Should there be a Land Regulation Committee in SL

Land ownership and land trade is a serious business in SL and can no way be misconstrued as a game any longer. We need regulation, we need a set of rules that are enforcable from mainland sales to island sale, penalties for not following rules and most importantly some kind of licensure to garantee that land traders are honest and respectable.
Not only do we need these things, but we need LL to support this effort and allow this group to have a say in the daily function within Linden Labs. SL mirrors RL in many ways, from economics to parties and good time. Land Regulation is for the better of everyone wanting to conduct business or pleasure inside SL.

I'd like to hear from the larger land traders that frequent these hollowed forums about thier imput and how far they would go to making the land trade in SL a cleaner enviroment

We don't need any such thing. The existing mechanisms are appropriate.

LL doesn't even do maintenance on land anymore. They have taken their badge off and are leaving us to shoot it out amongst ourselves.

1. First Land was stopped do to corruption

2. Mainland prices skyrocketed, partly due to the large amount of speculators investing into the market.

3 The land sale search (estate) is corrupted with advertisement for rentals

4. No accountibilty, Wild West shootout style of doing business

5 People wrongly ejected from their Private sim land. for no apparent reason

6 Greifer and mafioso hideouts thrive

7 Protected, abandoned, and inactive land is no longer being processed

8 No set of definable rules leaves people to make up thier own rules, high rate of vigilante sim owners

Any more? I could list the reasons all night but some of my reasons might sound petty.

Can anyone think of more problems with the land trade in SL?


I would say though that theres maybe $400,000 USD in land traded every day, no safegaurds, no regulation, no accountibility, those numbers are far too high for a no accountability world.

I don't think this is appropriate at all.

SL is like the wild west right, the current 'land rush' (or gold rush) is an interesting development in the world and I for one am enjoying following it's progress. Land prices are high at the moment but they WILL fall. There has been a huge influx of new residents and the release of new sims has not kept up with the demand, therefore it's been a sellers market. I don't know exactly what you mean by the term 'honest and respectable' It's pretty hard for a land seller to be dishonest. They buy land and put it up for sale. A player then has the choice to purchase the land or not. Selling the land at an extortionately high price doesn't make them dishonest or un-respectable. No one is forcing a player to buy the land. Buying up huge quantities of land in order to increase the overall market price of land is not dishonest or un-respectable, it's just business and is an obvious progression within any environment where there is a large amount of money to be made. Developing bots to swoop in and purchase land within seconds of it being put up for sale is not dishonest or un-respectable, it's simply the development of a tool to automate and monopolize the land selling business and was an entirely predictable development. Overall i'm really interested to see what the state of the market will be in 6 - 12 months. I think we should let SL be as unregulated as possible, we are all grown ups on the main grid, we are all intelligent enough to own and operate a computer, interact within a virtual world and make our own decisions. At the end of the day as long as the average buyer doesn't get ripped off and by that i mean, they receive the land they pay for, then there is no need for regulation and restriction.

The best way to protect yourself is not to expose yourself to risk.


1. Simply don't buy parcels that you think cost too much.

2. Don't pay ahead on a rental more than you are willing to risk.



If you think about it, the Company has no divine assurances. There is nothing keeping a single customer on the grid.

So asking the company to regulate or licence simply *offsets the risk* to them. Essentially making them a LLoyds of Linden.

They would have to raise our rates in direct proportion to the risk they offset.

An interesting idea, but honestly, I don't want to pay to cover other people's foolishness in business dealings. Do any of you?

Also, must people who are good in business ensure that everyone else's financial dealings hold up, no matter how ridiculous or untenable they are?

Personally, I see *any* attempt at trying to live off mainland trading as essentially financial suicide. You are acting directly at cross purposes to your service provider if you do that.

Market liquidity is worth something, but it sure isn't worth driving off customers to other platforms with insane prices.

* * * * *

So my recommendation: Since it takes two for any business deal, just say no if the proposition puts you at too much risk. Basic business 101.

Mainland... well... it's just too easy for anyone to sell off a dozen 16m nuisance advertising plots near you, run off and you are stuck.

Not sure what to tell you there if it gets nasty; that's a feature of the mainland, not land barony per se. There is probably more to fear from a small vindictive neighbour doing that, to be honest.

This is why I don't get involved in mainland much.


If dealing with a land baron on the long term (private islands, say) - get to know them and their island community personally *before* pitching in with them.

See who their friends are, see how long they have been around, see what sort of people stay in the sims. Of course, anyone that *stays* is happy, so see how similar you are to them. Maybe you won't be happy in a sim full of goths, for instance (or maybe you will love it).

Most of all, see if a region is deeply in the black, financially. Occupancy * rates - tier. Profit will keep the person running the region dedicated and involved. If they are losing money or barely breaking even, run screaming.

