Call me a newb, but tonight was the first time I heard about temp rezzors for home use... so I decided to check it out. I found one in a classifieds search. In reading the info card, it states that "it allows you to 'borrow' prim allocations from other parcels in the sim which are not using their full allotment".
So this leads to a few questions in my mind...
* First off, is this legal/ethical or would I end up with someone angry at me and reporting me to my landowner (I rent my land)?
* Would my borrowing of prims result in my name showing up if they checked the prim count and owners of such in their 'about land'?
* Would my borrowing prims be affected by parcels set to auto-return?
* What happens if the parcel that the prims being borrowed from uses up its prim count, does this gadget automatically scan for other prims in the sim or does it randomly jump from parcel to parcel in seach of prims and not linger in one parcel too long?
Sorry is these questions sound stupid, I'll admit I know nothing about such things.
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Question about temp rezzors |
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Dementia Obviate
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 218
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06-26-2007 00:49
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Ava Glasgow
Hippie surfer chick
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,172
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06-26-2007 02:39
Hi Dementia, it's not a stupid question -- it's the info card that's stupid!
The quick answer: You're not stealing prims from your neighbors, but you are causing lag in the sim. Everything I've read says: Temp rezzors rez prims as "temporary" (one of the checkboxes in the edit window near phantom and physical. Temporary prims disappear on their own after 2-3 minutes, and are meant for things like bullets and such that do their thing and can then go away. They do not count toward anybody's prim limits. Temp rezzors are scripted objects that take advantage of this uncounted prim state. What they do is rez an object as temporary, and then when it's about to disappear, it re-rezzes it. Some of them blink out for a split second when this happens, and I'm pretty sure any temp-rezzed object you are sitting on will kick you off the sit/pose. And if you use it for your skybox, you might fall through the floor in that split second! The main problem with temp rezzors is that even though they don't affect prim count, they DO affect lag. Those prims are actually being calculated by both the sim and your computer, producing lag on both ends, and the script itself also causes lag. If you own your entire sim, then it's up to you to decide the acceptable level of lag. But if you are sharing with others, you should be considerate and keep temp rezzor use to a minimum. |
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Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
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06-26-2007 03:48
Call me a newb, but tonight was the first time I heard about temp rezzors for home use... so I decided to check it out. I found one in a classifieds search. In reading the info card, it states that "it allows you to 'borrow' prim allocations from other parcels in the sim which are not using their full allotment". So this leads to a few questions in my mind... * First off, is this legal/ethical or would I end up with someone angry at me and reporting me to my landowner (I rent my land)? It is within the ToS to use such items, unless LL decides the number of scripts in a sim is effectively a denial-of-service attack. the sim would be generally unusable long before that point. So, it's legal. Ethical? Hell no. It causes serious lag issues for even modest uses of such scripts, since it is constantly running actively. Were I renting out land, a ban on such temp-rezzers would be in there. The only valid use I can think of for them is when they are literally temporary - they rez an object once on command, and don't restore it (when teh temp flag causes it to vanish) unless manually asked to re-rez it. * Would my borrowing of prims result in my name showing up if they checked the prim count and owners of such in their 'about land'? It doesn't borrow prims in that way. Prims that have the "temp" flag set (such as those from this kind o script) are not counted against the reported sim usage statistics. * Would my borrowing prims be affected by parcels set to auto-return? if a parcel doesn't let you build there at all, the script won't be allowed to temp-rez any prims. Object auto-return doesn't otherwise temporary prims. * What happens if the parcel that the prims being borrowed from uses up its prim count, does this gadget automatically scan for other prims in the sim or does it randomly jump from parcel to parcel in seach of prims and not linger in one parcel too long? That isn't an issue, since prims are not borrowed from other parcels; temp prims aren't counted. Also, /327/c6/193420/1.html _____________________
 I rent out land on private islands. Message me in-world for details. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-26-2007 06:52
The quick answer: You're not stealing prims from your neighbors, but you are causing lag in the sim. There is/should also be a parcel limit on temp prims, as well as a sim-wide limit. and I'm pretty sure any temp-rezzed object you are sitting on will kick you off the sit/pose. |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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06-26-2007 06:58
Copied from an answer of mine to another thread:
