Reselling Clothes that have Xfer permissions

Ok, here is my situation. I had an overload of clothes in my inventory, and decided to sell them off so I opened up a small resale shop and took the pics and put the stuff up for sale.

Of course in my classified I put down the names of the designers so ppl would know what I have. I also would split up "packages" of clothes so those who wish the one specific item could get it without getting the whole pack.

It was going well and I decided well, why not buy stuff I see at yardsales and add them here too. So I did find a bit here and there priced at what I thought was decent enough so I could do a small mark up and still offer then cheaply. Unfortuantly one was a freebie but I did not know this, when the designer contacted me about it I was willing to remove it....


However this goes a step beyond that, I was also told I could not sell the other stuff as individual items if they were in a package deal. 2 other designers were at my store when I went there to meet up with this specific designer and they all decided to start bashing me because I was reselling their items and not the way they intended them to be sold.

Some stuff they told me was priced higher than their store, well I was not going to research each thing I got, I just priced according to what I paid. No one was forced to buy from me, and eventually if something did not sell I would mark it down till it did.

Anywho... here is my question to you the general public...

If a designer makes an article of clothing and puts the permissions as resell/give away (AKA xferable) do they have the right to tell the one who purchased it how they can resell or give it away?

Putting this in a real life perspective... Gucci makes a hand bag but tells the retailer they can not sell it....

Or you buy some GAP jeans and decided to sell them on Ebay... does GAP have the right to tell you what price to sell it at?

I personally do not see how or where the designer has the right to tell me what I can sell and for how much. (but that is what they did)

To the point that I closed my resale shop.

So if anyone wants some slightly used designer clothes contact me I will unload what I have (will send you a list if you wish of what I have and for how much for the lot)

Maybe you will have better luck than I did with the reselling.

I think if they do not want it resold in any form, then make them non transferable. Sure ppl like to give them as gifts but offer gift certificates if you are that against your stuff being resold.

I am not mentioning the names of the designers because I do not need more flack from them, however if you want to know (obviously if you want to buy the items you will want to know who they are made by) IM me in game or leave me a PM here.

Thanks for listening, sorry for the long post. I just feel like I was picked out and no clue why. Do a search for some of the top designers and you will see I am not the only one who was reselling their stuff.

Yes, and no.
If I sell you something with the understanding (through a contract or license) that you are allowed to give it away, but not resell it (and assuming that my restriction does not contradict any legal right) then you are in violation if you do choose to resell, regardless of whether transfer permissions were set or not.
If I sell you something and there is no stipulation on what you're allowed to do with it things get a whole lot less clear. I certainly can't (legally, ethically is a whole other matter) try and enforce restrictions you didn't agree upon when purchasing.

I was in an animation store yesterday that had a clear stipulation that you were allowed to buy the animations and give them away, but not to resell. If you were to buy one of those, you are explicitly agreeing with the conditions of the sale and bound to them.

Another example would be if I sell you a C/NT pre-fab under the condition that you'll be using it to live in, and not to rez 500 copies of it as rentals. SL won't stop you from doing exactly that, but you'll be liable none the less. The fact that you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you're allowed to do it.

I'm not sure whether or not the use of their name/brand is in this case fair use or not, if they object specifically to your use of their name, the best thing to do there is to simply remove that because you were probably balancing on the line with that. The fact that others do it doesn't make it right for you to do.

All that said, there's still a question about what is "the right thing to do". Given that so many designers frown/hate the reselling of their creations, it's certainly a good idea to check with them if they are alright with it, the way you're doing it and with the price you're asking for it. From their end, if they don't want their creations resold, but that was never a stipulation when you bought the item, then they should refund or take it back at some compensation because it was really their responsability to communicate that.

That's not always an option, and permission are ambigious at best in any case. In the case of animations above, taking away transfer would leave them copy which I can imagine would lead them to sell them at a much higher price than they currently do.
Same with the pre-fab, I could sell you a NC/T copy of the house, but that would be inconvenient at best.

If you buy a package that contains 5 colours at $100 and resell each separate copy for $50 you might strictly speaking not be doing anything wrong, but it's still questionable at best and you can't really blame anyone for objecting to that point specifically.

