Age Verification Answers

It would be fun to compare how easy it is to verify using false information vs. how difficult it is for some people to get legitimate verification.

Just to add to the ease of false usage column, say hello to Mr George Bush, zip code 20500

I was going to start a new thread but that would be silly so...

I come into SL's main grid which is for over 18s only and infront of me are three sims.

The first sim is PG, is not for children because its still on an over 18 grid but it is an area where people can expect that their sensibilities won't be offended. A family friendly sim without the kids if you will. No problems here.

The second sim is mature, now I'm kinda sketchy about what I can do here that I can't do in PG since now there is the "adult" tag covering pretty much everything I would have normally put here (violence, sex, foul language). Is this like a 15 cert film in the UK? I can flash boobs maybe say sh*t once or twice, indulge in adventures featuring "mild peril", I can shoot someone so long as they don't bleed? Again this sim is restricted to over 18s by virtue of being on an over 18 grid.

The third and final sim is rated adult, where apparently Bacchus himself would balk at the activities going on. Severed heads and orgies with all species are the order of the day it seems but there's also people dancing in their underwear, looking rather timid and tame. In order to get here I have to prove I am over 18 but, a voice inquires, "shouldn't you have done that upon entering an over 18 grid anyway?"

I am just baffled by the way this is being used. I agree it is needed (maybe not with how LL are going about it but still) but surely the PG areas are to allow people the chance to avoid the mature/graphic side of things in SL. Isn't the mature category a little redundant after all of this?

I'm not saying I know everything so don;t burn me to a crisp. I'm just genuinely curious how LL can justify age verification for access to a portion of a grid that is entirely 18 plus anyway.

I verified myself at bud-tv using my SL name, a random birthdate close to my own and a nearby Australian (four digit) postcode. Its certainly not checking any Australian databases for verification!

In fact I very much doubt it could, our electoral roll and drivers licence databases are not publicly accessible and are protected by privacy laws. I think Aristotle tells a big lie if its 150 countries it can supposedly verify in is meant to include Australia.

I expect this to be a first step towards verifying everybody on the Main Grid, while unverifieds will get an unspecified 'grace time' in PG and Mature areas. LL probably thinks they will keep more residents that way: people who might leave in an instant if they had to verify for the whole Grid may now stay on as long as they don't have to verify for some areas. Some of those will get bored with the restrictions and verify of their own volition to regain access to the whole thing. As for the people content with staying on the PG and Mature territories, LL is probably banking on them being thoroughly hooked by the time they get around to demanding verification of everybody on the Main Grid, so a lot of those may chose to verify after all.

Of course, my train of thought here has absolutely no ground in anything LL has said about verification so far, but then again: LL is being notoriously vague, so my guess is as good as any.

I thought I saw Kafka Linden scuttling about recently......

me too (UK).

some verification system huh?

Gillian, let me know when you find a habit. Can I be your cross-dressing-nun-sidekick?

I do think I erred in my Bud.TV experiment. I didn't mean to imply that SL's age verification would be exactly like that, but apparently several people have taken it that way. I am, however, curious as to why Anheuser-Busch is approving users with clearly bogus info, as has been determined by other's experiments here. I certainly hope SL's will be more rigorous, and it does sound like it is intended to be. We won't know for sure until more information is released from LL.

I'm gonna bail on this thread for the most part. I'll be working overtime this week on other more pressing things. I do hope others can find more information and post here or somewhere easy to find.

I do hope SL users upset about the new age verification will keep in mind one thing: SL users have been screaming very loudly for it, regardless what we think the other "reasons" are for LL implementing it now.

Sorry to double post but - this is an important issue and its been fragmented between threads.

Its not about porn or sex or content or who sees it or the safety or the children
(for god sakes will someone please think of the children!)

Its a database grab - can you imagine how lovely a captive verified ID database would be in LL's eyes- think of all the $$ you could milk out of it.

Remeber its Age and IDENTITY verification.

Ever since tge Ageplay/Gambling affair, through Sheepbot to this. It's pimping for the Corporate money, perhaps with an eye to sell out totally to one of them.

its quite possible they haven't gone to become verified for anything online, most especially a website.

you have to show up, with that information, it is NOT enough to put it on a webform anonymously.

Don't worry, the lobbies will get to you too, they're well funded. If you offer anything adult to Germany for example, you will be subjected to this system or you may find yourself sued. As LL is probably already finding out, and why we're getting this system.

since I'm not believed this exists -

http://www.deutschepost.de/dpag?lang=de_EN&xmlFile=877

and a refresher of what this means

-

Up to now, POSTIDENT has only been offered in Germany. Foreign companies and institutions may use POSTIDENT identification services in the German marketplace. However, identification using POSTIDENT is not possible in foreign countries.