Rezzers can inpact a sim. So can AO's, avatar radars, vendors, etc, etc, etc. Like anythign else in SL, rezzers are no more hazordous than the person using them. Put them in the hands of the uninformed, or malicious, and they can cause sim degragation as doom-heralded above. Use the responsibly and they are no more/less probmatic than any other script in SL. Things to concider: 1) The complexity of the build being rezzed. Rezzing scripted objects is very complex, as is certain builds (toruses for one). This varies from build to buidl, however. A very complext object may not generate any lag at all while a seemingly simple object may lag the sim badly. 2) Number of rezzers. If you use them, remember, you can "take" more than one object at a time and it inventories as one object. Set out a furnature suite, for example, and take the couch, chair, table all at once (after they are set how you want) and then place that one grouped object into a single rezzer. Rezzing is an action, the less you use, the lower the overall usage on the server. 3) CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+1 Know it. Use it. Understand sim FPS, Time Dialation, script times, active scripts, etc, etc BEFORE you even think about buying/making a rezzer. Do NOT rely on scripted scanners to give you this information. 4) Talk to your neighbors in your sim. This is a big one. Some misinformed persons file false ARs agaisnt rezzers on sight. Talk with your neighbors and discuss what you have planned and ask them to report any lag or spikes to you. You may have to adjust and replace/redesign a few times to get things stable. Being conciderate of your neighbors in the begining can save you a mass of headaches later on. 5) TempOnRez prims are not infinate. LL has allowed them, but has a complex equation in place to limit them to prevent abuse. Simplified (by the last information I recieved from LL), you can use up to 50% of you prim allotment as ToR prims, to a max of 500 ToR prims. (This information is based off of outdated data. Due to the changing nature of SL, this number can change without notice. Up or down.) 6) ToR prims are "holograms" for all intense purposes. Making solid structures from them just won't work. You'll wind up falling through the floor or such. Using them for objects with sit-poses is futile as well. You will be standing on every re-rez. All in all, be responsible. I recommend that with every script/build. I wish some stores did that and watched how laggy their vendors made the area, or maybe casinos and clubs would be advised to do the same *smirks* Rezzers gained a bad rep from people using them that either did no know about the effects, or didn't care, or wanted to use those ill effects to harrass others. As to where to buy them? They are all over, but the one I am familiar with is sold at aubreTEC. Many options there including how often something is rezzed. Timed or just by touch. ~Jessy Rezzers are legal, and, as stated, do not 'steal' prims from anyone. LL has even constructed a coding to ensure that no one pushes the prim usage of a sim over the limit (No, 15000 is NOT the max limit, but it IS the safe limit LL has set upon.). ~Jessy _____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid:
Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-26-2007 07:13
Using them for objects with sit-poses is futile as well. You will be standing on every re-rez. You'll notice that you can sit on it for however long you want and it's only when you stand up that the prim actually vanishes. Rezzers are legal, and, as stated, do not 'steal' prims from anyone. LL has even constructed a coding to ensure that no one pushes the prim usage of a sim over the limit (No, 15000 is NOT the max limit, but it IS the safe limit LL has set upon.). |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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06-26-2007 07:26
Rez a prim, check temporary, take it to inventory, rez it, then sit on it. You'll notice that you can sit on it for however long you want and it's only when you stand up that the prim actually vanishes. Depends on the object from what I've experianced. Some do, some dont. I've found it WAY to annoying to be tossed up. imo, furnature and teh like should remain perm prims, but that's a matter of preference and on a case-by-case basis *shrugs* Unless that's a change from less then a month ago, it's not the way it actually works in practice. Yes, you can occasionally end over 15,000 but it still won't allow anyone to use their remaining free prims on their land due to someone else's temp rezzer. Using a private island as a testing platform, I've filled it with the full 15,000 prims and conducted rez testing. I had no problem as long as I fell within the guidlines for the ToRs on a plot for plot basis. (well, no problem rezzing the ToRs. I did find some VERY bad combinations that DID effect the sim performance *shudders*) Yes, I did have more than one rezzer and on more than one plot for the test. Only 5 plots taken to the 500 ToR max though. Beyond that may or may not suffice. Hence that "talking with neighbors" step I mentioned has even mroe weight. Another factor would be that those 15,000 prims were just plywood cubes. No scripts, nor textures *shrugs* I wasn't going through too much pains jsut to test, heh. Also, these tests were run around last August. Changes to the grid could effect any, or all, of the data *shrugs* Knowing a limit is a good thing, but running at a limit is usually a bad idea. Even hitting the prim allotment on you plot can be bad as you can't rez a darn thing if your plot is full. ANYthing taken to excess is bad. ~Jessy _____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid:
Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-26-2007 07:40
Also, these tests were run around last August. Changes to the grid could effect any, or all, of the data *shrugs* Knowing a limit is a good thing, but running at a limit is usually a bad idea. Even hitting the prim allotment on you plot can be bad as you can't rez a darn thing if your plot is full. ANYthing taken to excess is bad.  .I do remember two Live Help calls where "Server is full" turned out to be caused by temp rezzers on someone else's plot. In one case it was an estate owner and when he returned the other tenant's rezzer, the problem went away. With what you said it's probably a hit and miss on whether you can flirt with the limit or not . |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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06-26-2007 07:51
There were harsher limits on temp-on-rez prims introduced within the past year in order to deal with this.
