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Help we were swindled |
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Gregg Barrymore
Registered User
Join date: 18 Dec 2006
Posts: 12
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02-03-2007 20:53
My partner and i and a friend bought all the property on an island and then bought the sim, the seller told us the sim is yours i wont mess with it anymore ( he had a few times taken ownership back and returned it to us claiming he had to fix things previously) . A matter of hours latter the person who sold it to us banned us took back the island making false claims we had violated the terms of the sale. We have been ripped off for thousands of dollars not to mention many hours of setting up a 1800's rp sim. It's a weekend and we cant seem to get any firm help and this guy will probable resale the land. there most be somthing that can be done now considering the amount of money and the urgency.
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Jason Hashimoto
Resident Pancake Expert
Join date: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 11
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02-03-2007 20:59
There isn't really anything you can do...
 You should have bought your own sim  _____________________
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Ravanne Sullivan
Pole Dancer Extraordinair
Join date: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 674
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02-03-2007 21:12
Did you go thru the proceedure of actually transfering hte title of the sim to yourselves? This requires both the seller and buyer to contact LL and make the transfer. If you have not done this you may well be out of luck as LL has little control over private deals. Do you have any real world contact information on the seller, your only course of action may be legal action against them if you can prove your claims.
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Ravanne's Dance Poles and Animations
Available at my Superstore and Showroom on Insula de Somni http://slurl.com/secondlife/Insula de Somni/94/194/27/ |
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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02-03-2007 21:48
report this to cyn linden.........She might be able to settle this.
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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02-03-2007 22:04
How can there be "nothing" he can do?
If LL doesn't fix it, then Second Life is just going to end up the virtual world of crooks. |
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FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
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02-03-2007 22:40
Sadly just consider this learning experience if you can't get help.
If you have thousand usd to spend I strong suggest you buy directly from Lindens in auctions. That what I do if I could afford it. |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 22:41
How can there be "nothing" he can do? If LL doesn't fix it, then Second Life is just going to end up the virtual world of crooks. That's absolutely right.............someone needs control. And LL is the one who needs to control it. If this is left without intervention and possible legal action the Linden Labs is just as guilty as the person who did the stealing. It's real money here and no matter now much LL tries to wash their hands with a TOS they are the ones who have a platform that allows the theft. Call LL every 5 mins and leave a message each time...........and if you don't hear from them call your local law enforcement and get the ball rolling. This is not some little thing like "I lost a few Lindens".............it's big time dollars. LL is responsible to putting up some protection to the users from fraud. Stuff like this will put this game out of bussiness. |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 22:44
Sadly just consider this learning experience if you can't get help. If you have thousand usd to spend I strong suggest you buy directly from Lindens in auctions. That what I do if I could afford it. That sounds like a LL line of crap..................they are responsible. The users are not responsible for investigating everyone who does business on SL................it's Linden Labs responsibility. You can't wash it clean with..........."chaulk it to a learning experience" and if you "can afford it". What a line of crap that is. |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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02-03-2007 22:44
If Linden puts in a procedure for the transfer of islands, you run major risks by not following the procedure. How many times here have people posted that buying land on islands is really rent, since THE LANDOWNER CAN RECLAIM THE LAND AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT CAUSE. How many times does one have to read that before it sinks in?
That said, I hope for the best but really... you cannot trust anyone here 100%, especially when it comes to land. edit: full disclosure. I rent property on islands. I understand the risks, and if crap happens... I am not going to ask LL to fix it because I know how it works. I'd just trash the island owner's name elsewhere! |
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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02-03-2007 22:48
How can there be "nothing" he can do? If LL doesn't fix it, then Second Life is just going to end up the virtual world of crooks. Its appearing more and more these days. |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 22:48
if that is true, Cristalle..........the game is doomed. Not everyone who plays is some legal eagle with all the ins and out of technicalities in terms of service.
The owners of the game have to have safeguards in place to prevent out and fraud or theft Can't just say........."oh well, you should have known". |
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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02-03-2007 22:53
Buying island from a second party can be a bitch. This one owner ( i thought) bought a island But it turns out she just did what this poor did. Just was too stupid to know aby better. Asked who she bought it from, turns out was frim a known land baron moron...But why people unlike this poor person learn you risk lose of land if you don`t trust people that are untrustable.
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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02-03-2007 22:56
if that is true, Cristalle..........the game is doomed. Not everyone who plays is some legal eagle with all the ins and out of technicalities in terms of service. The owners of the game have to have safeguards in place to prevent out and fraud or theft Can't just say........."oh well, you should have known". That said, these people may have some RL recourse since the stakes are high enough to pursue a lawsuit. Small claim, yes, but still enough to warrant real attention. A contract here may not be enforceable by LL, but an agreement between two human beings or entities is still an agreement and may be enforceable in real life. |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 22:59
And LL has absoulutely no safeguards on place to prevent such actions............that is a problem. If we were only talking about lindens with no real money value you can get by with such loose control. We ain't talking about that.............real dollars......substanial dollars. Hell there's more control over the sideway vendors at the local freeway exit.
