Definition of Theft?

People would make alts and then go shopping at their own stores. I could spend thousands of Lindens per day by just giving an alt my Lindens and have him sit there and buy stuff. As long as I just keep feeding him Lindens and he keeps buying, I would have thousands of sales per day and not make a penny.

Well in fact I think it is not that hard to think of a system that can at least be gamed to a much smaller degree. Take for example my visitor counter. It counts each and every visitor, as long as they are unique for a certain time frame. So if at the end of the day I get my list of 102 persons, they were on my parcel.

The only thing this system would not consider, is the amount of time spent. So maybe count the time as well, but to a maximum of 1 hour (as example). This can still be gamed by bots that log in for 1 hour a day, but the impact is way less then the current version.

But in the end, LL does not mind the bots. Does not even mind the traffic gaming. The figures they can present, are as inflated as the traffic on a bot runners parcel. So I would say, bots are only profitable to LL, not a burden. Whether we like it or not.

This could be protected against, though, and I think it would actually be a good idea in some other ways.

When Lindens are bought for US$, they are "Shiny Lindens". As soon as they are transferred to someone else, they stop being shiny. If you have both in your account, non-shiny Lindens are always spent before Shiny ones.

You could then base measurements on the number of Shiny Lindens spent at a store - thus the products which were most successful at attracting customers who made a genuine real money sacrifice to buy the products.

They would definitely be replaced by (owner occupied) camping pads, and by all sorts of other avatars such as models - all of which would be down where the people are, causing lag and using unnecessary system resources. Traffic bots in compounds/boxes way up in the sky are up there to avoid lag and resource useage. Creepy or not, they are far better than ground avatars.

Uniques that spend a minimum amount of time on the parcel in a 24 hour period could work, except for one thing - places that have other things on the same parcel.

When I started using traffic bots, I was competing with a place that had several different shops and a club on the same parcel. The club was used by people, and all those people counted as traffic for each of the shops. The uniques system would give such places a very significant start.

Malls are worse. Malls where the land isn't divided into store size parcels will count uniques through their whole stay in the mall, and they will be counted for each little shop even when nobody enters some of them.

There really isn't a good way of ranking the places in the Places tab, except by it going over to the Google system, as is/was planned by LL.

Which, on the other hand, would render the purchases of everybody earning enough linden dollars in SL worthless? The last half year I never purchased linden dollars, yet I do spend quite a bit. So again not really a good thing.

Like a broken record: what is wrong with Search All? Which is not trafic nor sales based?

I don't think I can recall even a single instance in which the new search helped me find something I wanted.

I gave it another serious try this weekend even since I thought it wouldn't hurt to look at some stores I normally wouldn't visit... I crawled through 4 pages of results for each item and found nothing but junk after junk. You couldn't even pay me to buy anything in most of them.

Then I tried my usual way which is to just randomly tp around to places I like, look at the creator names on things that are there that I like and then tp to their store. I found most of the things I wanted in a fraction of the time I spent fighting with search, found a whole lot of unrelated items I loved and last but not least the general quality of those stores was far above and beyond what search subjected me to.

Just because you search for X and the first store that turns up happens to sell X doesn't mean search is a success when there isn't anything I even half like after 4 pages' worth.

How come you managed to go through 4 pages of them? Web-based search? The reason I ask is to find out if the scrolling problems you had have been fixed.

Kitty, what you want is impossible. No Search engine whatsoever can predict what you want. Nor what you like. Not even can they select on quality. That is simply impossible.

What it can do, is make it as easy as possible to find what you want. One of the most popular search engines seems to do that pretty well, Google would not be what it is today if it didn't do its job. So it does find relevant results. It is up to you to like them or not. Right clicking an object you like and look for the creator, will never be beaten by a search engine.

Like I said, several times, Phil....Understood. Totally. I read you loud and clear, so no reason to go farther down that road, for either one of us. It's Negative Dialogue, to no one's benefit, and I prefer to concentrate on Positive Exchanges, even if the views and thoughts are opposing. I've seen your exchanges get really ugly, before, and I don't wish to be a part of that, and regret going as far down that road with you, as I already have. If it was a contest of Egos....you are clearly the Winner.



