Help we were swindled

Do think the OP is a big business? The OP is just like me with an ambition to try something out. "Play" big business...........or something. They payed someone to buy something and got swindled. Yeah a big business would not go to a private party to buy a sim.......the would go to LL. But if I wanted to try my hand at it I might look to a private party. And I don't have lawyers on retainer or someone with a legal mind to advise me. That's where LL needs to protect its users. If you can flippantly toss this to "it's an learning experience" then you miss the whole point of the OP's plea.

I'm done with you................thanks.

What you're missing is that Linden Lab is not a bank. They're simply a service provider. It's just like selling a website that you run through a hosting service. Somewhere there's a server (or at least a part of a server) with your site sitting on it, and a billing database with your name on it. If you sell the site, you tell the host to change the billing to the new owner. Before they can do that, they need the new owner's okay to be billed. Once they've got that, done deal. The money that changed hands for the sale of the site itself is none of their concern, nor should it be.

With an SL sim, it's the same thing. Somewhere there's a server sitting somewhere with your sim on it... I think you get the rest.

To me, LL's role is the easy part to understand. The hard part to grasp is why on Earth Gregg or anyone else would EVER enter into transaction involving that kind of money without a written contract, and confirmation of RL identity. That's just common sense. Basically, he fell for the old Florida swampland telemarketing scam. "Give me your money over the phone now, Mr. Jones. That land is beautiful. I was just there last week; I swear. It's paradise, really. I can't hold it if you don't pay now, so gimme all your banking and credit card info now!" Needless to say the land does not exist. Or, ever see "Boiler Room"? Same thing.

Now, Gregg, there may be a way out of this. How did you pay? If it was through Paypal, then you can probably get your money back. They have a track record of siding with the buyer when it comes to virtual purchases (which is how GOM got screwed a few times back in the day if I remember correctly, but that's a different story). If you used a check, you might be okay too, depending on the rules of your bank.

If you didn't use some form of payment that comes with any protection, then your recourse is to sue. You or your lawyer can subpoena Linden Lab for the RL identity of the seller. If the two of you are in the US, you definitely have a case. If you're both in some other country, you would know how it works there better than I, obviously. If you're in different countries from each other, then you may be out of luck, since even if you won the suit, enforcing collection might be impossible.

Good luck with this. As someone else already said, let the experience be a lesson at the very least. NEVER EVER EVER enter into a transaction for a substantial amount of money without a contract, no matter what. Not with family, not with your best friend, and certainly not with some stranger on the other side of the internet.

And because Linden Labs is selling Second Life as a safe platform for 'exploring your ambitions' whether they be real or virtual then they owe the "explorers" some safeguards besides just "be careful out there.......there are crooks in the world". Any substansial transfer for funds through SL should be flagged and held for review before any finalization of the transfer is done. And just for the reason you stated......the users are almost helpless against fraud. LL needs to step up and at least put one more barrier up against such actions.

We all know how the internet is..........and LL implies they are better. In fact they tell us they want to be the next generation WWW. They are off to a poor start without a very basic attempt at curbing the biggest problem on the internet...........fraud.

Size doesn't matter. Every business owner runs a risk and should know what they are doing! Big or small, it still hurts when you screw up and lose a large percentage of your resources. I rent apartments. I make good judgments, I make bad judgments. The bad ones always hurt, but hey... that's life. It's not about having a lawyer, and most people here don't need one for these types of transactions.

I'm not criticizing the decision to go to a private party to obtain the island. I am criticizing the apparent failure to use common sense and find out how to transfer island ownership. No way should anyone give up thousands of dollars to someone else and not have LL involved to start the process. I happen to have faith that if in the middle of the process after the buyer parts with their money that they would have a means to obtain transfer of the land in the event of seller misconduct if LL is already aware of the deal and the formal process had already begun.

I haven't missed the point of the OP's plea. I have said again and again that he may have RL avenues but as far as the game goes, I believe that Linden should not be involved in resolving disputes that don't involve the TOS. That's just a difference in values, my libertarian bent is showing. The OP said that there was some alleged "violation of the terms of sale" - I wonder what convoluted agreement was entered into, that there could be any such claim? You're selling? I'm buying. I pay. What the hell else? Sounds like a bad deal all around, and it's not LL's fault!