I dont think the buying and selling of land is dishonest, nor is Elanthius's land bot, The dishonesty part lies mostly with Sim Owners. Changing covenants without notificatio and grandfathering. Ejecting thier land owners without just reason. Advertising rentals in the land SALES search. Advertising Double Prim lots and taking away the double prim rights when the sim is full to sell more land.

I hear alot of horror stories as a sim owner myself. I cant speak for everyone but land regulation could only be a good thing for those people trying to run a decent and respectible business, as they would be able to boast that they abide by those starndars set in the regulation guidlines,and can only be a good thing for those looking to buy personal or business land for themselves because they know the seller is a trusted and respectible land dealer.

No one likes rules and regulations, and for all I know most large land traders are respectible, ( I wont mention your names becuase I dont want to single you out as being respectible) but there is always a renegade group out there that isnt mature, or able to conduct business in a professional manner.

Think of it this way, Buyer A is looking for land, he sees Seller A selling land and claims that he or her adheres to strong ethical policies and is a member of a regulator land commission ensuring they are a reputable land dealer. Seller B is not a member of this "commission" and can offer no substantial evidence or proof of his or her honest and fair dealings... Who would you invest your money in?

Kind of like the RL REALTOR® logo that can be displayed

And im not talking about land insurance or anything that cost, or escrows and such, but a set of basic rules that would protect buyers in the event that a land deal goes south, as it is now , there is no recourse, and the amount of money being skimmed off by a few bad Land owners is reaching into the 10's of thousands

I'm with you on this, but:

1) Who decides who is honest (how do you stop logos from being sold?), and,

2) What exactly is recourse, if it isn't covered by cold, hard cash?


I've had people come to me to 'vouch' for this land reseller or that, or this sim owner or that. Dozens of times over the past year. Honestly, what happens if I'm wrong?

Firstly, anyone on a regulatory commission shouldnt be allowed to sell more land than would be considered personal use, say 5 plots or less at any given time.

Next a group could be established for instance Second Life Land Commission(SLLC) with a set of officers that rotate on a 3 month basis(volunteers) and a list of members.

As far as enforcement, Fines can be levied against those members that are behaving inappropriately, Failure to pay fines would result in expulsion. For those outside the SLLC, LL would themselves have to agree to warn, suspend and ban residents on the recomendation of the commission, much like Live help is now, those live help lindens are volunteers, not actual employees.

As long as a body of people exist without alterior motive, I think Linden Labs would support and endorse this commision

A list of known unreputable sim owners and Land dealers AND their offenses can be stored offsite and promoted by all members in profiles or in thier for sale signs and boxes.

It would really only take the 5 biggest land traders and sellers in SL to reach 75% of the buying public

This idea would help the land traders as much as the buyers. Imagine forum where land traders arent getting bashed and spoken badly of 5000 times a day!

Please don't take my discussion here as hostile - it isn't, I'm actually trying to help by spotlighting some issues.



First off, your proposal would make for an interesting regulatory commission.

Just a few seats on that would control hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of business.

Desmond isn't my first avatar. If "Desmond" doesn't reveal his first life identity, how do you know he's not on your board?

The very people you are trying to regulate, i.e. anonymous, disreputable land barons, are the people who could most easily co-opt the whole thing.


Second, if you are looking for an offsite, documented mechanism to record offences, look no further than Travis's BanLink. http://www.slbanlink.com/

Say you want to shoot down your competition - just five alts with horror stories could do the trick. With tens of thousands of dollars on the line, you can decide for yourself if such a ruse is inevitable.

Personally, I'm deeply philosophically opposed to such ban lists, though BanLink is pretty popular (and I'm a big fan of Travis in every other way; he's a good guy).

Who watches the watchmen?


If there's ever a real solution to these questions, I'm onboard 110%.

But so far, I think it's better that we all understand we live in the Wild West, rather than think we are civilised in a system that will most likely be far more corrupt.

Who watches your local police force? Who watches you local City Council? Who watches your local anything? There is absolutely no oversight for anything in SL. It is "the wild wild west". But the wild west was settled some 100 years ago............I don't want to go back to that. How about you?

The average user of SL is looking for nothing more than an opportunity to have fun and to maybe make some lindens to offset the cost. They are NOT looking for legal ways to protect themselves from people who are looking for quick profits on their "investments". Most are very open to gouging and being cheated. There needs to be some kind of protection. If there is no protections at the moment. SL will become nothing more than a "who can cheat who the most and make the most before it all dies" unless something is put in place.

Who watches the watchmen?

Well we do...............but we have no power to fix it. That's the problem. Most of us are helpless.

Not a good thing.

