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Bots: Demonspawn or potentially good thing? |
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Elex Dusk
Bunneh
Join date: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 800
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05-27-2007 11:06
And what about those camping chair zombies? Which brings up another form of bot: avatars created to persist in-world and milk things like camping chairs, money bushes, etc.
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Lord Steadham
Registered user
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 312
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05-27-2007 11:14
If there is a land bot that buys land, but will return any mistake sales, 1L$ etc., is this bot still wrong? When people price land at a low price, it is usually because they want to get rid of it quickly. Is it a bad thing if they know if they price it under X amount it will sell right away? Not inherently. But if all the bots disappeared, this service would be handled like it was in the past: by a dozen swooping land brokers. _____________________
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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05-27-2007 11:23
And what about those camping chair zombies? Which brings up another form of bot: avatars created to persist in-world and milk things like camping chairs, money bushes, etc. What about them? While I understand that the added grid load for something as silly as a camping chair bot is probably on the unreasonable side, I am definitely not fit for making any kind of value judgment as to their worth based on their activity. Chair operators can deal with them if they want, and LL can make whatever determinations are necessary to make accounts justify their cost, bringing back payment verification or making mandatory subscriptions, if that is what it takes. However, discriminating based on activity (or lack of) is particularly odious to me. If people have valid accounts (free or pay; LL's choice), then they should have already figured some of them being logged in all the time as a cost factor, thus should not be worried over what legal (according to the ToS) activities they participate in while logged in. |
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
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05-27-2007 11:23
I wonder if this about what use someone should put superior skills to: for their own gain or for the gain of the general good.
If someone can program a bot, do they draw a line at taking advantage of mistakes by programming to not buy below a certain amount? Or is the whole point of using their skill and knowledge to have it profit them as a reward for their efforts? My instinct is to support non bot land dealers (as one poster can attest in that when I wanted to dump a lot of land fast, I dealt with her and priced everything at a great deal...don't need a bot to sell land fast). That is my personal choice. In a world of land bots I wanted to make sure she stayed in the future SL because of her many contributions. We have already lost some good land dealers because of the competition with bots and I want to counter that. However, for the long term survival of a community, it is probably to the greater good at the end of the day if people with superior skills use them without limits and goad the general population to up their game: basically there becomes a high cost to mistakes and people begin to up their game to avoid making them and the society becomes more agile as a result. Once we start trimming the world (any world) to protect people from learning from mistakes we stop growing. Looking at it from that perspective, there is gain from the pain. So meta level or personal? I suspect it is the stress between the two that will create the future. As for a positive bot, I love my security orb which basically ejects people when I'm not there if they hang about too long. |
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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05-27-2007 11:54
My instinct is to support non bot land dealers (as one poster can attest in that when I wanted to dump a lot of land fast, I dealt with her and priced everything at a great deal...don't need a bot to sell land fast). That is my personal choice. In a world of land bots I wanted to make sure she stayed in the future SL because of her many contributions. We have already lost some good land dealers because of the competition with bots and I want to counter that. Indeed! If/when we sell our mainland land, I would be happy to sell it to someone who actually makes effort to be a part of the market personally, though my first choice is to sell it to another consumer directly myself. I might even make that a condition of sale, but there is no way to enforce it. Just have to "trust". However, if I need to just sell it, someone like Sarah Nerd would be high on my "preferred buyer" list. However, for the long term survival of a community, it is probably to the greater good at the end of the day if people with superior skills use them without limits and goad the general population to up their game: basically there becomes a high cost to mistakes and people begin to up their game to avoid making them and the society becomes more agile as a result. Once we start trimming the world (any world) to protect people from learning from mistakes we stop growing. Yep. Pandering to the least common denominator rarely works, and dumbs down the world for the rest of us. Sometimes the learning process is painful, but people don't need to be protected from themselves. Life is all about making mistakes, mending your ills, and moving on. Those who are given little to no incentive to avoid repeating mistakes will do so again and again. Sadly, it is human nature to be lazy and expect the world to adapt to them, but humans got to where they are by being the most adaptive creatures in the world. Some say "the Creator gave you a brain; think for yourself!"; I add as a corollary "the Creator gave you the ability to learn and adapt; do so!". As for a positive bot, I love my security orb which basically ejects people when I'm not there if they hang about too long. According to someone here, scripted objects don't count as bots. Unless you mean you have a client you wrote which you keep logged in with control over your land that boots people, that is.  |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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05-27-2007 12:13