I was not asking if it was right or wrong of me to resell things on a moral standpoint

I just wanted to know if they have any rights to tell me I can not resell them if they set them as resellable/give away

I feel that if I make anything (and yes I have sold some of my own stuff) that once I set them to that permission then I am saying that it is ok for them to resell or give it away.

I feel I do not have a right to tell anyone that buys my stuff what they can do with it, once they buy it they own it.

The same can be said for my RL artwork, I have sold a lot of my creations and if I were to find one on ebay for a higher price than I sold it for, I do not have grounds to tell the seller they can not sell it

I am just stumped and baffled that I was told that I could not sell those items as I saw fit.

Really confused too.

I understood about using their names and had no problem with taking the brand names out of the ad, however I still do not understand what gave them the right to come to me and tell me I could not resell the stuff and at whatever price I wanted.

please someone help me understand that one aspect. how they could come to me and tell me that. Do they have that right? (I do not mean moral right or just they felt it was right, but legal right from SL point of view)

There was no stipulations on the articles of clothing when I bought them, so therefore from my understanding when they set those permissions they are basically saying that the buyer can sell or give the item away.


(yes it would be nice if SL made it so those 2 options were split... ie resell as one and give as gift another)

I have had a few ppl tell me I should have just ignored the designers and gone ahead and kept my store open because I had the right to sell those things as I saw fit

If I wanted to sell each and every piece separate and at 10,000 L each that was up to me

If the clothing item is transferable but not copyable then I think most clothing designers (myself included) would have no problem with you selling that single item to someone else provided it was for no more than you paid for it. If the item is both transferable and copyable then selling it would be a no-no since you'd then be competing against the original creator with their own creation.

I think the freebies and the bundled items shouldn't have been resold. There was obviously SOME kind of conditions attached to their initial release, and such, probably not the best idea to resell them. The mainstream items however, as in purchased single items with transfer and resell allowed, should not have been an issue. The item has been payed for, money has gone to the creator for that copy. The trumped up issue of brand name isn't a standing point in these cases IMO. Whether it's resold at sky-high or given away free, the creator needs to look at it as increased exposure for said brand name as long as that item was originally payed for under their terms. The bottom line is if they dont want them to be resold, they HAVE to disallow transfer and resell... If there was no listed stipulations at the time you bought them, I believe you have every right in the world to do with them as you please. If the creator doesn't want their product being sold second hand, it's THEIR fault for allowing transfer/resell. It's definately not your responsibility to care if they suddenly have a change of heart and alter terms of sale on items AFTER you purchased yours.

It is perfectly fine to resell items that are transferrable, no matter how the designers try to hassle you. This is similar to a resale shop in RL, or eBay-- where any idiot can find things selling for higher values than they were originally purchased for.

If you are able to sell their creations for higher than they are selling for, designers have several options:

1. Raise their prices
2. Buy your inventory back
3. Make a deal with you to buy from them wholesale
4. Beg or pay you for marketing advice

they were no copy

as for splitting up the items and selling any of those items be it split packs or single items should be up to me if each item is set to be resellable

I still am confused as to how the designer has the right to tell me what to do with an item once I buy it
I am not using any malicious means to copy said items, I am doing it all via the abilities put forth in the item when the creator made it

there were no stipulations when the items were bought, they were simply just bought some as packages at other yard sales others were bought long ago at the original store

as to the price I put, why is that a problem, ppl have the right to choose where they wish to buy stuff


some of these set items I bought I only wanted one part of it, so what is wrong with me selling the rest of the items in the set?

freebies I am not in the habit of selling, as I stated I did not know they were freebie items, most freebies are no transfer... these were transferable...

and again why do ppl have a problem with the splitting up of packaged items?

say you go to walmart and you see a dish set you like but you are not in the habit of using creamers and butter dishes, is it wrong for you to put those 2 items for sale in a yard sale, at whatever price you wish, be it more than walmart;s price or not?

or is this just a SL thing?

still confused...

Nothing to be confused about. You are selling transferred originals, not illegal copies. Ignore them.