Regardless of what the TOS says, using temp-on-rez prims to create permanent structures is clearly using them for other than their intended purpose. |
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Dementia Obviate
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 218
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06-26-2007 08:26
Thanks for your replies. As I said, I never even knew these gadgets existed until last night when I saw a reference to them in another post. It got me curious, but after reading your replies, I've decided that I'm not so desperate for extra prims that I want to create any more lag than we have to live with already.
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Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
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06-26-2007 09:00
TempOnRez prims are NOT counted against anyones parcel prims count, not yours and not your neighbors... not even if the sim is full. They occupy a different catagory and have their own limits set within the simulator. Just like was said, they dont disappear when you sit on them if they are due to expire. They also dont expire if you are "holding" them with the edit tools, but will poof when you release them. You CAN drop thru them if they expire and you're moving (like a floor).. if you are still, you'll drop after ~15 seconds or so.
Using auto-rezzers is NOT a foul (like so many would have you believe) IF, IF you use them smartly. Using them in crowded, busy, or prim-heavy sims is probably not smart. Using them to rez objects with insane numbers of prims is not good. Using them to rez objects with scripts in them is VERY EXTREMELY not good... each script needs to initialize every time the object is replaced and has big effects on a sims script time. That means no temp sexbed and no temp chair or couch with a zillion poses in it - just dont do it. However, those items without the scripts and poses included shouldn't cause any problems as long as you dont autorez a lot of them. They don't cause much issues with the textures ON the prims you rez because you're replacing the exact copy over and over... the texture is already cached and doesnt have to be downloaded again from the asset server, although it does have to query the asset server so keep that in mind. The autorezzer prim itself does not cause any detectable lag.. it only has a timer to tell it when to replace the old temp object when its about to expire. It's what you rez WITH it that can grind a sims performance down and piss people off. Most say not to use them, not because they cant be used smartly and not lag things down, but because there's always one greedy idiot in a group that'll go way overboard and kill other peoples SL experience just because they can. Used in a smart and respectful manner, an autorezzer causes LESS draw on a sims performance than a pair of HUD-driven flexi flapping wings. |
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Ace Albion
Registered User
Join date: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 866
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06-27-2007 02:29
Do what you like with them. the Lindens put in code to deal with them, and don't appear to care otherwise.
_____________________
Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24)
ace.5pointstudio.com |
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Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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06-27-2007 06:12
The quick answer: You're not stealing prims from your neighbors, but you are causing lag in the sim. Is this so? I have 3 or 4 on my land rezzing flowers and grass. I do not notice any lag caused by them. The sim I am in is very low on lag, so I think when something would all of a sudden cause constant lag I (and the other persons in the Sim) would notice... still nothing of that all. Morwen. |
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bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
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06-27-2007 06:26
The sim I am in is very low on lag ... .. except when it's Mandy's turn with the shovel and bucket .. then it gets very slow! _____________________
Be polite .. that newbie could be your next ex-partner.
