Definition of Theft?

Malls and traffic bots
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I started thinking about it after Penny's post. When I started my store, before I ever heard of traffic bots, I rented in a mall for a very brief period. It's the only time I've ever had a satellite store. I'd learned a little about traffic at the time, and I saw that the mall's traffic was quite good. I also saw camping and such but I hadn't put the two together by then.

I'd been in SL almost a year, and I had a skybox rentals business for most of that time, so I wasn't a noob, but I was still taken in by the traffic number. It's not just noobs who would fall for it.

I'm going to think a bot about malls and traffic bots.

Yes, but are they actually models? There's a big difference.

There is no difference between someone renting a space falling for it, or someone going to purchase an item falling for it - SAME CONCEPT.

Wrong again, Mickey. If someone rents a space based on traffic, then there should be real people traffic, but if someone buys something after arriving at a place through traffic, they buy because they like it enough to buy. Nobody "falls for it" when they buy something they like. It's completely different.

ROFLMAO

It does sound like the bots at the mall where Penny was are actually models, which are usually bots anyway, but perfectly acceptable ones all round. What I'm curious about is whether or not the land was set to show in search, whether or not the mall space has it's own parcel of land that could be promoted, and whether or not Penny's products were set to show in search - stuff like that.

I don't think a mall owner can be criticised because there are models in another store in the mall, especially if the traffic number isn't mentioned as a selling point. It doesn't sound like a "charlatan" operation from what we've heard so far. Would you like to post the SLURL to the place, Penny? It's not against the forum rules.

Absolute balderdash. If I go and buy a product the deal is done, I go away. If I rent space based on artifically inflated figures because I believe those figures are accurate (and personally I always check but that's a different point) then I'm stuck with that charade.

A couple of points....relying on traffic to determine where to have a store is a bad way to operate. If sales were dependent on walk by traffic, then every single store like mine on its own land would fail. A store or location fails because there is no effective promotion of that location, not due to incidental traffic in the area. Any sale from folks who walk by should always be considered a bonus, but NOT the main way to make sales.

As for coughing about Phil's sales figures....is it not possible that someone selling items in SL can be making significant amounts of RL money? Not sure why that number if questioned. Im quite sure that that are several SL biz's that make that kind of money...and tbh, what would be the point of lying about it.

Inflated traffic numbers to get folks to rent and increased traffic to move ahead in search listings to me are completely different. When it comes to renting, the money is paid up front...with the search listing boost all it does is make more people see the info. It does not force someone to visit the site nor does it force someone to pay money based on those traffic numbers since they can always choose whether to visit and whether to buy or not.

And since we only have one side of the story about the location that calls their bots models....I will not pass judgement and make blanket pronouncements since there are ALWAYS two sides to every story. Some bots are used for automated group invitations, for models, for all kinds of automated functions....that does NOT mean they are there simply to increase traffic numbers.

And a question for the readers. Do you find a store that uses at least 25 camping spots that are clearly filled with avs who are not present to be different than inflating traffic using a box of bots or is that to be considered "theft" as well? I am guessing that more than one store owner is using their own alts to sit in those camping spots 24/7 so they are only paying the camping fees to themselves. Just interested to know if the same venom and boycotting is directed to stores with high quality items who boost their traffic numbers with this type of camping since I have not seen this addressed.

The reason I ask is that I think it is a slippery slope to start boycotting one type of traffic inflation and not others such as camping, lucky chairs, camping chairswhere you have to sit for a period of time to get the clothing or other item, etc. In my mind if you hate inflating traffic using one method then you would hate it using all the others. Just wondering...

Did I ever tell you that you're sexy when you get all business like!

yes LOL

Jojo is sexy whether or not she's all businesslike.

Malls with clubs, larger parcels, yadda yadda yadda. There are many ways to skin a cat, or something like that. Yes indeed, it's not so much a slippery slope as not looking at the whole picture.

People use many methods to attract customers, some people are more skilled at naming their items, however the bottom line is that if your product is rubbish, it won't sell well. Everything else is a mish mash of luck and good sales skills. You must be able to sell your wares here.

She'll slap me if I comment any further, so I'll behave for once!

Penny's silence indicates (to me) that she just came to let off steam because she'd make a mistake - an oversight. It's very easy to do if you;re not on the lookout.