I wonder if this about what use someone should put superior skills to: for their own gain or for the gain of the general good. If someone can program a bot, do they draw a line at taking advantage of mistakes by programming to not buy below a certain amount? Or is the whole point of using their skill and knowledge to have it profit them as a reward for their efforts? My instinct is to support non bot land dealers (as one poster can attest in that when I wanted to dump a lot of land fast, I dealt with her and priced everything at a great deal...don't need a bot to sell land fast). That is my personal choice. In a world of land bots I wanted to make sure she stayed in the future SL because of her many contributions. We have already lost some good land dealers because of the competition with bots and I want to counter that. However, for the long term survival of a community, it is probably to the greater good at the end of the day if people with superior skills use them without limits and goad the general population to up their game: basically there becomes a high cost to mistakes and people begin to up their game to avoid making them and the society becomes more agile as a result. Once we start trimming the world (any world) to protect people from learning from mistakes we stop growing. Looking at it from that perspective, there is gain from the pain. So meta level or personal? I suspect it is the stress between the two that will create the future. As for a positive bot, I love my security orb which basically ejects people when I'm not there if they hang about too long. That makes a lot of sense..even to me. We want the Providers to leave us to our own devices, so we should deal with these things as a group, and reach compromises that benefit us all. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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05-27-2007 12:23
You tell me; is your attitude here all there is of you? Are these forums and your posts your entire life? If so, how... quaint. I didn't start it; I'm just enjoying the sarcastic smartallec comments in your responses and figured maybe you'd appreciate some response-in-kind, so I obliged. The "playing victim" part is a nice touch, though. ..and I am saying that, as long as the ToS isn't violated, it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Is that not clear enough? You go ahead and fight hard for your "bot brand", though; I'll fight harder to prevent it from happening. I don't know you. My responses are formulated to match yours. I speak nothing as to your character, only to your posture and point-of-view here; no less than you are treating me and others who disagree with you. If you are telling me that your posture here is all that you are, then I am sorry, but you're going to get back what you dish out. Now you're being obtuse. It amounts to the same thing. What good is an account flag going to do when I can run any client at any particular time on the SAME account, hmmm? I said such was the ONLY way to POTENTIALLY *IDENTIFY* a bot, and not likely even then. Regardless of how it is accomplished, I stated that what client I use is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, REGARDLESS of what I use it for, be it a bot, or just to hang around, or auto-build, or whatever. YOU want to do the "tagging" or "account flagging" or whatever, so you can discriminate between users based on their preference of client, which is what all this amounts to. That's the point you keep conveniently "missing". What's so crazy about this is that I have NEVER run a bot, nor have any plans to any time in the forseeable future, and I'm here vigorously defending their right to exist and their users be free from discrimination. It is because I find your stance to be much worse a problem (if implemented) than I expect they will ever be. I get it - Its my fault you come accross as a condescending pompus ass who resorts to personal attacks and then retreats back saying you didnt. I will no longer debate you on any subject. Have a nice second life. In over 4000 posts I never had to ignore any forums user. I guess theres a first for everything. |
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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05-27-2007 13:01
I get it - Its my fault you come accross as a condescending pompus ass who resorts to personal attacks and then retreats back saying you didnt. The fine print at the bottom of the mirror reads "condescending pompus(sic) ass is not any closer than you appear". I will no longer debate you on any subject. Did you ever? Have a nice second life. BANK on it, sister!  In over 4000 posts I never had to ignore any forums user. I guess theres a first for everything. What's next? You saying "Neener neener!"? Of course, since you won't be reading any of this yourself, maybe someone will be nice enough to quote it for you.  |
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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05-27-2007 14:01
So it looks like the bot issue mainly boils down to ethics.