I create content. Not clothing so much (well I do produce some and more to come) but primarily I make and sell prim attachments.




This is correct in my opinion. If designers don't want something of theirs resold, there is a simple solution. Make their stuff no transfer. Period. If you've purchased an item and own it, and it has transfer/resell permission, go ahead and resell it if you don't want it any longer. I don't see that the original designer has any business telling you what price to sell it for.

If people buy something of mine that is transfer/resell, and mark it up and sell it to someone, that is the new buyer's lookout. They could get it for a better price from me if they came to my stores instead (It's called SHOPPING for a reason )

That said, I couldn't see myself paying more to a reseller for an item that I can get direct from a designer for a lesser price, but you know how it is, some people are just lazy and maybe cant' be bothered to look up who made something and go get it from the source. When I have a cleaning inventory sale, I plan to go back and check what I paid for things, and set the resale price accordingly lower. That's only sensible if you really want to get rid of the clutter.


and Chip (I dig your stuff btw!), any creator who is putting their stuff out there copy/transfer.. erm, well they need to have a good slap up .. I mean, they need to really review what permissions mean.

thank you all for the input both here and in pm/im's

I will rethink it and might put my stuff back up for sale, at least until it is all sold

some of it should sell quickly as it is not being produced anymore, other stuff due to being a split package will sell too due to it being easier to get the one item that that person wants

so again ty, I was and still am a bit baffled as to why those 3 specific designers felt the need to attack me as a group

I felt cornered and threatened

my r/l boyfriend told me I should have just told them to bugger off heh

not my style, I tend to back down

wonder how many others do the same thing when threatened by the "big guys"

no wonder so many ppl find SL hard to live... worse than RL in some instances

I make and sell clothes myself. I think that when you have a no-copy, transfer OK version of an outfit, it's OK to resell that one intact outfit as you see fit, for a higher or lower price. That is my own policy, at least.

Breaking up a set is a different matter. I think in most cases that shouldn't be allowed.

For example: I bought a dress collection from another designer. It contained 5 color variations of one outfit. By your way of thinking, it would be OK for you to split that bundle into 5 seperate resellable dresses. You might even keep your favorite color, and sell the other 4. However, I seriously doubt that the designer of the dress wanted it to be sold as singles. If they did, they would sell 5 different outfits at a lower price, and consumers could pick and choose which to buy. As they do not do that, my assumption would be that they charged you for one outfit, and perhaps increased the price slightly for the convenience of giving the buyer 5 color options.

Taking one of my own products as an example, I sell a Sarong Dress that has 3 pieces. The skirt is one piece, and the top comes as two variations - a shirt layer and a jacket layer. I did that to give the buyer the option to layer the outfit with other clothes in a more flexible manner. Perhaps to wear the jacket layer over a shirt-layer bikini and an undershirt-layer set of nipples. Or instead, to wear the shirt layer over an underwear-layer bikini, and wear a cover-up jacket over both the sarong and the swimsuit. I did not, however, desire them to choose one of those tops to keep with the skirt for themselves, and then to sell the second top as a shirt-only item to someone else.

I recently started selling that Sarong outfit in bundled of 4 color variations, so you could mix and match colors. But I don't charge as high a price for the 4-dress, 12-piece set as I would for each 3-piece single-color set sold as a single outfit. The bundle is to allow the consumer more color options.

You might well ask "why should the designer care?", and the answer to that varies with the designers. Some won't care at all. But the ones that do care probably don't like the idea of partially functional versions fo their outfits floating around out there. Let's say that you bought my 3-piece sarong, and sold just the top to someone else. That person comes to me later, wearing just the top, and says their matching skirt is missing or damaged, and asks for a replacement. Should I give them a new skirt? If they insist they had one earlier, and they have the top, I probably would, as a matter of customer service. But now there are two outfits out there, where there should have been one and a half. So in trying to be a good merchant and provide good customer service, I get ripped off for the value of one outfit.

Does that make sense?

The best bet is to keep clothing sets intact, and sell them as a unit, if at all possible.

