Current Thoughts and Solutions to new ban.

Make SL back into a game.
Lindens would have no resell value in US$ or any other RL currency.

Lindens would be just as valuable as any other money system in any other game.
It only works in game and can not be traded outside the game.

Probably would also have to make it impossible to buy them outside the game.

Lindens would have to be earned in game only.

LL would have to come up with some ways though for Newbs to be able to earn some money other than camping.

They may have to up their monthly stipends or something to encourage more players to sign up for premium accounts.

If Lindens have no RL value, it would not be considered Internet Gambling.

If the Player didn't Know not only that they would Win, but exactly When they would Win the Element of Chance would STILL be a factor, and the game would Still be Illegal.

Angel.

The policy no doubt was drafted the day the FBI started looking into it. Lindens are real money. No doubt everyone who is affected by the ban is well aware of this. My 1/2 region of real estate was not free, it definitely made a big bold line on my bank statement.

I have seen the casinos and without deliberately jabbing at anyone let me just say: who in their right mind is going to trust an llScript? Sure I've had some fun with sploders among friends to help liven up the event. I know when I put (much more than the minimum) in that I'm going to lose. I could alternatively go around the room and hand out thirteen dollar bills. I also know the owner gets a 10%-20% cut.

But one of the first things I saw in SL was the wholly unregulated and far too abundant casino industry.

Pays out "about 80%" ...

If (ThisMachinesEarnings<AmountOfBet) Then
  Odds = 0
Else
  Odds = 0.8
EndIf

Again I'm not saying any particular makers' machines do that but tell me none don't ... ?

I saw real gambling ruin lives. The savings and investment of lifetimes flung away on football games. I've seen how addictive SL is. Combine two addictions and the problem is bigger than a disruption of a business that is built around rigged games of chance (and they all are rigged, there is no such thing as gambling in vegas that isn't stacked to favor the house and the same applies here if not moreso)

My friends know I'm anti-gambling to extreme, but hopefully I've played this game fair. I for one support this action albeit amused by this loophole search.

Um ... good luck

(ooh this is my 13th post too!)

I have no problem with that. Or, just tax the money that comes out of SL, just like any other Internet business.

^ http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php

You can't just turn it back into a game and make everything worthless when you have a $2million/day economy. Income is taxed, or should be. If people don't claim it and are audited then they get busted. When you go in SL business its not really any different than operating a graphic design service on the web or something similar. Once you start getting a noticeable cashflow see an accountant.

There's a lot of people who have thousands or more invested in land, for one thing. Many are taking a loss on it but know it can be resold once they're sick of being saints.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens when troves of attorneys show up. I think I hear footsteps.

The problem is that Lindens *have* to be tradable for RL currency, otherwise almost all the content creators will leave, because essentially they'd be spending their US$ (paying for their land tier) *and* doing the work of content creation... just to get L$ which, under your rules, they could only spend in-game for other content. And honestly, you only need so big an inventory - especially if you're spending time in world working on content. Every resident land dealer would be wiped out in one fell swoop, unable to recover their US$ tier costs from trading in L$.

You have to remember that in the original version of SL, that is Linden Labs' original design, L$ *could* only be earned or spent in-game. L$ trading for US$ started as an unofficial feature developed by residents!

The problem with bringing taxes into it- and I think this is one reason gambling is banned- Who's Income taxes do you pay?

Anyone over in Europe/Asia feel like paying taxes in California?

And where I'm at, state law says (I checked), that a resident of the State has to pay income tax when the resident makes $600 or more a month. I'm well under that.

Same for buying L$- How long would SL last if everyone got hit with taxes just to buy 20 Cents worth of L$???

NOW- come Income Tax time, try explaining these things to your accountant. See if you get that "blank stare" look.

But then again, I could also count anything I buy for SL (graphics tablets, computers, etc) as a business expense. How do you claim L$ spent as a business expense?

Would merchants need to provide receipts? How about a receipt for every upload?