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Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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06-27-2007 06:29
.. except when it's Mandy's turn with the shovel and bucket .. then it gets very slow! But that is only because of her complaining how unfair it is that she has the clean out the horse stables!!! |
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SqueezeOne Pow
World Changer
Join date: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,437
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06-27-2007 10:48
The main problem with temp rezzors is that even though they don't affect prim count, they DO affect lag. Those prims are actually being calculated by both the sim and your computer, producing lag on both ends, and the script itself also causes lag. I use koubun temp_on_rez boxes for displays in my shop and other builds and have never experienced any lag because of them...and the items I use them on would normally be up to 100+ prims. I also used them for a major building at one point to test their limits without any noticeable difference in lag. I have a ghetto-ass 5 year old computer, too! Making a sim full of them would be a problem but just using them for less important yet high prim items won't cause any noticeable problems. Besides, they blink every once in a while and that would look silly for your whole sim to blink...unless you're into that kind of thing. Lindens are cool with them as long as they aren't used maliciously or to an extent that causes super lag (as in the scenario of using them for an entire sim's build). I did similar research when I was considering them. _____________________
Semper Fly
-S1. Pow "Violence is Art by another means" Visit Squeeze One Plaza in Osteria. Come for the robots, stay for the view!http://slurl.com/secondlife/Osteria/160.331/203.881 |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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06-27-2007 11:07
Also, these tests were run around last August. Changes to the grid could effect any, or all, of the data *shrugs* Knowing a limit is a good thing, but running at a limit is usually a bad idea. Even hitting the prim allotment on you plot can be bad as you can't rez a darn thing if your plot is full. ANYthing taken to excess is bad. ~Jessy I being a curious sort saw a flickering temp rezzing object and the person had more then one and when one dies the other rezzed so i put a bunch of temp rezzing things out (scripted ones) there now appears to be a limit on the amount of seperately rezzing temp rez things (not sure how else to say it) but say you have 300 items on one temp rez script and another 300 on another temp rez script if you keep rezzing them there is a point where you can rez no more also there is a point where they wont all function. There appears to be a limit on the number of temp rezzing scripted groups you can have which is one script per 512 of land. I tried this in a bunch of areas and it held true sure enough when i dragged out a temp rezzor that made the lots exceed 1 per 512 sq meters they started to alternate if i went past it too much I could not rez a single prim even I have no idea why i decided to figure out this stuff but i did.. |
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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06-27-2007 11:35
I being a curious sort saw a flickering temp rezzing object and the person had more then one and when one dies the other rezzed so i put a bunch of temp rezzing things out (scripted ones) there now appears to be a limit on the amount of seperately rezzing temp rez things (not sure how else to say it) but say you have 300 items on one temp rez script and another 300 on another temp rez script if you keep rezzing them there is a point where you can rez no more also there is a point where they wont all function. There appears to be a limit on the number of temp rezzing scripted groups you can have which is one script per 512 of land. I tried this in a bunch of areas and it held true sure enough when i dragged out a temp rezzor that made the lots exceed 1 per 512 sq meters they started to alternate if i went past it too much I could not rez a single prim even I have no idea why i decided to figure out this stuff but i did.. This has to do with the DE-Rezzing aspect. Some rezzers allow you to place in another script into the object you wish to rez called a "clean up script". This works in conjuction with the rezzer and de-rezzes the object just as it rezzes the other. That way one is actually removed a few milliseconds before the other. Lower end rezzers rely on the sim to de-rez the object. The problem here is the sim derez times vary anywhere from 60-120 seconds, and Time Dialation impacts this greatly. The amount of ToR prims you can rez is not linked to jsut one type of object. If you rez over your limit on one object that is only a few prims, but does not clean up correctly, the rezzer will fail and error messages will occur. This is also one of the prim causes of lag with rezzers. Though I beleive that too high an error on this count will trigger LL's "grey goo fence" but I really do not wish to test that for obvious reason *grins* I HIGHLY suggest the more complex (and thereby more expensive) rezzers for those that wish to use them in such a continuous state. Using the other style can work, but takes much more study to configure correctly,and results vary from object to object and from sim to sim,and even for when sims change servers (as usually happens on grid restarts for updates). ~Jessy _____________________
When your friend does somethign stupid:
Dude, you are a true and good friend, and I love you like the brother that my mom claims she never had, but you are in fact acting like a flaming douche on white toast with a side order of dickknob salsa..maybe you should reconsider this course of action and we go find something else to do. |
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Ava Glasgow
Hippie surfer chick
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,172
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06-27-2007 11:47