If someone's using a bot doesn't harm or intrude on other Residents, it looks like it should be generally acceptable,or at least tolerable. Since SL is not a game where one wins or loses relative to others, it is not an exploit (except within particular cases like combat sims or some other game-within-SL, where a bot could confer an unfair advantage). But condoning bots then means expecting or requiring some level of ethical behavior and responsibility from the bot user, because obvioously, sometimes a bot will do harm or intrude, either by accident or by design. If an innocently used bot turns out to do that, a responsible user will, or should, fix that, one way or another. Of course, some people will be irresponsible. And some people will deliberately use bots to exploit or harm other Residents for their own benefit or amusement (Oh, you've noticed). The classic poster villain for this case - so far - is the landbot that exploits lag to exponentially increase the price you have agreed on after you approve the sale and before you can see that it has changed the price, leaving you stuck with a price you did not agree on when the sale is consummated. This is a crime. I will leave it to trained lawyers to decide whether it is theft or fraud or falsifying an agreement or falls under some other statute, but in this case we are dealing with a crime, and sometimes there is enough value involved to trigger the felony statutes in most jurisdictions. Obviously, we -- LL and the Residents - are going to have to deal with this case of deliberate misuse of bots. One alternative is to look to the owner of SL - LL - to take action against obvious crimes. As others have already noted, it is deeply troubling that LL has not yet done this. LL needs to be prevailed upon to clean that up. Another is to revisit TOS and Community Standards. As many have noted, they were written without foreknowledge of what the introduction of bots could do to SL and its residents - and therefore to the viability and future of LL itself. This phenomoneon cries out for reform. But we can't count on TOS and CS and LL for everything, nor should we. It is likely we Residents are going to have to take actions ourselves to deal with misuse of this technology against our will and against our interests and welfare. What those actions are, or should be, is likely going to be a very interesting question. Anybody with thoughts on how to advance these goals? |
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Rusty Satyr
Meadow Mythfit
Join date: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 610
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05-27-2007 14:14
I want the ability to EXCLUDE all bots. Bots by definition are persons. They are tools, they are computer programs. Bots are not persons. Bots are not persons. Bots are not persons. Bots are not persons. Persons are not Bots. Okay okay okay... I hear you. But you know what? Avatars are not human either. You are asking for the power to discriminate against the HUMAN that uses bot-code. Sorry. You are guaranteed the ability to know three things about any avatar: It's name. It's creation date. It's payment verification status. If a bot owner voluntarily chooses to disclose which of their alts are run with bot code, fine you might be able to ban them easily. Chances are these are the bots from which you have nothing to fear... It's the unscrupulous types that WON'T disclose they're running bots... not even to LL... that are the one's you want to block out. Either it's voluntary disclosure and ineffective, or it's mandatory disclosure and another loss of RL privacy in secondlife. Bot owners are human beings. You don't have the right to discriminate against them because they MIGHT do something unscrupulous. That is, essentially, prejudice, regardless of how emotionally appealing it may sound... it is still prejudice. I don't like it, so I speak out against it. What next? Red arm-bands for the bot owners so you can spit on them for being 'unclean' ? Rise up and convince LL that land swooping is wrong. Rise up and convince LL that exporting internal secondlife data is wrong. Rise up and demand better exclusive privacy. Guns are legal. Shooting people is a crime. Bots are legal. Make the ACTIONS they perform that harm people a crime. _____________________
Cory Linden: "As we’ve talked about, the long term goals for Second Life are to make it a more open platform."
