefore moot.

Of course conceptually I see nothing wrong with demanding it, if it were possible, after all,

Bots are not persons.



Limits in the scripting abilities are already imposed and regulated by Linden Labs. Evidently they see their scripts as acceptable. Thus this really isnt the same thing.

However id be all for labeling scripted objects that performaed automated functions ona par with Bots ... As Bots.

I do have the ability to turn off outside scripts on my land. A person is also limited in the ammount of scanning they can do by human limitations.

thats because ..

Persons are not Bots.

Personally, I think it is none of your effin' business what client I run, be it an un-automated, a semi-automated, or a fully-automated one. I created the account, me, not some non-entity. As long as whatever I do with said account and software, I don't break the ToS, nor break the rules of the land owner whose land I am on (and, no, a "no bots" rule doesn't count any more than a "no people with red hair in RL" rule; that's called "intolerance", it's NO ONE's business AT ALL, including yours.

A bot is still a person, because it is activated and maintained BY a person. It can't self-actualize. How I choose to represent "myself" in SL is no one's business except mine and LL's. Asking LL to force people to reveal that they are running something other than the default viewer (which is the ONLY way to potentially identify a "bot", and not likely even then) is tantamount to forcing them to reveal some other personally-identifying RL information, and is just as odious.

It's nothing more than a form of prejudice, and it's just, well, wrong.

Bot prejudice is laughable.

This isnt a Science Fiction story. Bots dont have feelings.

Yeah, that's about what I expect from you.

I'm the bot. I *DO* have feelings. I exist as a person. The "bot" is a piece of software *I* run. Its existence reflects on me no less than any other avatar of myself.

This whole attitude of yours toward what software a person runs is beyond laughable; in fact, it's just sick.

Bots already DO come with some sort of T.O.S or ethics guidelines - they are required to behave in a manner consistent with Second Life's Terms of Service as well as the Community Standards. I would imagine you're a bit biased against bots simply because the majority, if not all of the bots you've run across happen to be land bots. I'm not in the land dealing business myself, but I still don't like them any more than you do. But down at the brass tacks level, they simply automate a function that humans perform using the official client - and as long as they operate within the rules established by the governing documents, they aren't doing anything wrong. Unfair advantage? Absolutely. I strongly dislike that. But alas, many things in life are unfair, yet not wrong.

And I'm sorry, but with the ones outright knowingly stealing land, and the one that is used to price switch right now taking advantage of residents using both speed and lag issues so they never actually see the change on the screen before they get a drop down saying they paid 40K more, it's just not right. I so sick of people excusing this sicking behavior with well, thats just capitalism, or hay if its not against the TOS its not wrong, or similar statements. And the current T.O.S. was not designed with this level of power and abuse level involved. When these bots knowingly STEAL land for 1L because the person selling had no idea that a greedy asshole could buy it within a split second unlike there best friend standing beside them, it's WRONG, weather they hide under the TOS like a f'ing coward or not. When a bot uses its speed to price switch residents into paying 44K instead of 4K, it's WRONG! So you saying that what they are doing is not wrong because they comply with the TOS is not very compassionate to the many people they have stole from. If a guy goes and convinces a judge she's to old and weak to handle her affairs, gets a power of attorney of his 70 year old grandma, legally takes all of her life savings out of the bank and takes off with it, sells the home she's lived in most of her life and takes that cash as well, throws poor grandma in a home, it may not be illegal, but we all know its WRONG.

Please don't misunderstand me Sarah - I FULLY agree with your judgement when it comes to cases where people are actually defrauding residents. My comments were more general than that, and meant to convey that there is nothing wrong with the idea, or practice, of using an automated client to perform particular functions with regard to land trading. When it comes to specific behavior, that behavior needs no special governance simply because it is automated. Whether it's a person controlling the client via mouse and keyboard, or whether it's programmatic behavior, it's still human behavior.

Sadly, neither the Terms of Service nor the Community Standards sufficiently address the many manifestations of fraud within Second Life. It's about damned time they DO.

