Age Verification Answers

Another part of this whole thing that makes little sence.
LL asks if so and so is over 18 based on information supplied. A lot of teens lack any one of the IDs required. How then to verify that they are under 18? By receiving a no response from aristotle.
If that's the case, it doesn't matter if you submit info of a person who doesn't actually exist. It's easier to get that "not over 18" response than it is to get an "over 18" response with false data.

I wont bother repeating everything else I've said about it being a crap service that verifies nothing. Anyone thinking logically can see that.

Is there is a small chance it could be leaked out maybe? Or no? Well, I will decide later on if I want to risk it. I am not going to sit here and complain about it. I have nothing to hide when it comes down to it, but I am concerned about it being leaked or sold.

LL tries to do the right thing. A few bad apples spoiled the bunch, but don't take it out on LL. The process hasn't even started yet. Let's see what happens. If you don't feel comfortable with it when it starts, then just don't do it? Seems simple enough I guess.

I know this is probably not going to happen but what I would like to see is a place where teens and adults can meet on SL. I travel a lot and I use instant messaging with my kids while away. It would be great to be able to meet them inworld especially since voice is coming soon.

I used postcode 3250 which is sunny Colac and it was happy. As for Mr Page, maybe anyone with a 450 foot yacht gets a free pass?

And LL, you can pry my passport number from my cold, dead paw.

Extract from the http://integrity.aristotle.com website:

"PR Friendly.
Merchants are able to show federal, state and local authorities, public interest groups and concerned parents that they PR Friendly. Merchants are able to show federal, state and local authorities, public interest groups and concerned parents that they are progressively preventing minors from accessing restricted products, advertising and marketing materials."

Read that again, and again, and again.

Everyone on the grid is over 18. They assert so on signup.
The only reason to have age-verification of any sort is to address an issue where children/teens lie to get access.

So - EASY!!!!
Verify that every resident of SL is 18 or over. Problem solved (in terms of "show federal, state and local authorities, public interest groups and concerned parents that they are progressively preventing minors from ..." )
If those adult residents of SL don't want to view "adult" material in SL, then they simply don't go there. Why would you want to ban someone who is not interested in viewing your material? Insane!



But it's not that simple is it?
LL could apply age-verification to all residents, and that would have the effect apparently required.

By restricting the verification only to those who wish to access"adult" content, LL are clearly saying.
1) We are fully aware that minors are on the grid in violation of the TOS.
2) We do not intend to do anything about that.

END OF STORY! Linden Lab expressly DO NOT want to restrict the grid to over 18's.


Presumably they want as many signups as possible in order to
1) "shiny" the media with numbers
2) Stress-test the technology with as many simultaneous on-line users as the grid can possible bear.
S0: Unrestricted unverified signups are obviously intended to remain. Furthermore it is accepted by LL that some significant proportion of these will be minors.



The fact that any kid can spoof his/her parents' ID is irrelevant.
The fact that a European government is not going to hand over citizen data to a US (or any) commercial entity is irrelevant. Even if they did, the kids can still dip into the parents' desk.
Keeping kids off the grid is NOT the point of all of this. It's the *appearance* of trying to do so that matters.




In fact, all this island/parcel-banning and "what-is-adult" agonising is completely unnecessary.
We are ALL over 18 in here.
If we are not, then just kick the sub-18's off. Apply the TOS. Simple!




But, of course it's not THAT simple.
LL are engineering things so that they can keep sub-18's on the 'adult' grid. The want them, they think they need them.


If it's the case that the sub-18s are a major source of grief for residents, then the outcome of this "non-adult 18+" / "adult 18+" parallel wonderland is that such grief will now be concentrated on non-"adult" portions of the grid.

SO:
How would a far-right religious organisation with a presence in SL best protect itself from griefers?
Easy - Put an "adult-content" flag on its land



Simple questions to Lindens:
What is the deliverable intended to be?
Is it:
a) Impede access by minors to "adult" material in SL?
or
b) Impede access by adults to "adult" material in SL?

Right now, (b) is what you are planning.

Here's a little question. I've seen it said by a number of people posting in these threads that they have seen avatars who were obviously underage on the main grid.

OK, well assuming you can tell the difference between someone underage and an immature 19-year-old, have you ever seen a case of someone who was obviously or probably underage and also had payment on file?

Payment on file is already a check on age. I'd like to know what's wrong with it. The latest blog post says, "Credit cards do not provide an adequate means of age and identity verification, making real and robust age and identity verification vital." Well, the only foolproof means of verification is by personal interview, which is obviously not practical. So the issue is not what is perfect, but what is good enough.

Considering this is just a game, filing payment info should be perfectly adequate. This whole thing is hitting a rather small walnut with a very big hammer.

Merging of teen and adult grid?? With the new system will the teen grid be needed anymore? Just have a flag for teens that everyone over 18 is automatically muted.

So, We should stand by and do nothing while they implement a process and policy with which many people think is foolish, dangerous, and perhaps in some countries even illegal, and not do anything until they get it underway? And if its not comfortable, *then* make a fuss?

Thats a bit like getting on an aeroplane that looks like it might not hold up and see how it feels to crash and complain afterwards that you have a headache.. No thank you.