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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02-03-2007 23:02
The safeguard is LL's procedure for transfer of islands.
http://secondlife.com/knowledgebase/article.php?id=054 9. Can I Transfer My Island? Private islands are transferable by the original owner to another SL resident. The billing will continue on the same schedule and buyer will be billed for the full amount of the next month's payment. The cost of transfer is US$100 and will be billed to the seller. This payment is for the backend work by Linden Lab including changing settings, billing transfer, changing the name, and returning the island to original terraform (if desired). The island can only be transferred as a single parcel. Any transfer of funds, whether in L$ or US$, must be handled between the original owner and the new owner. Linden Lab is unable to provide billing support, or to enforce any payment agreements between you and the new owner. Before we are able to initiate a transfer, we will need written confirmation (email) from both the buyer and the seller. If you would like to transfer your island, both parties should send an email to [email]concierge@secondlife.com[/email]. Include the name of the region in the subject line of your email, along with the words “Island Transfer”. What more do you want? |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 23:03
Well Cristalle................If that's the way it is in SL I'm just glad all I have invested is my quarterly bill of 22.50 USD. And that may not be long either. I don't do business with people or places that don't take care of there customers....especially regarding the money they spend to make the business prosper. It's unethical and borders on illegal.
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Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
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02-03-2007 23:04
What I don't get is that apparently, LL takes no part in the money side of the deal. Their role is purely in reacting to the email sent by the selling party. It seems to me there ought to be some kind of escrow system in place. Or am I missing something?
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 23:10
The safeguard is LL's procedure for transfer of islands. http://secondlife.com/knowledgebase/article.php?id=054 What more do you want? What more? A transfer not being let go through without that written 'authorization'. A simple hold on the transaction til it's all settled. That is the responsible thing..........and control over the game. And protection to the users. It's not enough to say.............."hey, I told you". This is real money. It's fraud and the way SL is set up there is absolutely no way the victim can obtain the info on the cheat........without very lengthy and expensive legal procedings. Like I said..............this is not a way a ligitament, competant and totally honest business runs. I prefer to think of LL and simply incompetant.....but it may be more. |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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02-03-2007 23:11
If they followed the procedure correctly, the island would have been transferred and Linden would have fixed the settings. The island owner COULD NOT HAVE TAKEN BACK THE LAND, because Linden would have changed the estate ownership. Here, the guy apparently paid what is effectively rent and then did not obtain ownership of the plot. Why leave LL out of the deal?
Now, let's think about this: if you are a buyer, at what point do you part with your money? I would say, after the seller emails the concierge to initiate the transfer and after you email the concierge, and you receive a response from LL. Once LL is involved and knows about the deal, it should be safe to pay the money. Gee, it didn't take me 10 minutes to think about that. There is no need for a 3rd party escrow service - that is just a middleman that will probably inflate the cost. |
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FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
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02-03-2007 23:14
I lost over 40 usd the first week I joined because like idiot I bite off more then I could chew and lost my judgement briefly.
And ever since then I am very careful about land dealings. I spent way too much went pretty much close to the maxium amount for new person but you know what that was important lesson for me and now I am very careful what and who I buy or sell too. 40 or 160 usd isn't much to lose to some people here who can spend over 1000 or more usd on the game but either way its hard to make mistakes but for me it meant I lived on oatmeal that month and I never will do it again. We all make mistakes, some of its more expensive then others. There is lot of crooks and scammers out in SL just like anywhere else. I suggest if you did the payment through paypal or finicial instution figure out away to do a dispute through them. |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 23:15
no middle man necessary...............a simple hold untill all the necessary stuff is done.
But I guess LL doesn't think that is necessary......because someone can just spend ten minutes to look it up. Not everyone know to even 'look it up'. This is not a little game anymore...........it's big time business to many. And that means you need to have big time safeguards in place to protect your users. |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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02-03-2007 23:18
Okay...........ya'll just chaulk it up to "experience" if you want. If that had happened to me I'd be on the phone to the California Attorney General. It's theft and there's no way a user has to protect himself except to "read the TOS".
Might even start with the US Attorney General..............this is interstate. Hell, it's international. |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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02-03-2007 23:21
no middle man necessary...............a simple hold untill all the necessary stuff is done. But I guess LL doesn't think that is necessary......because someone can just spend ten minutes to look it up. Not everyone know to even 'look it up'. This is not a little game anymore...........it's big time business to many. And that means you need to have big time safeguards in place to protect your users. Peggy, I fear for the business owners in this game who don't know what they are doing. And I have little sympathy for them if they don't try. In the real world, this could easily happen - but I'm not going to blame the government for not protecting me when there are procedures in place that are not followed. Courts tend to see past that and will often divest crooks of unjust enrichment, but there are plenty of people who screw themselves by entering into agreements blindly or by failing to understand what they are getting into. SL is not that much different from RL in this repsect. |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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02-03-2007 23:24
Okay...........ya'll just chaulk it up to "experience" if you want. If that had happened to me I'd be on the phone to the California Attorney General. It's theft and there's no way a user has to protect himself except to "read the TOS". Might even start with the US Attorney General..............this is interstate. Hell, it's international. |
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Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
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02-03-2007 23:24
ok, how is the buyer supposed to know the seller has actually sent the email requesting ownership transfer?
And supposing the seller sends that email first before receiving payment, how is he suposed to know the buyer isn't just going to send their email and fail to transfer their money? |