Definition of Theft?

It was originally intended to be exactly that, but it hasn't been that for a very long time. Also, traffic only gave an indication of a place's positive popularity, but it was never an actual measure of it.

It's ok to call it "gaming the search", because that's what it is. However, only a search engine owners can say what is acceptable and what isn't (what is right and what is wrong for their engine), and this search engine owner knows all about the methods used to improve rankings, and accepts them. Also, they have stated specifically, more than once, that traffic bots are not against the ToS.

The listings can be sorted alphabetically, so there is already a different way to list them.

Very Simple.



More Complex.....but the robbing of accurate figures for business owners to use in perfecting their business and accessing sales figures per population increases and declines.

If you're scratching your head, because the population doubled, and your sales are down a tad, and you need to figure out what to do...thinking that the population doubled, and your sales went down....is not giving you a good starting point to start accessing the situation. Because that's wrong data. 400 stores simply added 20,000 more bots. (it has to be more)......That's the population increase, you are scratching your head over.

Jojo....when I was decorating homes, I don't think the All search was available or I missed it....for a year. I used the Places search, and that became habit. I typed in Furniture, Dining, Curtains, Plants.....whatever.

I started at the top of the list, because I assumed that was where the action was, based on popularity...meaning the best products, the best prices, the best service. I have a hunch the majority of people assume this.

I never came across your store, this way. I came across your store, by meeting you here. You were robbed of my business, during that time frame, that way. You have an Excellent Store and Excellent Real Traffic, by the way.....so that was a crime.

The Places search, seems much easier to use, than the All search, to me. Keep the Places search, so you can type in a brand name, and get there immediately. But no traffic count. Still based on key words and relevance, if you don't have a brand name to enter. Offering search criteria to this section, would be very useful.

On the All Search, base order on Product Titles Relevance and Quantity. If I were searching for a Lamp....and Joe has 100 lamps sitting in his Store, with the word Lamp in the title....he might pop up first. Good indication.

Now, let's say that Joe wants every person in SL to come buy lamps from him, and be number one on the list....so he tweaks that by setting up another 100 lamps in the store. His choice...if he wants to waste the prims he is paying for, totally on lamps. So, if you want to be the number one lamp seller, you put all your eggs in one basket, and go right ahead and set those 200 lamps out, and go for it, and you deserve it.

If you want to tweak your item titles, to start manipulating traffic, and start describing your green sofas, as a green sofa with lamp attached....Fine. You will be limited on this, by space, and trying to catch more traffic by describing your lamps as Hot Sexy Lamps is Fine. Probably stupid, but Fine. And everyone has the same amount of space in that Title to use, so it's a level field.

OK - so Joe has more of an edge....because he has a whole sim to use to set out more items, and thus more Titled items registering in that search. Not Fair? Well then get your ass in gear, and double your sales this week, so you can buy another piece of land, and set out more lamps. That's Fair.

As far as popularity based on good product and good service.....just forget it. That's all subjective anyway....figure that out for yourself, after a few purchases.

alphabetical sorting is nice if you alreayd know the name of the place, but for searching new places it woudl be nice if there were other measures that attempted to evaluate the popularity of places

I wonder how well a StumbleUpon like system would work with places in SL, somthing where people anonymouslly (at least for other residents so people couldn't know who voted for them, to reduce the odds of peopel getting paid to do vote positivelly without wanting to do that if it wasn't for the money) would give places positive or negative votes. probably jsut a single vote per account per parcel or somthing

Just to add fuel to the discussion:

But it is lying. Any time you mislead you are lying. Unfortunately, there aren't laws or rules or regulations that exist to prosecute the liars. And, unfortunately, in the realms of marketing and politics, misleading people seems to have become a "bread and butter" acceptable behavior.

As I see it, bots represent--in the context of this discussion--a form of lying.

I find it interesting that some shop owners regard the use of bots as search ranking inflaters as acceptable. When I discover such shops, I stop giving them business.

After all, if I can't trust 'em to tell the truth, am I smart to trust them any further?

My experience says no.