Geez! I didnt wanna go on that long! But I can see why the goverments are hesitant to try taxes in Virtual Economies. More headaches for them!!

ok ok .. here's my two cents worth in this debate and possible solution .. or idea anyways. from all my research and reading the main reason for this law is to protect the US lottery system that runs in RL ,, right? the root issue here in SL is teh conversion of L's into RL currency which takes away from the RL lottery system. according to those trying tp protect the lottery system. Since we can't just obolish the L's system and teh exchange currancy bit.. why not just take the L's right out of the games entirely, period. thus no threats to anybody's RL game industry like the lottery system. If this is truely a virtual community then it needs to stay virtual and not tie into RL. LIke any game it's meant to be fun and imaginative. I think in some ways SL has swung to far one way and found no balance in teh middle. Time for the pedulum to swing back so we can find that middle line.

As far as tringo goes.. one element is missing in all this hoop la. One big difference here with Tringo is that Tringo is DONATION .. meaning if a player chooses to pay they may . if not they may still play UNLESS it's set by the boards owner or host sets the game up to be a pay to play game. If the board is not set to pay to play and peopel choose not to pay into the pot that takes away the gambling aspect of it. BUT hosts cannot expect payment into the pot from anyone at any time or even an ammount back into the pot.

Game of chance, or game of skill.. what's the diff.. if there is no exchange of valuable currency then problem is pretty much eliminated.. Why not play for ranks or master status in leagues or some silly thing like that instead. Do we HAVE to play for Lindens or RL currency?? A game is a game,, meant to entertain and in most cases, bring people together. This seems to be about that all mighty buck instead of looking at the original intent of SL in the beginning and what it was designed for.. creativity and social aspects. There is so much more to SL then the exchange of L's and such ..

When you look at that law it's all aimed at the currency thing,, and since games of chance and luck are the most common way to get that currency ,, they will aim the law at that. A law is a law ,, right or wrong.. this is SL House and as such we are guests in this house. I don't like some if the things but I choose to stay because I can adapt, that's part of teh challenge for me,, A game of Tringo can be just that .. a game with absolutely no lindens exchanged at all . just a group of people wanting to visit, chat, gossip what have you and play a game. if nothing is exchanged, there is no risk of the RL currency being threatened.

HOpe this makes sense.. and yes it's likely to stirr up a pot of trouble .. but lease I ask ,, just think this through before replying..

Amaya

I wonder whether a simple change to the wording might solve all these questions.

Prohibition of 'games traditionally found in real world Casinos, such as Blackjack, Poker, Roulette, slot machines etc, and their derivatives" would then mean real games of skill, such as Tringo, Slingo etc.

I personally support the ban on gambling - but don't like things like Tringo being lumped in with it. It's overreaching, like the ban on ageplay including genuine harmless child avatars and short people.

Broccoli

I think this is correct, that ultimately "sweepstakes" games will be allowed, as long as payout is in no way contingent on contributing to the pot, and all the usual sweepstakes legal disclaimers are distributed to players. But I'd expect that clarification (and the boilerplate language) to take a while.

Just in passing, in response to another point in the posting, the law really has nothing to do with protecting state-run lottery revenue--that is wishful thinking (or disinformation) on the part of online-gambling advocates. If one could look under the covers at the programs that run online gaming, one would see why it is addictive to the point of mind-control--vastly more insidious than RL gaming. Granted, SL scripters probably aren't up to that level of manipulation, restricted as they are to little 16KB chunks of program+data memory. But the law is controlling something very, very dangerous. Online gaming is not something innocent like your corner bookie with the mafia ties; it's more like your corner crack-house with Big Brother ties.

That would go for any business owner in SL Susie, not just gambling and if that is the reason for the ban then all businesses are going to get a kicking.

Are games like Skeeball also gonna be banned?
This doesn't look like gambling in my opinion ...........

Under international tax law, you usually pay income tax to the country in which you reside, rather than where you earned the income. For example, I pay tax on my SL earnings to the UK government.

Earning money in a different country to where you're physically located isn't a new thing. People did that *long* before SL and the internet appeared. Tax law is pretty well established on the matter.



IAUI, no nation has attempted to levy tax at "virtual word asset" level yet (although the Australian government were making noises in that direction recently(ugh!)). But yes, of course you can tax deduct a graphics tablet that you bought for creating SL content, just like you would deduct any other legitimate business expense.

... and if your accountant really does glaze over when you explain this stuff to him ... get a better accountant.

Welcome to the Second Life of America.

Sometimes laws in different countries are mutually exclusive. In UK some experts advise people not to intervene in an emergency in case they are sued by the victim if the 'help' actually causes more harm. Across the channel in France it is the law that citizens MUST come to the aid of someone in an emergency.

