Current Thoughts and Solutions to new ban.

Ok. So like many others this little stink up that linden labs has introduced to our own little "user created world" (anyone smell a stink on that one?) ive also been effected as a creator of these now banned machines. as well as many casino owners and game creators. (so much for creativity)

Anyways. so its now time to start thinking of solutions to drive a successful buisness insted of flooding the market with weapons and clothes.

Linden labs has hopefully opened a new door for us to go into but the thing is we need to organize and establish a working system.

So. here are a few ideas that i believe can be worked on and still keep out gaming world in tact.

so.. the main 3 things that have to be in place for it to be considered a gambling item is

1. Pay into item 2. Random number and 3. pay out

we need to find a way of eliminating one of these 3.

since theres really no REAL way to eliminate number 2. we have to eliminate number 1 or 3 and substitute it.

what are the ways we can do this?

1. Go the Boardwalk route. Charge people to play your games... but recieve tokens which they can use to buy stuff.

this is a valid solution. however the items would have to be transferable. to be bought by the gaming manager..and placed on display to be transfered apon validation of tickets.

even better if there can be a unified vendor system based off this. taking in "tokens or Tickets"


2. Pachinko Palor Route.
This would involve also eliminating step 3. by offering a cheap prize.. which would be bought by a "collector of cheap prizes". this is probably the most shady route.. people would gain or lose via this method much like the gambling times.. but whos to say what someone can or cant buy item wise.

this would probably be the hardest to actually do.. since it may still be considered gambling.

3. Token pay in... token pay out.. route.
Pay for tokens.. use them in gaming devices.. pays out tokens.. tokens bought back.. like a true valueless currency. IOUs if you will. since the rules state that the currency must have value.. the items do not have true value in rl dollars.. they are simply objects of a world. the Linden dollar has the value. but a object would not.

this is my only other solution.

im all for #1 and #3 in all honesty. i dont think #2 will succeed.

but i would like to get some feed back on what you think will take gambling's place.

im all up for boardwalk type gaming in secondlife. its fun. and even though you pay more to get the item your working for. you paid for the entertainment.

You don't get to control whether or not the object has value. If a significant group of participants is willing to give you something of value in exchange for the object, then the object has value.

The use of tokens at various gaming parlors or the use of prizes of limited value are often to take advantage of loopholes in state gambling laws. The US Federal ban against wagering on the Internet has no such loopholes, as far as I know.

eather way my solution is going to be based on #1

i have a basic system already planned in my head about how it will work.

games will still be paid to play.. but the outcome will be something else not based on value of Money or Linden. if it flys.. it flys.. if not.. well i guess ill join the others back in the weapons market where i first made my start.

but i wont say i didnt try.. give it time. a solution will come

No, Kidd is right..

If the tokens can be exchanged for things that you would otherwise have had to pay L$ for, then the value of the tokens is equal to the value of those L$.

unless stated that the object given has no value in exchange of L$ or RL money.

which is why the ticket/token boardwalk route may be the way to go.

exchanging tickets/points/tokens for prebought transferable items.

obviously the money would come in those who place money to gain the tickets to win the items.

or even games that can be loaded with prizes of low to high desire and value with the hopes of winning that expensive item for simple play. it could even be items that the boardwalk owner builds theirself.

When they said anything of value. I am pretty sure they were talking about items too.


Also, Number 2 is pretty much money laundering.

Go ahead and make "tokens" that you will exhange for L$ (reguardless of the statement that they are worthless).

Two words.

CopyBot.

Bankrupt.

~Jessy

who said the tokens had to be a item.

My solution would be a wearable item that only gains points/tokens when played while sitting on the object that you are playing.

the points are tallied internally in the object and will be secured from easy hacking.. most likly in the form of a random channel set per sitting.

these points would then be traded in for the object of desire. and reduced by the boardwalk owner or machine.

i wouldnt have a non scripted item represent that stuff what so ever. that would be foolish.

plus to clarify im eliminating 2 and 3 from my possible outcome of solution. my main solution would be a points/ticket system use to trade in for items.. not money.

LL's rules are fluid precisely to counter the whole "let's look for a loophole" mentality.

It doesn't matter what you come up, your desire is to create a gambling device that stays clear of the rules as they're laid out, but in the end you're still creating a gambling device and you know it's in violation of the essence of the new policy.

I don't think any can speak for LL here, unless I'm mistaken.

I would speculate though, from what I know, is that they will put the kibosh on anything that has words that evoke traditional casinos. Blakjack, slots, poker, etc. It's an optics thing for them, and those words have a pretty bad image.