I personally feel this is a bad idea, for many reasons already outlined here in this forum and on the blog, and will not be verifying in this way. And I cannot, in all conscience, because I love SL, stand by and do nothing. There is a saying about that isnt there...

For evil to triumph, it is necessary only that good men stand by and do nothing.

Kind of a stupid question...I am an American citizen. I recently visited Rome and was shocked that the hotel requested my passport number; they actually photocopied the passport's relevant pages before handing it back to me. When I asked why (I've NEVER had an American, Japanese, Bahraini, Kuwaiti, or Hong Kong hotel request this) the employees said "it's for Interpol." (I'll point out that while in Rome I was staying merely as a GUEST of the person actually renting the room. Most foreign hotels actually do ask for a passport when I am the one paying for the room. Still disconcerting to be asked for my passport as a guest...)

Well that's fine and dandy. So if people are so willing to give up their passports to random strangers in hotels, why the big hullaballoo over SL asking for a passport number?

[Edit]
Ha ha I just had a funny thought. Why don't we start an open letter to Integrity, asking that it require all of ITS EMPLOYEES and the EMPLOYEES OF ITS AFFILIATES to enter all the same personal information for themselves into these databases? Might make them think twice about selling it/using it...

Should have come to the UK, we couldn't care less if you even have a passport as long as you're spending
Some places require passports to stay in hotels, some don't. It isn't common across all of europe.

I don't hold a passport, and if I did there is no way I would give the data to aristotle.
UK passports are now linked to certain biometric data such as iris scans and fingerprints. They are definately not there to "verify" age for a game.

I can absolutely see the need for passport information when you are travelling. This is a precedent practiced in most countries abroad; especially Southeast Asia whatwith terrorism being a very real aspect of our lives, but really...people, c'mon. That is REAL LIFE. This is what we have to deal with in our everyday lives, and I was hoping that SL...however retarded it sounds...could rescue ourselves from the onslaught of real life anxieties and at least provide us with a fun, safe, adult playground where we can act out our fantasies with OTHER likeminded individuals without the constant Big Eye looking down on us. As a world traveler in real life, yes; I'll happily give my peritinent info over, if only to really protect myself and others, and feel like I am doing my part as a global citizen...but I will say it again - Second Life is supposed to be a GAME. And if we, as adults, choose to play this game online, then we should be able to play in the relative obscurity that we were promised when we signed on. A major part of the allure in SL is the fact that we can truly expand our horizons, and open virtual businesses without all the bureaucratic BS red tape that we so often see in RL. Fantasy is what we're all here for, right? Since we, as Residents, don't know each other upon meeting (unless its mutually agreed upon) why should we be forced to relinquish information (and we already give out financial information, which is trackable) to a 3rd party who only has interest in who are in RL? They know us, but we don't know them? Sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it? Hmmmmm...

I'll point out something else that hasn't been raised in this thread (I don't think), but I know from conversations is already causing some concern.

It looks like LL are relying on informers to enforce this system. Anyone with any experience of life under totalitarian regimes will know exactly how dangerous and unpleasant this is. There are going to be a lot of people looking over their shoulders the whole time. Want to settle a grudge? AR your enemy for not flagging their property correctly.

This has the potential for really poisoning the atmosphere in SL.

maybe LL is just living up to its logo

I rarely respond to online forums but this would seem to warrant it. SL is a game,my cc details have been used in the subscription and I think that is enough. I too shred all post received with my address on it, heat up cc receipts so the info disappears. Am I paranoid, no I worry about identity theft and I will not provide part of any highly sought after number to an agency. I could get thousands of pounds in loans/ credit limits for less information.

If this is introduced then yes sl has been great,enjoyed every minute, but it is a game and I will find something to replace it. The saddest part would be loosing my friends that have been made through sl.
A lot of people do not appear aware of the proposal and those I have mentioned it to will stop rather than provide the details.

I think it will be a slippery slope to oblivion.

D

Ok, so I'm a real life private investigator working in the US. And when I saw this, my jaw dropped. When my company is hired by an insurance company (yes, we do only legal cases like this, no matrimonial stuff), we get certain info. Basically, address, DOB, and last four SSN. From that, we can find current residences, current phone numbers(and cell numbers), past residences for 10 years, vehicles owned (in some states), credit history, voting registration, THE REST OF THE SSN, and a whole plethora of other interesting info.
Now, for my job this is useful, because I'm tracking criminals. However, no way would I suggest providing this information for a GAME. As seen with the previous security breach, LL's security is not infalible, and alot of people who play this game, actively work to break it. The arguement has been made that LL won't be storing the info, but at some point, to confirm with Integrity, LL will have to have the info, and send the info. Those would be vulnerable times.
Underage people on the main grid is a major problem, but enforcement of current rules, and verification of payment info, would both reduce the problem. I'm a free account, but my account is verified via credit card. Should a hacker get that, they can max that credit card, sure, but they won't have my SSN. I can't believe LL thinks this an appropriate action. In the end, a kid who REEEEEEEEEALLY wants to see virtual boobs, will, no matter what measures are in place. Parents exist for a reason, and if they can't do their job, well, then, thats on them. LL can't possibly expect to put something like this in place, potentially putting 2 million users identities at risk.