Considering the OP pointed out that there were 2 people shopping in the store that didn't use bots and no people shopping in the store that did you have to ask if this is really worth all the fuss it generates on this forum.

alphabetical sorting is nice if you alreayd know the name of the place, but for searching new places it woudl be nice if there were other measures that attempted to evaluate the popularity of places

I wonder how well a StumbleUpon like system would work with places in SL, somthing where people anonymouslly (at least for other residents so people couldn't know who voted for them, to reduce the odds of peopel getting paid to do vote positivelly without wanting to do that if it wasn't for the money) would give places positive or negative votes. probably jsut a single vote per account per parcel or somthing

The answer is no, but somehow the bot threads keep being fun. Maybe because it is the subject where ethics often goes further then common sense

@RemacuTetigisti: No it is not. The bots are visible through the green dots. So how on earth could the business owner using bots be lying?
Now I do wonder, I regard bot use acceptable, but do not use them. Will you give me business or not

@TigroSpottystripes: SL had a voting system, was gamed as well.

@Mickey: The last piece of your posting was a good one, it is exactly how Search All works.

But somehow I find it hard to grasp that you (and others) find Places Search harder then Search All. I mean, Search All has so many possibilities, and is more alike WWW Search engines then ever before. If you want an asian skirt, you find 0 results in Seach Places. typing "asian and skirt" in Search All, you find several good results on the first page. So how on earth can people complain about false info, about gamed search, when they can find what they want better then ever before? Really, I am not a stupid guy, but am I so smart that I am the only one capable of using Search All? That's quite ridiculous. So my advice to those that complain about search gaming in all these threads: learn how to use search (do not be afraid to ask questions about it, this is RA after all) and then come back and complain about how bad the results are.

Mickey, I understand your point but i do not consider myself robbed in any way by people who use bots. They are competitors who use every avenue to make a sale. But, even if someone finds them in search, there is no guarantee of a purchase just because someone lands at a store with bots. Just getting them in the door does not make them stay and look around or make a purchase.

To me, and i am the one who in your estimation SHOULD feel robbed...i dont at all and i think in SL people are free to promote themselves in any way they choose. Just because i dont choose to use bots or camping doesnt mean im angry or upset with those who do.

Personally I think lucky chairs are in the same category as camping since they encourage people to hang around in the store to inflate the traffic numbers. There are also camping chairs in many fashion stores where you sit for a period of time to get a prize...so do the people who dislike camping also dislike that form of camping chair? Again, in my mind...good for those shop keepers who have figured out a way to get people in their stores and to hang out. if we want to get technical, then having freebie hunts do the same thing to increase the numbers...the people hang around looking and looking for token items, but it has the same effect on traffic.

So, if i dont care and i am the competitor, then why should anyone....especially if that person is not losing one thing to the other shop keeper such as sales, traffic etc. I do agree that it is pretty easy to tell who uses bots or some other traffic inflator like camping, camping chairs, hunts and lucky chairs....their traffic numbers are really high.

I guess what im saying is if the person "robbed" does not file a complaint because they could care less...then was a "crime" commited. If i leave stuff out by the curb for the trash and someone comes along and takes it home...do i care? nope

just my two cents

is StumbleUpon gamed? I rarely get a comercial site, but I do get lots of sites I
find interesting...

No it isn't. The traffic numbers are genuine and true. There isn't anything anywhere to suggest that the traffic numbers indicate popularity - it's just traffic.

Jojo...I'm curious....why don't you use bots or camping? If that is part of promotion, and acceptable. You teach marketing and promotion. So why not use them?

I'm sorry you didn't miss my business during that time frame.....but maybe you missed the business of the 100 other people who searched for stores the same way I did. Or maybe it was 1000. Maybe it was 3000.

Do you give Linden Lab any money? Their user figures are inflated too.

The only time I really bother about traffic is when someone is selling me traffic, for example mall space. There are many other factors involved there too such as size of the parcel, what else is there, yadda yadda yadda.

That's not a problem to those store owners. They do ok without your business

We already saw that it isn't lying.