Where do they say it's "safe" - there is no guarantee that you will make money here! In fact, they say:

http://secondlife.com/knowledgebase/article.php?id=054

Where does this sound like the nanny state guaranteeing that LL will save us from our own stupidity? Risk has rewards, but it also has consequences of failure. And failing to understand the risks sabotages a person's ability and will go far in preventing success.

I'm not discouraging small business owners from doing business. I am discouraging them from being stupid with their money.

When the seller e-mails LL, have them also CC the buyer. Same goes with the buyer CCing the seller. You could also ask LL if they have received an e-mail form the seller in regards to the sale.

All that can be done at this point is to e-mail the sell, Cyn Linden, and support. I have a feeling that you won't get very far with any law enforcement. Anyways, it sounds like you want a civil suit as instead of a criminal.

Some day, hopefully, we'll have a built-in escrow system.

The thing that actually surprises me most about this is that there isn't actually an in-world system for making this kind of payment. Linden dollars can be used to securely buy anything in-world. Except entire private islands. It seems like a rather curious omission, and I expect could easily be integrated securely into the overall land trading systems.

Sadly it already is and has been such a place for quite some time. Don't trust anyone and never take anyone at their word. For your own safety's sake, presume that everyone you meet in SL is a liar, cheat, theif, fraud and outright criminal until they prove otherwise to your satisfaction. And if someone starts giving you the old 'you gotta trust me' jive, just walk away and mute them.

What exactly were these terms? Was it a themed area, or possibly non-commercial?

reading between the lines yes this person has been ripped off,but saying that its not ll fault you ave been turned over.im new to this so dont know the ins and outs of it all.but saying that i wouldnt buy from anybody in sl without doing alot of reading in the forums and asking alot of questions.
i mean you wouldnt go in a pub where some stranger walks up to you and says u wanna buy some land? then hand over money would u? think they done that in spain and caught a few people out.
this is sold like real life,so like in real life theres crooks sorry to say.your only course is to chase them through the courts im afraid.which i would think is hard to do, specally if all your dealings with them has been on here. they can disapear like smoke.
ll have covered themselves by putting up rules or what ever else you want to call them,so if you didnt read them it ant their fault,is it? its like not reading the small print on a contract and then saying "oh but i didnt know" cos i didnt read the small print. sorry i understand why your angry but ll wont help you me thinks. ive been here 3 days or so and all ive done is reading so far and set up my avatar in world just to see wot it looks like.lol and i still have so much more reading to do! so to close this post. research, research, research and then more research before you do anything. peace.

As it happens, I have here the title deeds to Brooklyn Bridge. As I'm a very bad businesswoman and a touch eccentric, and I like your face, I'll sell you the bridge for the very modest sum of $5000 - think of the profit you could make!

Interested?

Sorry - I don't mean to make light of what was undoubtedly an unpleasant experience - but the comparison is not unapt.

didnt the yanks buy london bridge thinking it was tower bridge? *cough* *cough*

When you have that much real money changing hands, it's a real life business deal, and should be treated as such. The buying party has every obligation to perform his/her own due dilligence. It is not Linden Lab's responsibility to come to the rescue if that hasn't occurred. The options at this point are either to pursue it via the First Life legal system, or just walk away, lesson learned.

It would be nice if they could get some help from LL, and maybe they will, but there is no obligation on Linden Lab's part to mediate.

Second life has often been compared to the old Wild West due it its lack of a government
in the style we are accustomed to in our first lives.

Welcome to the modern Wild West. On the bright side it was not uncommon in the real
Wild West for people to be shot by those that stole their land.

It is no surprise to me that we are left to our own devices in terms of money deals between us here in SL.
As Administration is one of the most costly and time consuming of all business expenses.

It would be nice if there were a built in escrow system, although I can easily imagine there would be those that would rail against the constraints of any such system put in place by LL.

In first life there are ubiquitous businesses and agencies dedicated to helping the chronically uninformed which btw I count myself as one in various aspects.
It is simply impossible to know everything about everything.

That being said I am surprised that there are no for profit Escrow Agencies already in
existence within SL.