SecondLife: LL made the bottle... we made the whine, er, wine. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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05-27-2007 14:53
Okay okay okay... I hear you. But you know what? Avatars are not human either. You are asking for the power to discriminate against the HUMAN that uses bot-code. Sorry. You are guaranteed the ability to know three things about any avatar: It's name. It's creation date. It's payment verification status. If a bot owner voluntarily chooses to disclose which of their alts are run with bot code, fine you might be able to ban them easily. Chances are these are the bots from which you have nothing to fear... It's the unscrupulous types that WON'T disclose they're running bots... not even to LL... that are the one's you want to block out. Either it's voluntary disclosure and ineffective, or it's mandatory disclosure and another loss of RL privacy in secondlife. Bot owners are human beings. You don't have the right to discriminate against them because they MIGHT do something unscrupulous. That is, essentially, prejudice, regardless of how emotionally appealing it may sound... it is still prejudice. I don't like it, so I speak out against it. What next? Red arm-bands for the bot owners so you can spit on them for being 'unclean' ? Rise up and convince LL that land swooping is wrong. Rise up and convince LL that exporting internal secondlife data is wrong. Rise up and demand better exclusive privacy. Guns are legal. Shooting people is a crime. Bots are legal. Make the ACTIONS they perform that harm people a crime. If there was a voluntary flag... Bots like Sheepbot's searchbot could have been automatically banned. People could opt out in theory - before they were asked. Such a flag could be a toggle so as not to "wreck" an account. I find it ironic I have to flag my content as Adult to stop some person who shoudlnt be on the grid from seeing it, while a bot can datamine people who dont want them to without using a similair flag. Alternatively -- The way I understand it sites can opt out of google by some sort of tag. This would be like a toggle on your land, which bots , run by considerate bot owners could use to treat that parcel as off limits. Doing what Grid Sheppard does and saying "if you dont want me on you land, ban me" works only as long as the number of bots is limited, and you are aware they exist. As the numbers grow this will not be workable. Without any sort of way to default opting out at all - you will get black lists. Simple as that. To turn the "you have no privacy" proponents argument around on them. What would the bot owners be afraid of? That People might actually use the toggles? Wouldnt that say something? As to other bots who dont care about other residents wishes .. of course you cant control them. It would be saying something itself they will run bots and cram them down other residents throats. --------------------- Edit - Spare me the "Bots are people too" nonsense... In a few weeks people wont even be able to have adult activities on their own land without declaring it to the world. |
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Skye Whitcroft
Disappointed
Join date: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 207
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05-27-2007 15:53
This thread is pretty dull, the same conversation we had a thousand times already but I just wanted to add that I think most Bots ARE flagged. When I login to Second Life I submit my email address and a client description (in my case I put LandBotSuite). Of course, you can't see that, but LL probably can. Also, naturally it's voluntary, I'm sure I could disguise myself as the official client but I don't and I doubt anyone else does.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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05-27-2007 15:57
This thread is pretty dull, the same conversation we had a thousand times already but I just wanted to add that I think most Bots ARE flagged. When I login to Second Life I submit my email address and a client description (in my case I put LandBotSuite). Of course, you can't see that, but LL probably can. Also, naturally it's voluntary, I'm sure I could disguise myself as the official client but I don't and I doubt anyone else does.
Oh, also I wanted to add that I can understand people being against LandBot and CopyBot since it directly affects old, outdated business models and people will always be upset when they lose income. But being against ESC's bot is totally mind blowing. I simply can't imagine one negative thing about it. _____________________
Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56).
Also, we pay L$0.15/sqm/week for tier donated to our group and we rent pure tier to your group for L$0.25/sqm/week. Free L$ for Everyone - http://ninjaland.net/tools/search-scumming/ |
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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05-27-2007 16:06
Oh, also I wanted to add that I can understand people being against LandBot and CopyBot since it directly affects old, outdated business models and people will always be upset when they lose income. But being against ESC's bot is totally mind blowing. I simply can't imagine one negative thing about it. Are you saying that copybot is a good thing? Are you also saying that you have no problems with someone stealing your hard work and passing it off as their own? _____________________
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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05-27-2007 16:09
Are you saying that copybot is a good thing? Are you also saying that you have no problems with someone stealing your hard work and passing it off as their own? I think I said the precise opposite. Don't get me started on the concept of intellectual property though. This isn't the time or the place for the discussion but I'm beginning to think the whole concept of IP needs to be eradicated utterly. _____________________
Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56).
Also, we pay L$0.15/sqm/week for tier donated to our group and we rent pure tier to your group for L$0.25/sqm/week. Free L$ for Everyone - http://ninjaland.net/tools/search-scumming/ |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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05-27-2007 16:18
I am really, genuinely interested in what you're thinking here Elanthius. You're right, this isn't the time or place, but I hope to have an opportunity to understand your position on this subject.
