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Definition of Theft?

Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-11-2008 06:57
From: Jojogirl Bailey
I stand by my assertion as well that using traffic numbers alone to determine where to have a store is a bad biz move....for anyone. I teach in my classes that folks should look at traffic, talk to other renters, talk to the landlord, check the map at several times a day over the course of several days, etc. so that they are informed consumers and do not get taken in by inflated traffic counts. It is just good biz practice and keeps from making costly mistakes.


It's quality of traffic not quantity that is important. People need to experience different setups to appreciate what is going on. I always check the map before renting a store now.
PennyWhistle Cameron
Velocity Girl
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 178
10-11-2008 07:02
And I repeat...A pox on Bots. A pox on those that use Bots. A pox on their establishments, and if I'm not real lucid right now, its because I'm fighting a Golden Retriever who likes to pretend like he's a timber wolf, and by fighting I mean pulling on a rope while he pulls the other way.

Phil, if I failed to answer questions put to me, it wasn't a deliberate oversight. I was posting on the run, and not really paying a whole helluva lot of attention to the thread. I had something to say, and said it.

I don't feel like I was wrong about anything. The store boasted 5K a day in traffic, if it gets 1 person it would be a freaking miracle.

I couldn't care less about the lost rent. Jesus H. 300L was half the rent, and thats what I paid....what? A buck fifty? Chicken feed...not even chicken feed...more like pennies in the bottom of my purse.

I resent the duplicity. I resent the disengenuous practices. I resent the time I wasted.
PennyWhistle Cameron
Velocity Girl
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 178
10-11-2008 07:10
There needs to be an overhaul on the search practices in general, in my obviously not remotely humble opinion and I don't know if a collective group of us from various walks of SL life could achieve this or not.

Here's an example of what I find annoying about how it is right now.

If you go to classifieds and you search the word "dog" an Animation store comes up first. A few weeks ago it was a large furnishing and prefab store because they ran a 50K ad. Now, he doesn't sell dogs, and I doubt that the animation store does either. Maybe they sell dog collars, or dog walks, or dog doors, or doggie style poseballs...but why are they appearing at the top of the search for dogs when they clearly don't specialize in dogs?

Now, we can all manipulate the search engine, but my point is we shouldn't have to manipulate it. The search should work for us, not against us.

I really am on my high horse today.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 07:11
In that case, I'll ask again. Would you like to post the SLURL to the mall? I'd like to see for myself what the score is.

It's perfectly ok to be dead against traffic bots, Penny - some people here share that view - but using the mall experience as evidence for it doesn't sound right so far, and I'd like to see for myself. I said in my first response to you that, if a mall uses the inflated traffic figure as a selling point, then I agree that it's lying, cheating and theft, but I'd like to see it.
_____________________
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http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 07:13
From: PennyWhistle Cameron
There needs to be an overhaul on the search practices in general, in my obviously not remotely humble opinion and I don't know if a collective group of us from various walks of SL life could achieve this or not.

Here's an example of what I find annoying about how it is right now.

If you go to classifieds and you search the word "dog" an Animation store comes up first. A few weeks ago it was a large furnishing and prefab store because they ran a 50K ad. Now, he doesn't sell dogs, and I doubt that the animation store does either. Maybe they sell dog collars, or dog walks, or dog doors, or doggie style poseballs...but why are they appearing at the top of the search for dogs when they clearly don't specialize in dogs?

Now, we can all manipulate the search engine, but my point is we shouldn't have to manipulate it. The search should work for us, not against us.

I really am on my high horse today.
Classifieds aren't classifieds - ads are not classified. If a place has the word in its text, it will be listed according to the amount paid. It's a crap system.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
10-11-2008 08:17
From: Phil Deakins
If a place has the word in its text, it will be listed
That's your very own definition of "relevant", so if the classifieds yield relevant results how can it be a "crap" sytem? :confused:

From: someone
according to the amount paid
You already argued in this very thread that the ordering of the results can't be used to prove anything.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
10-11-2008 08:33
From: Mickey Vandeverre
Dang! I just went to shop at another favorite store, and saw the dreaded clump of dots in the corner of the sim. The store was in the sky....the bots were ground level around a campfire. I messaged the people around the campfire, and it's been an hour, and no one has called me back....so I think it's safe to assume.....especially since their traffic count is 10,875 today....and I've never bumped into a soul, when I'm there.