Alot of good points, The "Wild West" has been repeatedly compared to SL by myself and others, its important to remember one thing, while the wild west full of adventure and pioneering a new land, it was also full of crooks, cheats, and low down dirty people, not hardly a place one would want to invest into. Now I realise not EVERYONE in SL is into investment and profits, but enough are. And there certainly is no shortage of crooks cheats and low down dirty people, and i know you will never have a perfect system, but thats no reason to not try and make it better, else we would have gave up on the starving children, homelessness, poverty and them lil seals.

A commission wouldnt be in control of thousands of dolllars, only provide a framework for business ethics, and penalties for not adhering to them. Will there be false accusations.. most definately...will there be wrongful penalties , most likely. tarnished reputations, definately, but will it be for the greater good? simply yes.

This is a type of topic that if you agree to , it shows you genuinely care for the SL enviroment, but adversly, if you disagree....well anyway.

ATheres many things that will be coming to SL in the near future, you name it, its on the way, already have upstarts of politics, cults, and Slollywoold. But above all those things, Land and the use of land, stands way above everything else in SL, you could go so far as to say, the best businesspeople in SL are involved in land, and the worse business people are involved in land,

I probably couldn't agree more, Jackson. But there is a very prevailant attitude in SL about "don't regulate anything". Just let us do as we please, when we please, and how we please.........there is a term for that: Anarchy. It ruins the whole thing for most people while a few just simply love it. I really like SL ( a year ago I would have said "I love" SL).

Your question is a very relevant and genuine question........concerning the well being of every resident in SL. And it also shows a conern for Linden Labs too. I'm begining to think the folks at LL are so wrapped up in the development of Sl as a program that they think the "minor" stuff such as some "working the system" is not important enough to give much more than a passing nod that "yeah, we need to address that....someday". I really don't want to think that they really don't care.

Someone needs to give us the power to help. By us I mean the average user...........not the land barons, sim owners and private island owners. Us...............the average user.

Great topic.

Assuming I've inspected the two parcels being offered for sale, and they are comparable, I'll go over to whichever one is cheapest and click "buy." I still don't see how the character of the seller of a piece of land has any impact on its value to me. As the system stands now, LL does the escrow duty, transferring title to me and cash to the seller.

Now it seems you may be speaking of privately-owned estates, not mainland. Yes, I can see where the character of my landlord is a big deal. It's easy enough for me to simply find land with no large up-front fee, and just pay my rent on a weekly basis. Then, if worse comes to worse, I'm only out a week's rent.

There are already 3rd-party websites where one can read complaints about private estate owners.

Though I think that it would be mostly applicable to Private sims, merit of a seller has alot to do with my purchase. I dont give profit to someone that dont deserve it, unless its a really good deal and i can temperarily forgive thier evil ways

I think given the same type of land at the same price, that 95% of the buyers would buy from a person that has a affiliation with some verifiable ethical land committee. The other 5%... well lost souls are just that, lost souls

So Jackson, will you allow people to rent land out from private island if such a committee exist?

Or you will ban people from rent land out from private island all together?

I could have nothing to do with the committee as I am a sim owner who sells land, it would be conflict of interest

As to rentals, personally I think rentals are a great thing as long as they are marketed as rentals and stay off the land sales search. Roughly 65k sq m of land on my sims are rentals, not owned by me but by other owners that own on my sim.

Land sales search being used as a advertisement for rentals, is wrong for a number of reasons.
1. Its misleading, no matter what is in the description, it shouldnt be in the land sales search.
2 Its circumvention of other forms of advertisement that is provided in SL such as classified ads, I presume that the primary reason they are listed in the land sales search is to avoid paying classified fee's
3 Data server load. Simple math, less listings = better performance


Perhaps the easiest fix would be to make a new classified section that are free. OR even better, someone get the bright idea to actaully make a SL periodical that is worth reading. Or possiblly more awareness to the land rental forums here at SL and at SLex

There are ways to make it work without impededing bonifide land sales

To be honest, yes I do think a 'land committee' could be far, far, far worse than what is out there now.

It smacks of over-reaching resident government.


The moment you try to set up a grid-wide institution, you better get it right. REALLY right.

Would people be so evil as to game a committee? The Resident Answer here is "You can bank on it."

Let's take the most basic situation. Pretend for a moment that Desmond the avatar would profit greatly from being on this committee. You would never know I was Des, even if I gave you first life info for the committee.


I've already got a good enough reputation to tell it like it is. There's no "you are either for this regulation thing or you are evil" nonsense that will fly with me.

Any regulation committee will be corrupted, and fast. Too much money on the table. I remember back in June 2006 even the Company was telling people stipends were being farmed, and few still believed it - it was more than they could imagine. But still happened.

There have already been a number of 'better business bureaus' on the grid too; all have essentially failed. Why? Because people attack their competitors with alts, making up all kinds of nonsense.

Make a system that will work and I'll be with you. But so far this looks like just another expensive learning exercise, with real money at stake.