There is a mechanism built into the system to sell to a specific person for whatever price you want. Thus, if people are misusing the system, for WHATEVER reason, they have NO ONE to blame but themselves, whether it be a bot, or a neighbor, or a passerby.



Yep, I agree with that. That is wrong, because it is using the system itself to misrepresent the price of the land. LL should make it work similar to a pay dialog, where the price and the detailed parcel info is displayed to the user. The user clicks "pay", and if the price or land details change for any reason, the purchase fails, and an appropriate error message is displayed to the buyer as to why ("Your purchase failed because the price was changed to L$xxxxxx. Please try your transaction again.".



(The rest of this is about people who make mistakes from ignorance, not those who get screwed from bona fide fraud).

The former is complying with the ToS, because he is completing a sale transaction, made in good faith within the bounds of the system. Setting property to sale for L$1 to anyone means just that, and no one should have to interpret anything as a result. If the buyer "didn't know" (i.e., ignorance), now he/she should, and take it for what it is: a lesson learned. Compassion is not a requirement, nor should it be, and people doing ignorant things when the system clearly is designed to help them prevent such mistakes doesn't form too good a grounds for eliciting compassion. "Stupid should hurt." - I live by this motto, and don't blame anyone else for my screwups in life.



Not even a remotely applicable analogy. No one is forcing anyone else to give up anything; they rightfully completed a sale initiated by the seller. The buyer, landbot or not, didn't force them to put it up for sale for too low a price; the buyer did that on his/her own volition. If the buyer doesn't understand, he/she can ask for help before using the land tools.

I researched how land worked in SL fully before I ever started looking for my first plot. In RL, I spent months and quite a bit of money learning how real estate works before I started looking for my first house. I don't have any sympathy for someone who was too lazy to bother doing the most basic due diligence about what can be a very expensive and important purchase, either in RL, or in SL. Sure, I will empathize "Yeah, that does suck; now you know, though!", but I'm not gonna feel sorry for someone who put their hand on a hot stove, ignorant of whether they would get burned or not.

What bothers me the most personally is that Linden Lab is very aware of the bot runner that is abusing the system the most and they are doing NOTHING about it. So in the end, it's not a company I want to be involved with or put my faith or money in. That is why this avatar will never go premium. Why pay land tier to a company that is unresponsive to an obvious exploit of the TOS? They think it's ok for their paying customers to get screwed? Well then screw them.

You can pull apart everything I say word for word over and over again, but we all know whats right and WRONG. Most of us learned the difference between right and wrong when we were kids. And when someone makes a very simple mistake they should not have to take a lose that equals thousands of real dollars because some greedy asshole has found a way to prey upon peoples errors and use lag or otherwise to his advantage specifically to take advantage of others. Most are unaware that they can have there land auto bought in a split second before the friends next to them until it's way to late. Total lack of compassion and lack of any concern for your fellow residents is just cold, and does not belong in a social game. Hiding under a TOS when knowingly wronging others is just cowardly. If "Stupid should hurt." is the motto that you have chosen to live by, then I should have more compassion for you than anyone. I'm sorry that you don't have a happier more enjoyable way of life. I'm sorry your life has been so cold you can't understand compassion for the people around you. I feel bad for whatever it is in your life that has made you so cold to others. The general public has a better understanding of right and wrong, and taking advantage of others in this manner is just considered wrong to most of us.

Ahh this isnt about me though this time either, right? - its about my "attitude" right?

Whatever - at some point you cross the line between disagreeeing with me and making things personal. Since you are so socially astute you should pick up on that. Backtracking after being nasty is disingenuous at best.

I am saying that someone running an automated program that lets them do substantial things that Affect ME and other Residents in a way they couldnt without it should be willing to declare they are doing so.

You are saying they shouldnt have to. Making it personal is pointless.

The only one who brought up tagging each modified client is you. I never said anything like that.

Yes, *we* do. Whether we agree on it or not really isn't relevant, as what is right for one may be quite wrong for another.