I have decisions to make based on what LL are going to do about this issue Heretic, so please, PLEASE will you talk to **US** about your reactions to the posts here and in the main Linden Blog, and to the petitions and comments of many many residents of SL who are very concerned.

Thank you

According to this article:



Question is, is LL having us do the research for them on 3rd party companies they hire?

Nope, they're already snuggled up under the blankets with aristotle.
Like a fool in love, they wont here a bad word said about their new girlfriend

BTW, the point those states make persists across any service offered by aristotle to verify over the net. They could request a billion pieces of ID and the same basic flaw would still exists. They are verifying information rather than people.

...according to this article by Reuters...interesting, in light of comments from Linden Lab suggesting their contract with Integrity prevents data being passed onto their parent company Aristotle. I wonder if the thing about sharing information was an after-thought on LL's part after all the controversy kicked up by residents, and now they're trying to renegotiate the deal.

...but if a major reason for Integrity's existence is the data kickback for its parent company...

Hi all,

I've read every single post and i'm still not sure what to do if the age verification system is implemented in SL.

At first I thought it would be good because it gets kids out of SL, but then there was the whole issue about kids taking their parents ID's and stuff.

If the US government wants to know who uses SL so they can use that information for politics then I couldn't care less. I'm a user from europe (Belgium fyi) so it won't affect me since i can't vote in the US . But for the people living in the US: why should that be a problem? So what if you get a flyer from a politician now and then? Throw it away and go on playing SL. They are not going to come to you and ask why you didn't vote for them at the last election...

Going on: Many of the concerns are good. But if you don't want to register, then don't and deal with the fact that you won't be able to have or see sex in SL. I think many people will register because they like (even love) SL so much they don't care if some company has their data. LL said that verification is optional!

Ok, it's a risk for identity theft but I think that people who want to steal an identity from someone knows what to do even if you aren't registered thro SL. They can probably get the information elsewhere.

Futhermore, LL is indeed probably trying to take their hands of of what people do, buy and make in SL. Why shouldn't they? It's not their responsability. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

I think that there is going to be a serious change if the system is implemented.
At first there will be a downfall on residents but people who love this game (and yes i too think it's a game) will, in the end, break and give the necessery information.

Second, maybe the people who at first didn't want to give the information and got cut off will probably come back after hearing from others that it's all the good.

And third and maybe the most important thing of all: there will probably be more seriously interested people playing SL. I've been in SL for a couple of months and i've already seen lots of people who come to SL just because they are curious.

I also understand all the people who don't want to give their information. You shouldn't do it just like that, but think about it. Can LL really afford to lose millions of dollars if there goes something wrong with the system? People will sue LL and Aristotle. Given the number of users in SL, that will be for billions of dollars, IF there goes something wrong. Some of us think we're dealing with idiots

One last thing. We don't even know what we will have to give for the ID check. The SS# is optional for people from the US. Optional, they may not use that. I think LL doesn't know what to do yet.

I hope you all register for ID verification because SL is fun and I'd be sad to see some good friends leave because they are sceptical or paranoid or anything.

See you!
Camden Juran

As the current path to age/identity verification of accounts is a response to the recent incident of a resident uploading images of child pornography (Accusations Regarding Child Pornography in Second Life) wouldn't it be prudent (because free accounts can decline verification) to restrict non-verified/free accounts from uploading images/textures into SL? (Note that by placing a restriction on non-verified, free accounts this might create an incentive for them to upgrade.)

I am rapidly losing all faith in LL to do anything right.
I can see them doing this sort of thing.

Verification is planned solely for people who want access content that is extreme violence and pornography.
If such a restriction were imposed, then as an example, an artist wanting to upload a watercolour would have to go through a process which while yet undefined, implies that they are signing up specifically to access extreme violence and sex.

At the other end of the scale, a paedophile could create a verified account and upload anything. The 'anything' could then be freely distributed around SL.
Verification does not verify identity, it verifies information. "Simple two-minute procedure"!
In any case, whereas the *minority* of SL residents who live in the USA might have to live with an unbelievably lax privacy regime, it will not be as easy to attempt automated verification for the majority of users.
Identity theft is not uncommon. A bad actor will simply use someone else's identity.



There are two totally separate issues being mixed up in this pot.
1) Access by minors to the 18+ SL grid
2) Presence of material on SL that is illegal in some or all jurisdictions.

Any measures that attempt to address these two issues as a unit will fail.

The only reason why I pointed that out was due to this story:
German Prosecutors Pursue Child Porn in 'Second Life'
which contained this paragraph:
And Robin does state in her blog post, Accusations of Child Pornography within Second Life:
As Linden Lab doesn't have the manpower to review every image uploaded into their servers it might help them with their current damage control campaign to limit non-verified accounts from uploading images.

Just a quick FYI:

Sys Slade and I are setting up a poll station that will register a touch-click as a vote (much like the open letter) registering a protest against the use of private numbers like Social Security or Passport numbers for verification purposes.

More info as it comes.