Banknotes and cheques are really virtual money as they were originally just 'promisary notes' as proof that you intended to give that person the coins due to them at some later date.

Which leads me to wonder...

What if designed a large gold coin, in world, that represented a new currency called the Woot. If I issued the currency, which could be checked for forgeries through inspecting the creator, and it took on an in-world value - could it be legally gambled if it had no official rate of exchange with the L$ or any RL currencies?

Well-said and exactly what I have been thinking. Bearing arms is illegal in the UK, how would LL feel if I started a campaign to ban guns from Second Life? I find them highly offensive, not to mention barbaric and primitive ... why should I have to put-up with them?

See the point I am making here? How can sitting at a slingo game, chatting to friends, sharing fun, and spending just a few lindens (or none at all) possibly be harmful? How can it be even remotely as harmful as shooting someone in cold blood? No, they're not real guns on SL, but they are in America. And some people there still prefer them to having fun with friends, it seems.

Gamblers hurt no one but themselves. "Bang Bang! You're dead! Ha-Ha!" moronic idiots can hurt a great number of people. The whole thing is PATHETIC.

The other thread was locked for the whole anti-america give and take. Theres no real reason for it.

In America its actually really easy to gamble. In a regulated, taxed fashion. In the US games are actually checked to make sure the House isnt cheating, for example.

Online Gambling is neither regulated or taxed.

Because a gun in SL is a simulation of a gun. Gambling in SL is real gambling.

I don't see why this point isn't so blindingly obvious to everyone else that they feel embarrassed even suggesting it, but I have to keep pointing it out again and again.

Besides which, UK law is the next best thing to irrelevant in SL, since SL is run by a US business, on US soil, by US employees.



No, honestly, I don't. This was never about what was harmful. This was about what was LEGAL. IE, what would get SL's severs confiscated, lindens thrown in jail, etc.



/anti gambling mode on

Actually, gamblers often hurt their entire families, not just themselves.

/anti gambling mode off

A moron with a simulated Glock in SL cannot hurt anyone with it.

It's not a moral issue it's a legal issue.

Simulated violence is a perfectly acceptable passtime for those who choose it, we are all 18 or over so we have the right to choose violence as entertainment, most mmorpgs are violence based right now right?

Gambling, however, is strictly regulated in the home country of LL I assume it is also regulated in the UK, you can't make a website and have casino games on it in the USA, so this nice little loophole of making real life money through SL has to end before a lawsuit closes SL.

I hate to disappoint you but the games in the US are approximately as dishonest as they are online. In theory you have laws which protect the player from cheating by the house. Good luck with that. In the very worst cases a dealer will get scapegoated, but even there you have to have a phenomenal amount of evidence to get your complaint taken seriously. Most of the big gambling states, Nevada in particular, is government by the casino, for the casino, and of the casino. The Nevada state legislature is not going to jeopardize its tax revenue because you got dealt a second.

Actually only SL gambling is only neither regulated or taxed.

Most online gambling sites are regulated in countries which allow it such as Antigua, or the Isle of man. There is even an Indian reserve in Canada which offers regulatory services however the Canadian government doesn't agree with it but probably wont do anything about it.

All sites that are run in these countries are highly regulated and they pay taxes too, but not to the American government. Hence the reason for the ban on online gambling in America, i bet it wouldn't have happen if it were American sites that held market share and the taxes were going to the US government rather than some other countries tax coffers.

Also as a result of this new American law the US has had trade sanctions placed on it by the countries which allow these online gambling sites.
The US tried to have this overturned because apparently it breaks agreements with the world trade organization (WTO) however the WTO didn't accept these arguments and these trade sanctions will remain.

Home of the free my ass, you cant even import goods from Antigua (hell, i don't even know if they have anything worth importing) but i'm as free as i like to import goods from wherever i like in my country.



edited for spelling

The Antigua-US WTO trade dispute seems one-sided, but it may not be. One of the options open to Antigua is to suspend intellectual copyright for American products. That means they could mass-produce Hollywood blockbusters and US TV without paying a cent in royalties. The WTO can give them permission to do that if they ask for it.

That would probably force the US to cave in over online gambling, since the alternative would cost them billions.

While interesting I somehow doubt Antigua is going to suceed in holding the US hostage over not allowing internet gambling.

We will see, Im sure.