Now, in this store, was one of those promotional signs about Content Theft...."stealing the clothes off our back" promotion.

How Hypocritical. Inflating your traffic figures with the use of non-people, implying to the general population that you are an amazing store, so that you have an astronomical edge in the search over your competitors....

So I thumb through half a dozen pages until I spot another favorite store with a traffic count of 72.....he has 2 people in his store, soon to be 3.......and the above store has Zero, so at this particular hour, Mr. 72 is more popular among shoppers. The majority of the general population is not going to know that, and find Mr. 72, and go to his store, using the Places search tool.

Theft.

And this is interesting.....when I look at the map....all those bots are gone, except one. Was it something I said? All I asked them was...."Are you Real? or are you a Bot?" So Sensitive! Maybe I can make them disappear by talking to them. :)



If you want to create a truly heated Bot thread you need to Have Bots in the title.

Just saying.

---------------------------------------------

Ill sum up this Bot thread and Every trafficbot thread ever.

Phil and Marcel wont see any issue with using Bots.

Some people will resist extremes either way.

And the rest will be Against the bots and incredulous at all the pro-bot Spin some posters will come up with.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
10-11-2008 08:36
Also big mistake to do a Bot thread where the Title is "Definition" of any word .. since that lets people who like to make excuses bog the whole thing down in semantics.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 08:36
From: Kitty Barnett
That's your very own definition of "relevant", so if the classifieds yield relevant results how can it be a "crap" sytem? :confused:
Don't be confused, Kitty. Read it again. It was about Classifieds, which I said are not classified ;)

From: Kitty Barnett
You already argued in this very thread that the ordering of the results can't be used to prove anything.
You need to provide a quote, because I donlt know what you're talking about.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 08:48
I've had a look at the mall, and it isn't exactly a mall even though the sim calls itself a mall. It's a town center with streets, and any walk-by shoppers walk through the streets, and not through a mall.

The bots are certainly there - 7 of them - giving the impression of being shop window manequins. But I can't really accept them as that because they stand in the windows, facing the street, but without any indications as to what they are wearing. I would expect shop window manequins to have signs about the outfits they have on. My opinion is that they are there for traffic purposes. Between them, they generate 10080 traffic points, and the 'mall', which is a whole sim, has less than 11,000 traffic points, so the whole sim gets little in the way of real shoppers, especially if the owners are there quite a bit.

None of the shops are on their own parcels, which is something else I wanted to know, so they can't be promoted in search individually and, as far as search is concerned, they have to rely on people that the owners manage to bring in, which brings us back to the Places tab and traffic.

I have to agree with Penny about it. It does look like the inflated traffic is intentional, and not just a consequence of using genuine models. Whether or not the intent is to attract shop renters is something that we can't know. Traffic isn't mentioned in the info provided when looking to rent a shop.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-11-2008 09:37
From: Phil Deakins
None of the shops are on their own parcels, which is something else I wanted to know, so they can't be promoted in search individually and, as far as search is concerned, they have to rely on people that the owners manage to bring in, which brings us back to the Places tab and traffic.


This is a situation I'm looking into myself, there are pros and cons. You get more parcels in search for the individual stores but your combined traffic nosedives, which affects search rankings. Not sure which is the best way forward.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 11:55
From: Ciaran Laval
This is a situation I'm looking into myself, there are pros and cons. You get more parcels in search for the individual stores but your combined traffic nosedives, which affects search rankings. Not sure which is the best way forward.
Perhaps a combination of the two would be the best way to run a mall. Shops on their own parcels, and the walkways all on one other oddly shaped parcel. That way, each shop could be promoted in search, including its products of course, and people are likely to wander the walkways too after arriving in a shop. If a mall owner wants to inflate the traffic numbers to bring shoppers to the mall, for the benefit of the shop renting customers, it could be done with the walkways parcel.