Don't get me started on the concept of intellectual property though. This isn't the time or the place for the discussion but I'm beginning to think the whole concept of IP needs to be eradicated utterly. _____________________
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. |
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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05-27-2007 16:23
I think I said the precise opposite. Don't get me started on the concept of intellectual property though. This isn't the time or the place for the discussion but I'm beginning to think the whole concept of IP needs to be eradicated utterly. I am sorry, I was not understanding what you where saying. It just seemed that you weren't against the Landbots or CopyBots. The statement of "directly affects old, outdated business models and people will always be upset when they lose income" was only aimed at the landbots? _____________________
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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05-27-2007 16:29
I can understand people being against LandBot and CopyBot since BOTH OF THEM directly affect old, outdated business models and people will always be upset when they lose income. But being against ESC's bot is totally mind blowing. I simply can't imagine one negative thing about it.
HTH _____________________
Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56).
Also, we pay L$0.15/sqm/week for tier donated to our group and we rent pure tier to your group for L$0.25/sqm/week. Free L$ for Everyone - http://ninjaland.net/tools/search-scumming/ |
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Rusty Satyr
Meadow Mythfit
Join date: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 610
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05-27-2007 16:38
But being against ESC's bot is totally mind blowing. I simply can't imagine one negative thing about it. Two reasons: 1) Some people unwisely rely on sell-for-zero transfer of in-world objects for their business niche. Alternatives to that method are cumbersome or ill-suited to the task. 2) Some people object to the public meta-data about their in-world content being exported from secondlife. (my words for it, not theirs). Some think of it as an invasion of their SL privacy. I sympathize with both problems... and am reasonably confident that ESC will try to do the right thing with regards to both. There should be a simple opt-out process for ESC's searchbot. I proposed (in the "Automated Burglary" thread) using the "publish to web" flag on parcels. If it's not set... don't data-mine and publish elsewhere. Simple, voluntary... the flag is already in use by people for a very similar purpose, this would be a natural extension. Colette- I agree with many of your observations, I know my arguing with you doesn't sound like it. It's when you make statements like: " I want the ability to EXCLUDE all bots." that I get the urge to quibble, for reasons already stated. I have no problem with voluntary registration and disclosure, (though it is not likely in an "open platform" environment). I just hate seeing this turn into a witch-hunt against bot owners. We're still in the early days of bots in secondlife, give it time to mature and shake out a bit before passing judgment on them all. Bot-code or no.. the real issue is trusting the HUMAN behind the avatar. _____________________
Cory Linden: "As we’ve talked about, the long term goals for Second Life are to make it a more open platform."
SecondLife: LL made the bottle... we made the whine, er, wine. |
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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05-27-2007 17:08
I can understand people being against LandBot and CopyBot since BOTH OF THEM directly affect old, outdated business models and people will always be upset when they lose income. But being against ESC's bot is totally mind blowing. I simply can't imagine one negative thing about it. HTH Gotcha. _____________________
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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05-28-2007 17:55
Yes, *we* do. Whether we agree on it or not really isn't relevant, as what is right for one may be quite wrong for another.As for "pulling apart" everything you say, that's called "discussion". You make points. I agree with the ones I agree with, I disagree with the ones I disagree with. It's stupid to expect that everyone has to accept each and every premise of your stance wholesale, without discussion or consideration. Would you rather I said "I disagree with everything you say!" if it wasn't true, just so I could avoid "pulling apart everything you say"? I was taught at an early age many things about what is right and what is wrong. I was ALSO taught to be responsible for my own mistakes, and make amends for them if I hurt someone else as a result of them. In addition, I was taught that I was the most responsible party for my OWN actions, ignorant or intentional. No one else was to blame, and I should NEVER expect compassion for any harm that came to myself as a result. If someone gives me compassion, that's fine, but it is neither a requirement that they do so, nor does it speak anything negative to their morals if they don't. Contrary to your stance, it's not evil to not have/offer compassion to someone; it's evil to expect it of someone for one's own self-inflicted ills. I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why that is true. In the age of the intarweb, where everything is "give it to me NOW NOW NOW!!", why would ANYONE expect that an information system is anything less than "instantaneous"??? Why would anyone look at the "Sell land to this specific avatar" field and think "Gee.. why should I bother to use that? My bud is right here, and I can sell it to him by just setting it for L$1 to anyone! I can't imagine any use for that field!"