Stories like this one appear to scream "Market Opening!" for them. But then of course
you will need to research the Escrow Company for it's integrity.

Sincerely good luck with your case.

If what is said is true I have every sympathy with the potential purchaser. There have been a few other occasions when a private island sim comes on the market being sold as a complete sim. In one case the transaction went through okay, but there have been others that did not.

I suggest you loudly complain, and if you purchased your Lindens via Pay Pall or credit card I would notify them asap.

Linden Labs need to design a way to enable complete sim transfer on private island sales that is robust and fraud free, in my honest opinion that does not exist at present.

I suggest you write a letter (and email) Linden Labs chairman. The chairman’s name is Mitch Kapor of Kapor Enterprises ltd. Other directors include Jed Smith, Bill Gurley, Mitch Lasky and James Currier.

Linden Labs telephone number (main line) is (415) 243 9000 a USA number, and the fax is (415) 243 9045

http://lindenlab.com/contact is the web page with all the contact details

http://lindenlab.com/management is the link to management.

If it were me I would be on the phone and fax tomorrow (Monday) as well as sending letters by recorded post to the chairman and every named director at the addresses of their main business (other than Linden Labs)

I can be very very persistent on the phone and I suggest you do the same if the Linden employees will not help you

Again sorry for your trouble, and finally I have mentioned this issue in the closed Linden answers forum on several occasions in the past.

Hope this helps

Regards

John

Considering your complete lack of understanding of the basic guidelines of doing serious business in SL (or RL), you are completely right in your avoidance of advanced financial transactions.

Linden Labs has no responsibility for the naive blunders committed by someone who doesn't perform due diligence in researching a business proposal. I can't imagine spending that kind of US$ without being very clear about what I was doing, and asking a ton of questions of other residents.

The problem is that LL doesn't know who is right. They're not set up to prove who is right.

Say someone owns a sim and wants to let me live there for $20 in paypal. We talk and our "roommate" situation goes badly. I thought I was getting half a sim. He was thinking I could put a house on the corner. I want my money back. I want Linden to transfer 1/2 the sim to me. Etc. Maybe I've been living there for six months and now he wants to retheme the whole sim and asks me to move. I want my money back, not just for next month, but forever. I want to stop him from retheming it and keep my parcel for myself.

Think about your own real world bad college roommate situations. No those aren't my phone calls. My room is smaller so I should pay less rent. The heat is too high. The heat is too low. The heat is too high and I don't want to pay for it. Etc. Etc.

That's what Linden doesn't want to get involved in.

Say they do start to get involved and will make sure that deals go well. Say you need money for your tier fees. Someone tells you "hey, I cashed in on a dot.com IPO in the 90s, I'm retired and rich. I love your sim, I visit there all the time. I'll paypal you 300 bucks to pay your tier for next month." They do it. You're thinking, wow, what a great person! And then a week later you get an account suspended message. You call Linden and find out you've been charged with fraud for not transferring the sim, so they've banned you and transferred the sim to this "nice guy." After all, the "buyer" has a paypal receipt! That's what Linden is afraid of happening.

And people are PETTY. They will argue, kvetch to the company, and threaten lawsuits over really tiny amounts. You will get people who clog the system complaining because their L$100 prim skirt doesn't fit right and look like the picture. (How many of these have we all bought?)

If you spent US$1000+ on a sim, you have rights, but those rights are in the real world courts and not with Linden. Chances are they do not live in the same state as you do. That means this would be interstate wire fraud. You have civil and criminal means to go after them. Since money was transferred, it can be traced. If you paypal'd it, you may have recourse through them--paypal has never been big about virtual transactions. If it's a credit card transfer, you can dispute.

The problem, at least for real estate, is the tier fee as well at the integrity. If the escrow company takes temporary ownership of a parcel, they're the ones who owe the tier fee to Linden. So to make it work, they'd have to first collect the tier fee from the seller before taking possession. This starts to drive up the escrow costs prohibitively. Then what if the deal falls through? They have to go to the trouble of selling the land (to avoid the tier fee for the next month). The sale will most likely cover another month of fees, but will it cover the person's RL time for that? And suppose both buyer and seller say "just give me a few more days". That puts the escrow agent in a difficult spot, not wanting to foreclose on innocent customers, which means neither one of them could get the land back, but also not wanting to be taken by unscrupulous folk scamming the escrow agent.