Try for transparency instead.

Make it clear who has what at stake, and suddenly it will be pretty clear who has motive to stay clean in business and who doesn't. That's the real issue.

The SL citizenry largely consists of 12 year old nutballs. I really hope we don't start giving them any power over their peers. For that and several other reasons I'm strongly opposed to this idea.

hmm Jackson , thing is based on what you write i do not think you are fit for the job. However i am not either, and if you and me aren't who else isn't fit for this job?

I mean you have somewhere to have someone that direct the whole thing, but thing is i don't see anybody in SL that would do it unbiased and without getting the power corrupt him.

So since we can't find the proper person, i would say to give up this idea.

Hey Jackson, here's an idea that might make both of us happy:

Develop simple contracts for common SL transactions that are enforceable in RL. Make known how to enforce the contracts.

Not being a lawyer, it is quite probable that I am making some unwarranted assumptions. But it seems to me that if Estate Owner A and Parcel Buyer 1 make a written contract, then one or the other of them could go to Small Claims if need be. Because of the international coverage of SL residents, the contracts may have to specify which courts have jurisdiction.

But I think in-world arbitration might be best. As an estate owner, I would include in my covenant my willingness to submit to arbitration from a specified outfit (or an outfit agreed to by them), should my customers feel the need to escalate a dispute. I would back that with a L$ bond equal to or greater than the value of any one parcel that I sell (held by the arbitrator).

There is no need for an in-world body to control us. Let us be free! However, many of us will find it easier to do business if we get over the idea that SL isn't "real" and there are no consequences when we commit theft or fraud, and if we educate our customers on what protections they already may enjoy.

I rarely disagree with Desmond on most issues within Second Life, as I know that he has some pretty reasonable experience of online worlds and the Caledon Group of Sims speaks for itself from a business viewpoint. However that is Second Life business. In short a lot of people come into SL for entertainment of one kind or another, have a limited "spend" on their hobby and real life economics is going to restrict the spend.

As for Second Life business operations, and as in first life, you need to do your calculations carefully. As Desmond said nobody can save people from rank stupidity although (as in first life) their have been many doomed efforts by well meaning people.

But....there is a general; exception to the above, and that is all of us need to distinguish first life from Second Life. This world is increasingly used as a platform by mostly reputable first life companies to promote goods and services. A clear and easy example for us all to review here is Dell the computer company that has a good and reputable service (from my viewpoint) selling machines from its website. As we all know there is a Dell Island within Second Life where you can all do the same, that is buy a computer within Second Life to use for general use, as in first life. In those circumstances I would both expect and demand the same legal protections that exist in first life. And I would get them, after all the Lindens do not regulate Dell. I do not believe anyone would disagree with me on this point.

But where life becomes very much harder is the regulation of business that exists entirely within Second Life but requires that first life is 100% involved. That is the business comes from WITHIN Second Life and is WHOLY dependent on Second Life, rather than COMES IN to Second Life from first life like Dell and for example Vodafone, IBM, ABN AMRO, and Cisco all of which are here in Second Life

The prime example is the Ginko Bank, a wholly Second Life business that (according to their website) invests to achieve its return on equity almost entirely in first life and cannot be contacted or verified in First Life

Therefore I believe that although it may not be possible for Linden Labs to regulate such first life business operations, it should be a requirement that any businesses or avatar offering first life goods or services via the Second Life platform loose the right to secrecy. In other words they should be required to provide robust verification of identity in first life to enable first life legal protection, thus NOT involving Linden Labs in enforcing commerce outside their own domain.

Finally I should add I do use Second Life as an advertising base for first life financial services and I do provide robust first life contact details that can be verified.

Regards

John

yup, hit it right on the head..

I'm all for shedding secrecy, but there's one nasty problem which crops up in a world of a first-life identified businessperson in an otherwise anonymous world.

Please forgive the directness of this, but here's the subtle little problem.



I don't want someone entering my first life information into every beastiality porn magazine offer. Then using it to order me 25 pizzas over the internet one day.

Finally, when the local Evangelist emergency church team rushes over to answer "my" desperate call at 2 in the morning, I'll open the door only to discover the For Sale sign that a local realtor has put on my lawn at "my" request behind the sleepy but highly motivated god squad.

I'll have a mere four hours to get rid of the people trying to save my soul, because then I'll be shoo-ing away the early-bird house shoppers. Open House, you know - early Saturday morning is a fine day for house shopping!

But contacting the realtor will be difficult, because my gas, phone and internet will suddenly all be cut off late Friday afternoon before a holiday.

I don't live in the UK, John, I live within less than 1 hour's drive of over six million Californians.

Don't even ask how I know this sort of thing is easy to do; we were all college students once, mmmm? And that's all I'll say about that... grins