We make judgements about how we want to conduct business every day. We make judgments about who we want to affiliate with, and who we want to encourage and support. There is nothing negative about me choosing to support those individuals who conduct business in the manner that I do. I've got no problem making that judgment. And I've done my fair share of supporting and sharing business, Jojo...and I did very much so with you, so I hope that was not directed toward me, personally.

I know that you have to stay on neutral territory with the business owners, Jojo, and can not take a stand in either direction, as you are promoting services to them. I don't. I can make a stand, and it can be a firm one. And I made it. There is nothing negative about having a firm opinion and taking a stand on it.

As for all the other Dialogue...all very good points, I'm going to go back over it all again....and I'm going to share it with my business friends who do not visit the forums. Great Education from both sides.

I wish .

I have to use http://taterunino.net/searchform.html to get the results and then tp around that way .

(There is a work-around for the scrolling which involves clicking a link, clicking Back, clicking on the bottom part of the scrollbar, clicking Forward, then clicking Back and the page will have scrolled but that is beyond infuriating).

(Edited to add that I get that bug on three puters that I've tried so I'm really curious how come only some people have it. I can't seem to *not* have it... *ponders*)

Don't worry about that. I never get ugly in threads unless someone gets ugly with me first and, so far, this thread is very good in that respect.

Btw, this isn't a contest of egos. It's purely matter of fact from me. I sell a hell of a lot of stuff so that one person's recommendations, either way, wouldn't make much difference to me. To be honest, I don't even think that a spot in LL's Showcase would make a noticeable difference.

Kitty, what scrolling problem are you having? I ask because I started having scrolling problems (using my mouse scroll wheel) in pretty much all of my user interface windows, just in the last three days or so. I try to scroll down, or use the scroll wheel to zoom the map or my camera, and it goes at Warp 10. I wrote a JIRA on it, thinking it was the RC viewer, but it's not...it happens with the main viewer too. And the JIRA comments indicate that other people are not seeing this problem.

Mickey...I dont make my decisions because i "have" to and i dont really peddle services to biz owners....most of what i do for them is for free just to help them and because I think when you find something that works you should share. I prefer to just keep things on the positive side in general in SL and in RL. For me it works well. You are of course welcome to have an opposing position and frankly i love hearing those and discussing them.

Where else but in SL can we talk to people all over the world about such things as whether the use of fake pixel people is ethical or not. LOL I am never one to shy away from a good discussion and welcome all sides to express themselves. However, I was just stating earlier how i choose to operate. With all the various backgrounds, cultures, biz models etc in the world...i learn every day from all of you and that is appreciated.

No matter what system they come up with, someone will figure a way to beat it. You computer types are such resourceful little scamps when you put your minds to it.

Just to be clear, are you saying that it returned results that matched the object you wanted, but simply didn't have the quality you want?

If so, then the only ways around that are mechanisms that rely on opinions, such as review sites or the approach you used, i.e., finding the creators of things you've seen and liked. Traffic and popularity aren't going to be useful.

I'm disappointed that people aren't making the distinction between ethical and permissible. There are lots of things that are allowed by LL's terms of service that are unethical. In some cases, they've eventually changed their position (banks and adfarms come to mind). In this case, they haven't - but I wouldn't conclude that means they think traffic bots are ethically acceptable. I'd expect that agree, more or less, with the arguments that banning traffic bots wouldn't be effective. I'd expect that they'd be non-committal if asked for a public opinion on the ethics of using traffic bots, though perhaps someone has explicit information to the contrary.

There are similar dichotomies in RL. Gasoline price gouging is only illegal in some jurisdictions, and has been prosecuted, but that doesn't make it ethical in places where's it's legal. Who knows whether any criminal charges will arise out of the banking scandal, but again, that's an issue of whether laws were broken, not whether banks acted responsibly or ethically.

So-called market puffery is legal, although it sometimes contradicts our intuitive notion of honesty. Here's an article on puffery and fraud, to serve as food for thought:

http://www.law.com/jsp/PubArticle.jsp?id=900005503815

Not necessarily. What creators buy is different from what consumers buy, yet consumers are probably the main users depending of Search (creators generally have their own networks and are more likely to be familiar with the strangeness of SL). Fundamentally, the people putting the $ in are the ones whose desires must be satisfied, or else no-one can cash out and the economy breaks down - no matter how much the people who get L$ from other sources, spend. So why not reward those who do so?