As for "pulling apart" everything you say, that's called "discussion". You make points. I agree with the ones I agree with, I disagree with the ones I disagree with. It's stupid to expect that everyone has to accept each and every premise of your stance wholesale, without discussion or consideration. Would you rather I said "I disagree with everything you say!" if it wasn't true, just so I could avoid "pulling apart everything you say"?



I was taught at an early age many things about what is right and what is wrong. I was ALSO taught to be responsible for my own mistakes, and make amends for them if I hurt someone else as a result of them. In addition, I was taught that I was the most responsible party for my OWN actions, ignorant or intentional. No one else was to blame, and I should NEVER expect compassion for any harm that came to myself as a result. If someone gives me compassion, that's fine, but it is neither a requirement that they do so, nor does it speak anything negative to their morals if they don't. Contrary to your stance, it's not evil to not have/offer compassion to someone; it's evil to expect it of someone for one's own self-inflicted ills. I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why that is true.



In the age of the intarweb, where everything is "give it to me NOW NOW NOW!!", why would ANYONE expect that an information system is anything less than "instantaneous"???

Why would anyone look at the "Sell land to this specific avatar" field and think "Gee.. why should I bother to use that? My bud is right here, and I can sell it to him by just setting it for L$1 to anyone! I can't imagine any use for that field!"?



I have plenty of compassion for my fellow residents. Just ask anyone who REALLY knows me (you don't, obviously). That said, what I DO NOT have compassion for is people who can't be bothered to THINK for themselves, or at least do the most basic effort to make sure THEY are using the system right, and get burned as a result. It's not rocket science. It DOES take some effort and forethought. No one is "hiding" under anything. It's like having compassion for someone who sits down at a poker table and loses it all on a bad hand. You place your bets, you take your chances. If you don't know how to play poker, DON'T play with anything more than you're willing to lose. DEFINITELY don't run crying to momma when big bad ol' pokerface cleans your clock (and your bank account that you WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY put up for stake).



The same could be said for you, since you seem to want a "nanny" for everyone to make sure someone is there to go "oopsie, did ums get a booboo?" and not have to take responsibility for any mistake in your life on your own. I don't need your nannyism, nor really your ignorant, callous, condescending misjudgment of my life. You make it sound like you definitely need all the compassion you can get for yourself, so keep it.



Pretty typical "I speak for the majority" post. Bravo! Yes, most people have a pretty good understanding of right and wrong, regardless of your judgment of them or claims to belong with them.

Carry on!

If there is a land bot that buys land, but will return any mistake sales, 1L$ etc., is this bot still wrong?

When people price land at a low price, it is usually because they want to get rid of it quickly. Is it a bad thing if they know if they price it under X amount it will sell right away?

You tell me; is your attitude here all there is of you? Are these forums and your posts your entire life? If so, how... quaint.



I didn't start it; I'm just enjoying the sarcastic smartallec comments in your responses and figured maybe you'd appreciate some response-in-kind, so I obliged. The "playing victim" part is a nice touch, though.



..and I am saying that, as long as the ToS isn't violated, it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Is that not clear enough? You go ahead and fight hard for your "bot brand", though; I'll fight harder to prevent it from happening.



I don't know you. My responses are formulated to match yours. I speak nothing as to your character, only to your posture and point-of-view here; no less than you are treating me and others who disagree with you. If you are telling me that your posture here is all that you are, then I am sorry, but you're going to get back what you dish out.



Now you're being obtuse. It amounts to the same thing. What good is an account flag going to do when I can run any client at any particular time on the SAME account, hmmm? I said such was the ONLY way to POTENTIALLY *IDENTIFY* a bot, and not likely even then. Regardless of how it is accomplished, I stated that what client I use is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, REGARDLESS of what I use it for, be it a bot, or just to hang around, or auto-build, or whatever. YOU want to do the "tagging" or "account flagging" or whatever, so you can discriminate between users based on their preference of client, which is what all this amounts to. That's the point you keep conveniently "missing".

What's so crazy about this is that I have NEVER run a bot, nor have any plans to any time in the forseeable future, and I'm here vigorously defending their right to exist and their users be free from discrimination. It is because I find your stance to be much worse a problem (if implemented) than I expect they will ever be.