Your experience of SL must be limited

ya know, claiming that gaming traffic isnt in the TOS is a reason to do so doesnt make much sense to me. Afterall stupidity isnt against the TOS so should we strive to be stupid?

Actually, previously the list of the places with the most traffic was named "Popular Places".

There was a tab with that name until not long ago. But this is now, and there is nowhere that suggests that the Places listing are anything to do with popularity. It's just traffic - for whatever reason - avatar minutes on the parcel.

That kind of attitude about "my business" not being important will keep me from spending money at a store period. Regardless of what the issue is. I shop at the places who want my business and appreciate it.



Many have agreed that it is lying.



My experience in SL is quite extensive, and I wholeheartedly agree with .......

It's not a reason to do it - nobody said it is. The reason for it is quite different to that.

And you are more than welcome to shop where you want. Boycotting certain places will not affect them though. The only one it's likely to affect is you, but it's entirely your choice.

And many have agreed that it isn't. My view is that it isn't lying because the traffic numbers are true and accurate. If some people want to think they mean something that they don't mean, it's up to them.

There are a zillion prefab/furniture/accessory stores that I can choose from. The selection is huge. I will find what I need. So no effect to me, at all.

After sending a few notecards out to business owners, telling them that I would no longer be shopping in their store, and no longer be using their items for decorating jobs, and no longer have their name as a referral on the room setting notecards I send out, and no longer be using their pieces in the Idea Home which I advertise and promote, and no longer be reviewing their products on the product review page of the blog I send my group members to, and no longer be bringing their name up with interior decorators that I swap secrets with, and a few other things......well, I don't think one of them had a head in the sand argument for missing out on all those possibilities, which are totally free to them. Bots or no Bots....from my discussions with them....it seems they realized they had a bird in the hand. Several, if you run numbers on the possibilities above.

I do remember decorating one of the homes with quite a bit of your furniture and accessories, Phil. There were probably about 300 to 400 people who walked through the home, before it sold, with the Focus being on that Striking Purple Leather living room ensemble, that was to die for! (free plug x 400) If they didn't buy the home, I know they went shopping after that, because they were always sending me messages asking where I got certain pieces, and to tell them what stores to go to.

.....and quite a few favorable comments about how stunning it was (free plug times 20)....perhaps 2 people went to your store, and picked it up, along with a handful of other items (free plug times 2 times 10 other purchases)....perhaps I would take note of all the favorable comments, and use it again, and pick up a few other items, while at your store (free plug times 10 to 20).....perhaps all of the above occurred over and over again 10 times or 20 times or 30 times in shopping trips, in addition to another 300 to 400 through each home that had the set in it (free plugs multiplied by vast numbers). But you don't need that, as you said. Understood. I think there are a few other stores out there, who do need that, and want it, and appreciate it, so I won't sweat it.

I threw that plug in for you, just as good measure....enjoy. ohhh....and multiply the above plug times 4000. oh wait, don't......you said you didn't need that. And on that point, I will agree.

I get a terrific number of positive comments about my stuff, including from you, but as I said, the stores that run bots do perfectly ok without the people who prefer to boycot them. The boycotters are the only ones who are affected because they deny themselves things like "that Striking Purple Leather living room ensemble, that was to die for!" It's entirely their choice. The stores don't need the few people who vote on bots with their feet - at least I don't. And there's no way in the world that I'm going to turn away from attracting many people to my store for the sake of some word of mouth visitors. You're barking up the wrong tree with that argument

Forgive me! I have miscalculated!

There are 770 views to this thread. Judging from the number of views that Phil's last endless bot debate received.....please add 800 more Free Plugs.

Make that 801 view...

It's always been my opinion that traffic should be eliminated completely as a metric. Do it like in RL, advertise in the classified or elsewhere to be known. If this policy were to be inacted by LL, then the entire reason for having camping bots would be eliminated.

Of course, LL isn't going to do such a thing, as thier number of residents (with whom they flash to potential investors) would dwindle.

One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds.

Frank Zappa