? I have plenty of compassion for my fellow residents. Just ask anyone who REALLY knows me (you don't, obviously). That said, what I DO NOT have compassion for is people who can't be bothered to THINK for themselves, or at least do the most basic effort to make sure THEY are using the system right, and get burned as a result. It's not rocket science. It DOES take some effort and forethought. No one is "hiding" under anything. It's like having compassion for someone who sits down at a poker table and loses it all on a bad hand. You place your bets, you take your chances. If you don't know how to play poker, DON'T play with anything more than you're willing to lose. DEFINITELY don't run crying to momma when big bad ol' pokerface cleans your clock (and your bank account that you WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY put up for stake). The same could be said for you, since you seem to want a "nanny" for everyone to make sure someone is there to go "oopsie, did ums get a booboo?" and not have to take responsibility for any mistake in your life on your own. I don't need your nannyism, nor really your ignorant, callous, condescending misjudgment of my life. You make it sound like you definitely need all the compassion you can get for yourself, so keep it. Pretty typical "I speak for the majority" post. Bravo! Yes, most people have a pretty good understanding of right and wrong, regardless of your judgment of them or claims to belong with them. Carry on! No what I want is for something that is obviously being used to take advantage of people, and nothing more or less to be stopped or corrected. I feel strongly connected to this game and it's residents so when I see something that only exists to profit completely off of known errors, something that is made specifically to take advantage of others, I will say something and do what I think I need to do. After seeing several of your posts, It seems to me your only objective here is to pick apart several peoples posts, taking out what you can't argue and looking for fights. And thats fine, some people just love to argue. Your obviously a pretty smart guy, I hope you find a way to use your debate skill to make a difference in the second life community. |
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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05-28-2007 20:03
I feel strongly connected to this game and it's residents so when I see something that only exists to profit completely off of known errors, something that is made specifically to take advantage of others, I will say something and do what I think I need to do. I've been here for about 1.2 years now; longer than most, shorter than some. I feel very connected and involved in the community where I am as well. However, where you see what you claim to see, I see a tool. That it is sometimes used for ill, I have no doubt (and have NEVER claimed otherwise). That doesn't make the tool itself, nor the ability to craft one like it, inherently "evil". For those which are used to exploit the system by CIRCUMVENTION, and thus, breaking the ToS/CS as written, then yeah, LL needs to get up off their tails and 1) ban the abusers, and 2) fix the holes in the system. For the rest, a combination of user education and MAYBE some updates to the ToS/CS are in order. Since it is something that I feel is important to me, I feel obligated to say something and do what I think I need to do as well. I don't want a nanny state in SL; I live in one already in RL. Any proposed changes to the ToS/CS will need to be tempered with that in mind before I would consider offering my support and not debating against them. After seeing several of your posts, It seems to me your only objective here is to pick apart several peoples posts, taking out what you can't argue and looking for fights. And thats fine, some people just love to argue. Your obviously a pretty smart guy, I hope you find a way to use your debate skill to make a difference in the second life community. You're confusing style with intent. When I quote and respond to specific parts of a post, I am addressing specific points made, rather than trying to make a blanket statement about the whole of the other person's post. It's just a style; there's nothing sinister or wrong about it. It's done to follow the flow of the discussion. Some points made I don't address because a) I implicitly agree with them, b) they are irrelevant to my responses, or c) they are too inflammatory to even bother with. There's probably a d) and e) as well, but I don't know what they are right this minute. I don't go looking for fights; many I steer clear of. However, for the fights where I feel there is something important at stake, you better believe I will get involved. I would expect that is no less true for you or any other poster in this thread, or any thread, for that matter. For those who want to make it nasty and take it to a silly level, sure, I will "play"; I have no fears or worries about that. I'm an old hand at flame/warboards, and have seen it all again and again for more than 20 years, so nothing in that regard phases me. Some people get their arse up on their shoulder over it, though. *shrug* When I get through posting, I don't give it a moment's further thought. If people don't want to get into a fight, they shouldn't be using "fightin' words" and trading blows. As for making a difference, it is all relative. Things are already "different" that I posted anything at all. Whether I make a positive difference or not or prevent a negative difference from happening or not only time will tell; I'm happy with the judgment of history in the end, though. |