I wasn't going to comment of her *coughbullshitcough* about my sales fisgures, but I believe that quite a few (couple of hundred maybe) make at least that sort of money from SL. I can actually show it. Anyone got a webcam set up?

campbots are jsut as bad, but camping chairs used by regular people are slightly better in my opinion for the reasons I've already mentioned in a previous post thought still less than ideal

Thanks boys LOL....phil...you are doing web cam now?????????????? whoaaaaaaaa
heheheheheh

Not at this particular moment in time, but I do have my moments, yes

Jojo, I'm not asking you to agree, disagree, approve or disapprove, sanction or excoriate my post or remarks. I stand by my comments. I stand by my opinions. I still maintain its disengenuous to use bots to elevate traffic.

I am well aware its possible to make a great deal of Lindens per month. I'm not exactly new to the Second Life retail scene myself, and I have a thriving and successful business. Furthermore, I tend to cater to my customers, offer all sorts of special items, perks, and customization to make them happy. I think I can count on 1 hand the amount of people in Second Life who were unhappy about one of my products and I was unable to make it right for them, and even then they received a full refund.

I really don't need you telling me or my associate what is good or bad business. I think we are both savvy enough to know what is good business. Her problem was she trusted the numbers right before her eyes and she, who ran a successful mall for several years, knows about traffic. It was only upon looking at the map, and the bots all lined up in a row that it because crystal clear. And to them being models, I say bullshit.

But apart from all that, I'm sure you're adorably sexy.

And Phil, Penny's silence was because she was off to do a little Real Life on Friday night.

I will be frank, I don't spend a LOT of time in Discussions. Usually, I am in Second Life building, texturing, animating, dealing with customer service issues, making exhibits, or outside the game researching a new project. I don't sit here hinged on every post champing at the bit and salivating to make my next post.

Quite frankly, Phil, I do think you're padding your figures, but in as much as I think you're full of bull, I can't prove it so I never accuse what I can't prove. But then if it makes you feel better about yourself to try and impress a boatload of strangers, have at it. Most people who make that sort of money don't go around bragging about it. You'd never see some of the real Second Life moguls in here day after day, hour after hour, post after post trying to impress the rest of the forum.

I didn't make a mistake. The mall is a duplicitous, disengenuous clip joint and anyone thinking differently is just as cheating and lying as they are.

Now, I'm sure you'll be here in seconds to address every remark I made, and if I can I'll be back to counter post, but if I get into something else, you might have to wait til tomorrow.

I stand by my assertion as well that using traffic numbers alone to determine where to have a store is a bad biz move....for anyone. I teach in my classes that folks should look at traffic, talk to other renters, talk to the landlord, check the map at several times a day over the course of several days, etc. so that they are informed consumers and do not get taken in by inflated traffic counts. It is just good biz practice and keeps from making costly mistakes.

On the flip side tho, traffic numbers do not equal sales. So if the place looks good, gives the store owner what they are looking for at a price that suits them...the traffic needed to make sales is in their hands anyway....based on how they choose to promote themselves.

I too offer my opinions here to all who choose to read them...take them as they are given...as my input...no need for anyone on the forums to get snippy.

Is it me, or does it seem like more folks lately are taking the comments here as personal attacks rather than opinions offered to all??? and then responding with personal attacks.

I have learned so much by the awesome debates in this forum that expose ALL points of view. I welcome differing opinions and respect those who offer them. It is a wonderful way to learn, to test my own beliefs, to understand another person's perspective. If it makes folks uncomfortable to share their opinions and then hear that someone disagrees, I always feel that is truly unfortunate. Thanks to all who choose to share and offer constructive input and lively debate. I for one ALWAYS appreciate it.

No it is not you, a lot of people seem to lack the ability to discuss, and see everyone disagreeing with them as attackers. Several good examples in this thread only.

The reason I keep appearing in these threads, is because I do like a good argument, but to be honest I have considered several times to leave RA and its bullshit. There are only a few people here I can respect in a discussion, whether they agree with my opinion or not. The rest is just trying to be right no matter what, and simply skip every argument that does not fit their viewpoint. When I first came to this forum, it was way friendlier. And it seems that especially threads about bots bring out the worst. If it were not so amusing at times, I would long have left here.

These factors have been contributing to flame wars for years, probably since the start of online discussions on Usenet and elsewhere. There's even academic research on the subject.