I'm not very familiar with malls, but if I were to open one, I think the least I could do is have each shop on its own parcel, so that the renter could promote it and its contents in search. And if I want to assist the renters, I would think in terms of bringing people to the other part(s) of the mall via search. I don't think that the 'mall' where Penny was (and her friend still is) is operated very well at all. It's a *very* nice build but that's the best I can say for it.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
PennyWhistle Cameron
Velocity Girl
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 178
10-11-2008 12:06
I would like to interject that I don't have a problem in any manner whatsoever about the use of models in stores. They are wonderful selling point in clothing, hair and skin stores because they give a much better idea of what something looks like than a flat one dimensional picture does.

In defense of my friend, she used to own and manage a mall. Her traffic, I believe was about 50 thousands visitors a month, and these were genuine shoppers. She didn't have campers or bots either one, so when she checked out numbers and saw 5K a day, she made an assumption, and yes we all know what happens when you assume, but the fact of the matter is she trusted the stats before her eyes and being a busy woman with over 200 rental units, she made her move.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-11-2008 12:16
From: PennyWhistle Cameron
I would like to interject that I don't have a problem in any manner whatsoever about the use of models in stores. They are wonderful selling point in clothing, hair and skin stores because they give a much better idea of what something looks like than a flat one dimensional picture does.


Considering you've made posts about theft, duplicity and cheating I'm amazed to see that you don't have a problem with artificially inflated traffic created by models, well you do because you laughed when someone told you they were a model.
TigroSpottystripes Katsu
Join date: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 556
10-11-2008 12:34
(edit:fixed a couple of ugly typos)
that sounds like the mall owner logged with the account normally used for the bot and send that message (or sent a msg thru the bot client)

doesn't make much sense for a real person to log and stay still, unless that was a model camp...

and shouldn't they be called mannequins(sp?) instead of models? I mean, unless they were real people doing stuff actively, it is just an human-ish shaped inanimate thing displaying stuff for a store (or the word mannequin is also used to reffer to living people?)
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 12:42
I have four models in my store. They are for people on their own to see and/or try the bed animations, which helps them to decide whether or not to buy a bed.

There's a couple that people can see perform the animations - the people operate the menu so they can see any anims they want to see. And there are two singles - a male and a female. People can use those to try the anims. All four get used quite a lot.

I've toyed with the idea of doing the same for the cuddle sofas, but I haven't got round to it. I do see individual people on the cuddles, trying to visualise what they are like with two people, so I ought to add the models.

One thing I don't do is offer to demo with girls, or I'll get a bad rep :) I do demo if asked, but I don't offer.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 12:43
From: TigroSpottystripes Katsu
that sounds like the mall owner logged with the account normally used for the bot and send that message (or sent a msg thru the bot client)

doesn't make much sense for a real person to log and stay still, unless that was a model camp...
I agree with that. The 'models' were obviously created for the purpose - no profile information.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Jojogirl Bailey
jojo's Folly owner
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,094
10-11-2008 14:18
Phil..sounds like if you converted your static bots into the same number of models in store that some in opposition to the bot practice would deem your use of them ok. I did not know you had models to use to try out couples poses. I dont believe i have seen anyone with a furniture biz use them in that way. I think that is a wonderful idea. I cant tell you the number of times i have tried hopping back and forth between animations trying to figure out what they would look like and just gave up, purchasing nothing. It is esp difficult in the animations where one will not move until the other one jumps on, like many of the dances, etc.

It is definitely interesting to me that having the non-user avs (or bots) go from doing nothing to wearing clothing etc as models makes them go from horrible and theft to perfectly fine. Esp since it would increase the traffic count in exactly the same way and make your position in search exactly the same as well. Good to know...
_____________________
Director of Marketing - Etopia Island Corporation
Marketing and Business Consultant
Jojo's Folly - Owner
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
10-11-2008 14:37
From: Jojogirl Bailey
Phil..sounds like if you converted your static bots into the same number of models in store that some in opposition to the bot practice would deem your use of them ok. I did not know you had models to use to try out couples poses. I dont believe i have seen anyone with a furniture biz use them in that way. I think that is a wonderful idea. I cant tell you the number of times i have tried hopping back and forth between animations trying to figure out what they would look like and just gave up, purchasing nothing. It is esp difficult in the animations where one will not move until the other one jumps on, like many of the dances, etc.