I use koubun temp_on_rez boxes for displays in my shop and other builds and have never experienced any lag because of them... It's funny, because some people's experience is that they really increase lag, while others say it doesn't at all. Somebody else suggested that the lag involved is very much affected by the scripts in the object. No scripts = no lag, laggy script = even laggier performance. My only direct experience with one is for a group of free-swimming tropical fish. I can set out individual fish without the rezzer, and the free-swimming script, while beautiful, IS extremely laggy. But I find putting out the same number of fish using the rezzer causes even MORE lag, so much so that I just can't use it. (Bummer too, because it is seriously cool.) Making a sim full of them would be a problem but just using them for less important yet high prim items won't cause any noticeable problems. That seems to be the key. I've seen some advertisements for rezzers suggesting they COMPLETELY eliminate your prim limit, but most people seem to agree that going hogwild with them is a bad idea. If it's true that LL has included some sort of separate limit for temp-rezzing prims, then we don't have to worry about people limiting themselves (which you know SOME just won't do if they don't have to). One assertion I find interesting is that rezzing 100 prims with a temp-rezzer is somehow LESS laggy than rezzing them normally. My understanding is that temp-rezzing bypasses the prim limit, but that those temp prims still have to have their physics calculated by the sim, and have their scripts run, and have their info sent over the network to your computer, and get rendered by your computer for viewing on your screen. I just don't see how they in any way get around the normal sources of lag. In terms of processing power, the only difference I see is that (a) something is timing them so they disappear after a few minutes, (b) they all have to be re-rezzed every few minutes, and (c) their scripts, if any, are reinitialized. That can add up to a little more lag, or a lot more lag, but how can it add up to less? |
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SqueezeOne Pow
World Changer
Join date: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,437
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06-27-2007 12:05
It's funny, because some people's experience is that they really increase lag, while others say it doesn't at all. Well, maybe I'm just lucky and bought a good product! I did a lot of research before I settled on who to use based on options, copy/mod rights and price. I can't say enough good things about Koubun! It's definitely not a fix-all for prim limits, but I've been able to rely heavily on them for parts of buildings and now mostly my shop displays (they're basically interactive statues of the mech suits I sell). _____________________
Semper Fly
-S1. Pow "Violence is Art by another means" Visit Squeeze One Plaza in Osteria. Come for the robots, stay for the view!http://slurl.com/secondlife/Osteria/160.331/203.881 |
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Mortus Allen
Registered User
Join date: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 528
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06-27-2007 12:05
I asked this in the other thread on this subject the other day, but it seems to have gone dorment, so I will ask here again. What temp rezzers would you recommend that are easy to set up, cause minimal script lag and perhaps even an optional on/off feature as well? I have 2 low/no interaction builds on my modest parcel, 75 Prims and 25ish Prims, if I could get this down to 1 or 2 prims with a temp rezzer(s) without causing excessive sim lag, I would be able to use the saved prims for additional multi-prim builds that get more interaction.
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SqueezeOne Pow
World Changer
Join date: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,437
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06-27-2007 12:11
I asked this in the other thread on this subject the other day, but it seems to have gone dorment, so I will ask here again. What temp rezzers would you recommend that are easy to set up, cause minimal script lag and perhaps even an optional on/off feature as well? I have 2 low/no interaction builds on my modest parcel, 75 Prims and 25ish Prims, if I could get this down to 1 or 2 prims with a temp rezzer(s) without causing excessive sim lag, I would be able to use the saved prims for additional multi-prim builds that get more interaction. Koubun koubun koubun!! look that up on www.slexchange.com. Easy to figure out and the right amount of options that do the right things (including the on/off feature you mentioned above). I swear by this guy's product! _____________________
Semper Fly
-S1. Pow "Violence is Art by another means" Visit Squeeze One Plaza in Osteria. Come for the robots, stay for the view!http://slurl.com/secondlife/Osteria/160.331/203.881 |
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Robustus Hax
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 231
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06-27-2007 12:20
It's funny people say "It causes lag"
Can anyone tell me what DOESNT cause lag? Hell a sim with 20 people will lag.., Linden Birthday Partys will lag, door scripts lag.. etc etc |
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Ava Glasgow
Hippie surfer chick
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,172
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06-27-2007 12:45
It's funny people say "It causes lag" Can anyone tell me what DOESNT cause lag? Hell a sim with 20 people will lag.., Linden Birthday Partys will lag, door scripts lag.. etc etc Ah Robustus... so sad, but so so true. Even in choosing our own preferences/options (high or low detail on terrain, how far is the draw distance), we have to constantly choose between beauty/realism/functions and performance. I guess it's a question of how much lag something is causing. I can pop out a one-prim fish that swims in simple circles, and that script will contribute slightly to the overall lag. If I use my free-swimming, collision-detecting, multi-prim fish with flexi fins, obviously that one causes a lot more lag... but it is also WAY more realistic and I strongly prefer it. So I must choose: have a lot of fake looking fish, or just 2-3 really good ones. I believe Squeeze is right, and that all temp-rezzers are not created equal where lag-generation is concerned. And thanks for the Koubun recommendation, Squeeze... it's nice to hear of the ones that took the time to do it right. Less lag makes everyone's lives better. |
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SqueezeOne Pow
World Changer
Join date: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,437
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06-27-2007 12:48
... it's nice to hear of the ones that took the time to do it right. Less lag makes everyone's lives better. HOORAY FOR NO LAG! _____________________
Semper Fly
-S1. Pow "Violence is Art by another means" Visit Squeeze One Plaza in Osteria. Come for the robots, stay for the view!http://slurl.com/secondlife/Osteria/160.331/203.881 |