I am not asking if the designer cares, being that will differ from designer to designer

I am asking if they have a legal right to tell me I can not sell items I bought that have the permissions to allow me to do so

as for splitting them up, I personally see nothing wrong with that, selling or giving away

and in your sample, if someone comes to you saying they bought it, check your records and see if they did, as a business person it is in your best interest to come to the website and your account and download the files from the transactions and keep records of who buys what.

and yes I myself design and sell my own creations, not a lot but some and I allow xfer/resell and some of my stuff is bundled and if someone bought the bundle because they wanted only one color, and sold the rest I see nothing wrong with that.
They bought it from me for what my asking price is, if they can then resell and make a profit then good for them. I got what I wanted for it, what happens to it after that is no concern to me (unless it is an issue such as copy bot that is a totally different story there)

anywho....

I wish to thank everyone for putting in their opinions, again though they are coming across as opinions so maybe I should check with LL and see if those designers had any rights to tell me how I can or can not sell those items I purchased legit with transfer perms on them

Dunno how common it is these days beyond Goodwill, but second hand clothing and bookstores were common when I was a starving student, and it was not uncommon to find components of outfits being sold in such places - jacket and pants priced and sold separately, even if theywere originally part of a complete suit, or books from a boxed set (though more often than not, recombined because it made a better sale to sell the set).

As stated above, if there were stipulations included in the original sale (re:resale), you are bound by that.

On the matter of freebies; a tough cookie. Personally, even if I sold other people's work, I wouldn't dream of selling a freebie, however, unless stated somewhere within the object, it should be acceptable - no one could possibly be expected to know every freebie in the world just on sight (in cases where you are buying stuff from other people's yard sales, I mean - once shown to you that it was in fact a freebie that the other person sold you, it falls to your own ethics to remove it from sale). Personally I find the resale of others work in any form distatsteful, but that's just me - I'm pretty scrupulous about that sort of thing (I don't even make things if I see someone's covered that territory competently - how many times have I cursed the wall when I've seen someone has already created something like something I was planning on making...) However, places like "Goodwill" and "Out of the Closet" (charitible organizations) seem to have dispensation in regards to freebies: I'll often find publisher's review copies/studio's "for your consideration - not for resale" Emmy/Oscar copies of books and videos in such places.

So taster's choice.

But to answer your question susinctly; unless a designer has stipulated no-resale, and particularly, no re-sale componentially, you're actually in the clear. They may not like it, but it's not a "rule" unless they specify.

Cheers!
Sarge

The designers are good at making things, but most have no idea about business or marketing. My advice to you: OPEN YOUR STORE BACK UP! As long as you are selling items which you bought AND they are set to resell/giveaway, you CAN sell them. Period. Even freebee items can be resold if you like. Even copy Items can. The only time that you should not resell an item is if when you bought the item, it was stated, and you agreed that you could not resell the item. This is typical of textures, but you are selling clothes. The fact that you are selling transfer/resell items and not even copy items makes your case even stronger.

To sum up:
There is nothing LL will do to you and there is nothing any of the designers can do to you regarding you reselling their items at a higher price. And as someone else already said, they should be PAYING YOU for marketing advice. Being moral is all fine and dandy, but business is business and many of these happy happy joy joy artsy fartsy designers don't know squat in that regards. Next time one of them harasses you, report them, ignore them, and ban them from your store. Good luck!

the items I purchased directly from the designer had no stipulations with them, just a basic sale

stuff bought at yardsales were single items and no stipulations included
and I do not feel I should have to research items I purchase via a yardsale

so according to what I have read, I am within my rights to resell them either singulary or in groups and for what price I wish, as long as it is not breaking any written stipulation included with the purchased item.

ty alienware

ty all I appreciate all views those that do and do not match mine heh

It is nice to get answers without threats or hidden threats

personally (not to boast) but I do feel I must have done something right and better than the designers being I was able to sell items for higher than they do...

maybe that is what upset them, I one upped them...