This doesn't mean it can't be done, but I think it would take a long time to be big enough to be profitable, and even then, it wouldn't be a particularly high income. If someone is honest enough to be an escrow agent, then they're honest enough to just develop private islands, and make a lot more money.

I'm sorry to hear about your predicament, Gregg. But it is your responsibility to know the risks of any financial undertaking in Second Life, as well as the procedure required for the transfer of island ownership. Yes, this is a lot of money we're talking about. And when there's a lot of money at stake, you better do your due diligence. Saying LL's responsible for policing these private deals is like saying Netscape/Microsoft/Mozilla should police all financial transactions that take place using their software. Yes, there are safeguards that should be created for these private transactions in Second Life - but until this happens, you need to do your due diligence and know the risks you're facing. Again, sorry for your loss, Gregg.

This is a sad story and indeed a learning experience. I agree that the buyer should have done more investigating before purchasing, but what should be done about it? Legally, what can be done about it? The Second Life procedures were not followed correctly for this type of virtual transaction. Since the buying of the sim was not professionally handled, the party that Gregg tried to buy the land from was the legal owner of the sim the entire time correct? Did Gregg ever pay any of the tier? In effect, Gregg was just given land rights to the sim without actually owning it. What can Linden Labs do to help this person? Do they keep records of personal transaction histories? Can they examine stored IMs and conversations on a sim? Can the party in question explain why they were paid thousands of dollars? Can they prove that Gregg violated the terms of sale?

Should Linden Labs go through the trouble of investigating this matter? It may be worthwhile to contact a lawyer if thousands of dollars were truly lost. Surely the terms of service protects Linden Labs from being legally responsible for assets that are lost or deleted by the company, but does that include theft or fraud from other users? Can Linden Labs be held responsible because of negligence? Why is a system not in place that demands all ownership title changes to be reviewed by Linden Lab employees? Are the rules and regulations regarding land purchases posted clearly for people to find them? Linden Labs would be the big fish in this picture.

While I am all for Second Life this kind of fraudulent activity disturbs me. I have only been with Second Life for a few months and have witnessed casino scams, copybot dramatics, money laundering, password scams, the database containing all of our passwords being purged, first land scams, and now this. I hope there is an employee team out there dedicated to the security of Second Life. Also, I would love to hear from a Linden on this matter because even if it was a made up dilema for forum attention, it is an excellent example of what not to do. I would also like to know the official policy of dealing with this sort of problem.

~Thank You~

=[*.*]=

How was paymento f the "thousands od dollars" made? Paypal? Credit Card? Other?
Try opening a dispute witht he company used to handle the money transfer, this is the first step you should take whether you need to finally take legal action or not. Get every piece of documentation you have to support your claims together and contact an attorney, they will be the ones best able to tell you your options at this point.

Actually all you need to keep on deposit is the money itself.

Buyer pays the agent. -> Seller transfers the property to the buyer. -> Agent gives money to the seller.
If the Seller breaks the deal (doesn't transfer), the buyer gets the money back.
If the Buyer breaks the deal (doesn't pay), the process doesn't even start.

You can even swap land for land by assigning a prohibitively high deposit value for the land.
All you need is a trusted agent who can move money around.

This is the sort of thing banking in SL ought to be about.

I agree on that, a good post Watermelon. And as I run a RL business in SL (as a type of advert) I can see it could be done with the RL VOI of the middle agent.

But in my case I do not have a client account, nor do I wish to take on board the responsibility of doing so even for a SL business that is separate from my FL business unless I had robust approval from Linden Labs to do so, which would include the right to access private financial transactions of parties involved. That approval would be unlikely imho.

In addition (as a business) I would have to consider indemnity insurance and all sorts of other issues that in most SL businesses are simply not considered. It is certainly an idea, but I feel a more elegant solution is for Linden to software write a robust way of exchanging Sims. Of course they could charge a commission for the service.

Regards

John

There have been brokers in Ultima Online for quite a while doing this sort of thing.