It's secrets based, and the Google algorithm isn't so effective for a world that needs to maintain innovation.

*nods*

If I'm looking for a bench, I'm definitely not looking for a 1 prim hollowed out rectangular box.

Similarly if I'm looking for a chandelier I'm not looking for a 2 prim picture of one... I could find that on Google and upload it for L$10.

I can't imagine anyone buying anything from half of those stores I visited, or if they do it has to be because they can't find anything better through search. It's not about "I don't like it so it must be low quality", it was just plain awful.

Popularity works fine as long as it's true popularity and not faked.

If someone is looking for couple poses Pillow Talk and Bits and Bobs would be two extremely popular places that are burried somewhere deep down. Maybe they'll have what that person wants, maybe they won't, but they're certainly two great general places to start which search doesn't reflect in any way.

Then it's not the All search that's no good, Kitty - it's your expectations that don't match what any search engine can do, but you know that already. Search engines cannot discern quality, and neither can any but the largest ones discern what you are likely to be looking for, and even then they can only do it by past experience of your personal searches and click-throughs. So it's not good saying that the All search is no good. The All search produces very good results.

By what standard?

And if you answer "relevancy" I'll poke you with a stick... repeatedly . Something's either relevant or it isn't. The fact that the new search can be directly influenced by the parcel owner makes "relevancy" irrelevant.

Well, these two cannot be simultaneously true. I'm not in-world now to try, but if both Pillow Talk and Bits and Bobs don't end up on the front page of Search All for "couples poses", then Search All is crap. It may be state-of-the-art crap, but seriously: if that's really the case, we'd be better off without any in-world Search function at all.

Relevancy. You said you searched for chandeliers and you found chandeliers. What's more relevant then that? Just because you personally didn't like the choices, doesn't make them bad results.

If they don't show in the first page, it's only because they haven't tried. The search is very good, but it does rely on people doing the right things with their parcels. If they don;t show on the first page, then they are bad for the search - the search isn't bad for them. But then again, why should they appear on the first page? There are many more than those 2 that sell couples animations (not poses, incidentally). What makes them so special? Quality? We know that no search engine evaluates quality - no web search engine, and no SL search system.

I think it depends on what type of item you're searching for, as to whether you can successfully use the All Search or not. I don't have success with it. I made an attempt to give it a chance today, based on the above comments....and it's been 2 hours - I've been to 3 dozen shopping centers and a few rinky dink stores with 5 or 6 tutorial 101 items, and I have NOTHING in my hands to show for it.

I'm with Kitty, that I need quality items, and I had relied on the Places traffic search to indicate popularity, and real foot traffic.....if they have that, I assume quality and not junk. But now, all those stores are 6 pages into the search, and now that I've figured out why.....it's useless.

I'm on page 7 of All Search, had typed in "Poses"...and Bits and Bobs and Pillow Talk have not shown up yet, unless I missed them. And they are the top 2 in my book. That's a Crime!

Kitty - until something better comes up, I would suggest finding some good blogs that give reviews, and getting familiar with some good stores and good creators. I use blog reviews to find new items and great creators. It takes some time to find, but you can see the item, and take in some comments. I'm not extremely organized at the minute, but one of these days, I will compile a good blog list.

Grab a notecard, and start plugging your landmarks into it, with a few blurbs underneath about what you found there, so you have a handy reference. I had started the notecard references for furniture and accessories, that had room setting pics inside, plus, the landmarks of where you can get each item, but now, I've got to go back and remove all the bot using stores, and the stores who don't want my referrals.....so that will be a project.

Another way to find specific items, and make a tad bit of a judgment on quality, is to go to SLexchange...they have a new name now, but that old address will get you there...type the item into the search, and start reviewing...plus, you can get their store location, and pay them a visit. Just because they have no reviews, does not mean the item is not good....I had just recently posted some things there, and it seems that everyone is coming to the store to look at them before buying, and they buy directly out of the store. I do the same thing when I use that tool - I find it there, without having to run all over the place, and narrow the selection down....then go to the 3 stores, rather than 3 dozen....because I want to see the item in person....and it saves a ton of time.

If you have some specific items you need, (furniture or decorating accessories - I'm not much of a clothes shopper)....send me an IM....and I can pull some store names off the top of my head for you....while I revamp all those notecards., and I'll work on that blog list.