It is definitely interesting to me that having the non-user avs (or bots) go from doing nothing to wearing clothing etc as models makes them go from horrible and theft to perfectly fine. Esp since it would increase the traffic count in exactly the same way and make your position in search exactly the same as well. Good to know...
I did convert some of the traffic bots for use as demo models. I haven't heard of any other place doing it, so I think they are probably unique in SL - so far. They certainly get used by shoppers, so they are a worthwhile facility to have. The reason I haven't yet organised models for the cuddle sofas is space. I have a lot of spare space, and I often push walls back to fit new things in, but the seating dept. is a bit cramped and I can't push its walls back. I'll work something out sooner or later.

Incidentally, they do wear clothes, but very little. They are for demoing sex after all :) They are in cubicles, behind a wall, so they are not in plain sight. If/when I add some cuddles models, they'll be fully dressed of course.

I know that anti-bots here are generally fine with a few genuine models and such, but I disagree with them about how many. For instance, I see no reason why it's ok to demo 3 or 4 dresses but not 8 or 9 or more dresses. Modelling dresses is very useful for customers.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
TigroSpottystripes Katsu
Join date: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 556
10-11-2008 14:41
ideally those "models" would be on their own parcels, though in a way, somewhat similar to non-rigged camping, it is better than just cramming bots in a skybox or hole in the ground, at least it adds value to the store by providing some welcome functionality to the customers instead of just messing up the validity of the popularity ranking system
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-11-2008 14:52
From: TigroSpottystripes Katsu
ideally those "models" would be on their own parcels, though in a way, somewhat similar to non-rigged camping, it is better than just cramming bots in a skybox or hole in the ground, at least it adds value to the store by providing some welcome functionality to the customers instead of just messing up the validity of the popularity ranking system


What popularity ranking system? There are umpteen reasons why one parcel gets more traffic than another and popularity is often not the reason.

It affects traffic in the same way as campers and bots do. There are no two ways about this, so do store assistants, so does the store owner having their workshop above the parcel.

People need to stop treating traffic as a popularity rating, it's balderdash.
PennyWhistle Cameron
Velocity Girl
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 178
10-11-2008 16:35
I was talking about legitimate models, Ciaran. Surely someone as bright as you obviously are knows the difference. If I walk into a store, and there are 3 models there, wearing three different skins, outfits, hair styles, shoes, etc. They are models. If there are 15 "models" lined up in a straight line across an entire sim, are you telling me you think they are legitimate models? Kudos to the various store owners to get them all aligned like that, or maybe you're saying its purely a coinkydink?

And I believe the person I laughed at was created merely as a numbers elevator. She/he made one response to me:

"I'm not a bot, I'm a model"

And then was gone and was "AFK" the rest of the night. Yeah, sure thats a REAL person. A legitimate model. Ummm hmmm.
PennyWhistle Cameron
Velocity Girl
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 178
10-11-2008 16:41
Let me just say, at my store, there are no models, bots or campers. I have one store assistant and she's a valid assistant paid out of my own profits each week and meant to assist people, give demos, show people where things are and answer any questions shoppers might have. She doesn't stay at the sim all the time. She has prescribed hours and certain days to work, and if its slow, she watches the map and if dots appear, she goes to see if they need help. My own workshop is in a galaxy far, far away. I wouldn't and couldn't work down there. Its too disruptive.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-11-2008 16:43
Penny, look, I think traffic as a metric is a pile of horseshit. How does anyone who has been here more than a few months see traffic as important when it's not our own parcel? Traffic as a metric would be useful to me as a parcel owner because I know how I'm generating it, but to anyone else it simply isn't useful.

I'm all for traffic being only for the parcel owner's eyes and it being removed as a ranking factor.

Traffic generated by well meaning usage still distorts the traffic metric, just eliminate it as an issue in ranking and then it again becomes useful.
Jojogirl Bailey
jojo's Folly owner
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,094
10-11-2008 17:04
I agree that if we eliminate the element of traffic as a metric then all is well. However...traffic in no way = sales. High traffic could = low sales, and low traffic can very well = high sales.
_____________________
Director of Marketing - Etopia Island Corporation
Marketing and Business Consultant
Jojo's Folly - Owner
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