It's difficult to change people, but we can encourage folks to be aware of when they're arguing for the sake of arguing (no matter how justified their position may be), or when they're fueling a discussion that isn't likely to change anyone's mind. Or when they're just trying to have the last word.

The only time I've seen online discussions avoid this is when they have good, effective moderation. Thus the real problem here isn't that the participants are only human, but that the moderation, when it exists at all, isn't very effective.

To me, any form of artificially inflating traffic is dishonest.
I don't see a whole lot of difference (in honesty terms) between running a box of bots and running camping pads.
Some claim that their camping pads are helping others. So? Just give people the money/goods then. Why demand that they hang around as a condition?

Whatever some might say about traffic not being a measure of popularity, it remains that if it were not manipulated by the unscrupulous, then traffic would be a good indicator of where 'live' avatars spent their time.
The same applies to inbound links from Picks.

The natural assumption for the unaware is that traffic is a valid indicator. The natural assumption for the unaware is that search ranking is an indicator of relevance. That natural assumption is what is being targeted by the dishonest.


On the question of bots used as models in stores:
If a store owner was uncomfortable with the thought that their models were having an undeserved effect on search ranking of the parcel, they could place those models in 16m sub-parcels. That would save them a lot of hand-wringing.

Here's the latest, and then I will go back and skim some responses and read others close enough to pose a retort.

As I mentioned, when I was over at the mall snatching up my items, the mall manager came by (I guess when she saw a live body she hastened over to see what one looked like) and we had a little exchange. Mostly of me telling her just exactly what I thought of her deceitful practices and her standing there like an idiot listening. Then I logged out a bit later to watch a few episodes of Season Two of Brotherhood. While I was immersed in Providence RI criminal activity, one of the models IM'd me.

I get the message "I'm not a bot, I'm a model."

Yeaaaaah, oooookay.....riiiiiight.

So, I do her the courtesy of responding with a snarky, "I really don't care what you are."

And receive this in response, "AFK"

Upon which time I laughed til I choked.

I stand by my assertion that people who use the word "biz" don't know jack about it.

I didn't post on this thread for affirmation. I didn't post to be patted on the head and told that it was okay to think what I think about the use of bots to elevate numbers. I didn't post to be told what were good business practices and what were poor ones. I had something to say, I said it. Plain and simple.

When I don't have anything else to say, I will quit posting. It's really as simple as that.

As for personal attacks. Give. Me. A. Freaking. Break.

Of course they are personal attacks, and if people can't handle them, maybe they should postulate elsewhere. I didn't ask for opinions on the use of bots. I stated my opinion. I have strong opinions. If the ones using bots want to be told its all fine and dandy they aren't getting them from me. If they want to continue to rationalize that they are playing fair and by the rules that the honorable vendors employ, they are delusional.

I read enough of this thread to see the personal attacks, Marcel. It was enough to put me on the immediate defensive, where I shall remain regardless of whether you like the tone or not.

Penny.

From what you've said so far, the error was yours. You've been in business long enough to know about traffic, about bots, about models, about other avs being on a parcel for different reasons, etc. etc. You didn't check and you only have yourself to blame. Avs cannot be hidden. You could have checked, but you didn't.

From what you told us, the 'bots' are perfectly ordinary models - something which, to the best of my knowledge, nobody here has ever expressed an opinion against. You haven't even told us how many there are. You haven't told us if the mall owner specifically used traffic as a selling point, or even where the place is - you seem reluctant to tell us where it is, even though it's not against the forum rules.

There is a lot you haven't told us even though it's been mentioned and asked for. All you've told us is that you wasted a month's rent because you failed to check. I'm sorry that it happened, but you are better for it. If it comes up again, you'll do far more checking than just looking at a number.

To be perfectly honest, your posts sound like you're letting off steam because the waste of your money and effort just has to be someone else's fault, and not your own. Maybe when you've calmed down a lot, you'll realise that you should have checked it out for yourself, and that models are perfectly good.

Concerning my sales. There are people in this forum who make more than I do, and I don't brag about what I make - ever. Once in a while, I consider it worth mentioning; e.g. when a person comes along and tries to make out how beneficial s/he can be to my business. Eventually, it's useful to mention it. In this thread it came well after the numbers presented by the other person. However, you are free to think I inflate my sales figures if you like. It doesn't change anything.