Slingo/Tringo are gambling in the same way poker is gambling. You make bets and they're skill based with a significant element of luck. But is LL coming down hard on Slingo/Tringo? Not that I am aware of, and I suspect it is simply because they are not well known gambling terms.

i would still assume they will be attacked by LL as much.. they require payment.. rely on random numbers as well as skill and pay back ..

thats like saying my deal or decline game will be ok because it relys on the skill of the person to successfully know when to stop.

if linden doesnt stop slingo then i dont see why i should stop deal or decline. it would only be as fair.

Yeah unfortunally i think slingo is going to be getting into it as well.

Heh copybot cannot copy the creator value, only the superficial look, it also cant copy scripts which could be placed into the object to validate it's authenticity. obviously only tokens that had the original creators name would be redeemable, all others would be "counterfeit" and easliy noticable as such.

You can't loophole this. LL will just close the loopholes.

And you sure as hell can't discuss the loopholes here.

I'd say the only solution is to lobby Congress to repeal the Internet Gambling law. That proposal is already in the works.

My concern is, the language of the new policy indicates that the essential question is now defined as LL is taking on the role of enforcing the idea that LL must stop the possibility of someone using SL to break local laws. Taken to it's ultimate extreme, SL would have to stop EVERYONE from doing ANYTHING that is illegal SOMEWHERE.

The way I read their message, they seem to be saying that in order to keep US residents from breaking US gambling laws, they must prohibit everyone from gambling.

So to keep a Chinese person from breaking Chinese speech laws, LL would have to ban free speech all over SL. If it is against the law in a village in Uzbekistan to masturbate, SL can not be a vehicle that could possibly provoke the Uzbeki village idiot to play with himself after going to Purgatory and seeing me strip - then LL has to ban stripping. If you can't be sure that no Muslim wives are cheating on their husbands in cyberspace after Saudi Arabia makes hotchat a capital offense - then LL has to ban sex animations.

The token idea could work, it depends on how LL wants to define a value.
Such works in Japan, the locations sell tokens, but they can not buy them, as that would be illegal, however next door to most of the buildings is a building that just happens to buy tokens for money.

Technically its a legal there as well, but it never stops them its more regarded as a trade i believe.

Chances are, it is more then possible to make a token system thats more secure then Linden Labs keeps your credit card data.

Unfortunately, you may find the simple fact of paying money to win anything (money, tokens, clothes, balloons) could be considered to be "gambling" and incur the wrath of the Lindens.

But they DON'T require payment. You can play Slingo, Bingo, etc. based on voluntary contribution to the pot.

Therefore, they are not gambling.

coco

Hmmm, so if the wager is voluntary than it doesn't count? Interesting idea.

Very interesting idea indeed.

Are poker tables that dont handle $L legal, ie if i just want to play poker without losing or winning with a friend is that allowed or will the sight of a poker table anywhere casue instant AR's.

The solution is easy. We, as game creators, use what we have learned making games of chance and expand on it. Before we did not make arena style games of skill or other types of gaming because it was far easier & more lucrative to make slots etc. Now, the rules have changed.

So, we just have to work a little harder to create alternate forms of entertainment. The money wont be as good ... at first. But so long as people come to SL in order to have fun, we just adapt and work with the rules set out for us. The market will exist so long as people want to be entertained. It will just be a different market.

Like many, this hit me in the wallet too. I'm not going to stop being creative though. Just have to work a little harder and be more innovative.

-Rav

Don't think so Coco, playing Slingo for the fun of having the top score will be fine but once you get into the pay in/pay out equation, it's a no no.

LOL ...

If you consider that L$ can be exchanged for/have to be bought initially by SOMEONE for cash then the whole of SL is open to money laundering.

Just playing devil's advocate there tho cos I think the whole concept of trying to buck the system on this is simply going to cause trouble ...

Time to think of something NEW to make which makes money folks.

(Imagine a world with no camping ... no gambling ... no escorting ... could be utopia ... could be less people online ... who knows yet)

I think he's right Coco, sadly.

There is the 'playing for leaderboard' angle still but as a rule contributing to the pot is still playing to win the pot ... it's still gambling.

I think when they mean competitions they mean 'Best in a Flowerpot', 'Sexy in Prims' and all that malarky ...

I don't think that a game where you need to pay entry fees and have a chance to win the 'pot', mainly by skill, is considered as gambling.

However, the amount of skill and sheer luck in such a game is important. For example... in blackjack or roulette, it's mostly about luck... in a racing game, where you need to drive a car or something, it's mostly about skill.

I know that for Texas Hold'em poker when played for longer periods one needs as much skill as luck but on shorter terms... it's as much a gamble for an average participant as roulette.

So, I don't know much about Slingo/Tringo, but a competition-like game with entry fee and a prize will not be banned. I do believe that Lindens govern by common sense (like.. have you heard of any Gorean villages closed down because of an AR (see 'broadly offensive' blogpost)) and so you don't need to panic.