*shrug*

still debating reopening the store

right now working on a rental script for a shanty that I have permission from the creator to rent it out, heck even offering him a landmark giver by the shanty for him being nice to me

this whole thing has made me leery of contacting anyone who makes stuff, bad experience

In the real world once you buy something it belongs to you and you can sell it again, a lot of the time. But usually the thing you are selling is used and bashed up or scratched or torn a little, and has a lower value than it had when you bought it (for about 100 years, anyhow). Thus there is little issue with a reseller coming into competition with the original maker of the item. In SL things don't depreciate like this, so there is the possibility of coming into direct competition with the creator of the objects.

I make my stuff all no transfer, byut I don't think I would mind someone selling one item they had of mine if it had transfer perms. But I'd really not like it if someone bought my stuff in bulk and then resold it at any price (higher or lower) - unless we had worked out that arrangement.

No, you simply succeeded at getting a higher price for their work - most designers don't price by the highest they can possibly sell something for. Myself, I keep my prices moderate because I want to insure that someone realitvely new to the world might possibly afford them. It's all about character. I'm not here to fleece people. If that's all you're after, it's easily done. No big skill involved there, so no need to disjoint your arm patting yourself on the back.

solivar no need to be mean and make me sound like I am out to fleece ppl

I simply made a statement of opinion that followed what others suggested.

I am not disjointing anything to do anything...

thank you

No, if the item is marked as transfer-enabled then it'd generally means the holder of copyright (the original maker) grants you the right to pass the item in question to someone else. (or more technically, gives up on part of copyright which by defaults make it something that shouldn't be done)

A separate question is, if it's something worth taking advantage of in the long run. While people are quick to yell "don't want me to resell your items, make them not transfer", eventually it may lead to exactly that, the makers setting their items to copy only/no transfer. Which, as it often happens, would mean a few profiteers ruining the good thing (ability to pass the item to another person done in moderation) for many.

Exactly - I currently set a lot of my materials to transfer because I've just recently stopped using vendors - the vendors I had made it possible to automatically send items to a second party if you wanted to buy them a gift. But, since a lot of people don't want to spend the time going through a vendor, I have everything boxed and displayed so they can see it all at once (prim heavy and lag inducing, but the buyer buys how they like, and the common consensus is display over vendor). But all it will take is a couple of exploiters to have me change the perms. That's how it works - someone gets greedy and milks a loophole, and pretty soon that loophole gets closed for everyone.

Think individually; act socially.

Cheers!
Gadget

Being a content creator myself (until a few updates ago, the system was completely borked for me, but I digress), I realize full well that if I decide to make something transferrable, it may be given as a gift or resold.

All designers have a choice to make things transferrable/no copy or no transfer/copy. (Let's not mention that infamous program which we are hopeful will be taken care of.) There is no use crying on your pillow if someone resells a few of your transferrable items because it is perfectly legal and ethical. Freebies and raw building materials (textures, etc) are of course the exception.

Some SL designers do not understand certain aspects of marketing (or they would not be bothering mom and pop resale shop owners) or they feel charging the price that the market will bear for their items is somehow ripping people off (everyone has a choice to buy or not). This is not your concern as a reseller.

And although it is true that virtual items do not degrade over time (usually!), there are many real life items that rise in price directly after they are purchased (limited edition items, mainly) and most items on SL are potentially limited edition (if the designer packs up and leaves SL, leaving only no-copy items behind).

The only case in which this is true is if the item is marked copy AND transfer. Otherwise, the original creator still owns the full copyright. You cannot make a copy of a transfer-only item (without certain unmentionable programs) so there is no way to violate the copyright in any way. Prince still owns the copyright on your copy of "Purple Rain" even though you sold it on eBay.

ALSO-- Prince doesn't have the legal right to come knocking on your door and tell you what price you can resell it for.

In Real Life it's called the doctrine of first sale. You may want to google it. Here's a snippet from wikipedia:

The doctrine of first sale allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e. sell or give away) a particular, lawfully made copy of the protected work without permission once it has been obtained. That means the distribution rights of a copyright holder end on that particular copy once the copy is sold.

That's just a snippet, it gets a lot more complicated where software is involved. Companies in real life have been shot down in court for issuing takedowns on ebay auctions of their products that are legally being resold by the person who purchased the product. In simplest terms, once you buy a product, you are free to use it how you like, the designer/manufacturer does not retain the right to control how the item is used.

This does vary for particular products.