- this means people from Germany may not be able to ever verify for adult content in SL. I have no idea if this system from Aristotle will be accepted there, the way it looks so far, may not be.

additional

ID Verify is the system in Austria.
Post-Ident is also available in Switzerland.

..

and the recent court decisions require you show up to be identified, for adult content. You can already see what is afoot in the news.

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,481467,00.html

I'm sorry to bear bad tidings, but... this is the way it's starting to go on the continent.

* NEVEREVERNEVER give any part of your SoSec or SoFi or similar number. You may regret you ever did next time you want to qualify for a discount at your insurance company or apply for a mortgage.

* The company doing the verifying may seem okay, but what exactly do you know about its employees? No doubt they have employees coming and going like any other company. One of them could very well give him/herself an early birthday present - on your expense!

* One of my creditcard companies replaced my creditcard twice since the 'mishap' at Linden Lab. With all the missery that comes with it.

* Verification based on drivers license gives employees of the verifying company easy access to a whole load of personal information, and even more when combined with info from other sources. Information that is valuable to other companies. It happens way too often that an employee tries to make money with that information - YOUR information!

* Sure, your identity needs to be verified for important matters. But you can't be careful enough about when and how and to whom you give such info. Is getting access to a bunch of pictures worth it? You wouldn't think about giving any info to a website with the promise of some nudie pictures, would you?

* Think this is exaggerated? Then ask yourself how come Identity Theft Insurance is such a big business.

* It doesn't even keep minors out of SL, nor does it keep them from getting access to adult contents. Think of the Native Americans sitting on horseback on the hills surrounding the racetrack in Phoenix, AZ. If your eyes are good enough, you don't need a ticket. Actually, those who are verified to be of age, are most likely minors. Think of the 13 yo at bars, all with an ID stating they're 21+. I expect most adults to not even bother getting verified, given the risks. So if you see someone who's profile says he's got his age verified, you can safely assume he's a minor.

* The argument that Bud uses this same service and therefore the service must be good, is balonie. Bud's only reason is to cover its own behind, legally. Or is that the true reason why LL made this suggestion? As in: "we don't really care how many minors are running around in SL, as long as we're not responsible."

Draw you're own conclusion here, after all, it's "Your World, Your Imagination" - soon to be changed to: "Your Identity, Your Risk"

There is no way on this earth I am giving my passport number out to any 3rd party (or 1st party for that matter) over the internet...

In the UK you can hold a provisional driving license at the age of 17 which will have the same basic coding as a full license - but that is a moot point, what about someone over 18 in the UK who does not have a driving license or a passport?

Now I am all for protecting minors from accessing "mature" material on the internet but there has to be a better way of verifying age than this. I simply refuse to supply anything more than my date of birth and postcode and if more than that is required I shall be leaving SL, and taking my businesses down, for good.

Asking for passport and driving license numbers in an age where identity fraud is rife is not going to win support from me. Heck, I shred every peice of paper in my house that has so much as my address on it before it goes into the recycling bin.

LL please consider the quetions and concerns that have been posed by so many here before proceeding with your plans.

Thank you for all of your questions and comments. I will direct your feedback to the appropriate parties. Keep talking to us.

quite. banks require so many forms of id since a couple of years ago that it's very difficult to open an account. but copies of driving license, passport and one utility bill are not acceptable. they have to be originals. and they prefer you take yourself along to the bank with those documents and if you're shifty enough they might ask for a mugshot while you're there.

as for ID cards? wtf are they? =P we've been spoilt over here haven't we?

producing these documents to a bank or the authorities is one thing, but to a company like Aristotle? forget it.

I can think of several ways of "verifying" age for accounts rather than using a SS Number or the like. Let's think about this for a few...I have been in SL now 2 yrs in June. I have bought and sold Lindens with my CC. I have already provided LL with my real name, address, dob, phone, and email. I have sustained a business in SL over a year now, as well as great customer service. The times that I am on SL, reflect that I am not a minor, because most minors would be in school at the times I am online, not to mention the lengths that I am on, and the locations I frequent in SL. I have participated in forum discussions. I have bought/rented/and sold land inside SL dealing straight - forward with other avatars or people. I have never been AR'd by any other resident, or reprimanded by LL.
How much more do they need? And why our SS Numbers? Hell, we dont even give our ISP's our SS Numbers, and they give us complete access to the entire internet!

I dont think we need anymore verification of anything, we just need LL to get off their rumps and get back on the grid and help untangle this mess they created. LL, you thought free unverified accounts were your meal ticket...turns out you were wrong.

Name, DOB, address should be all that is required for verification from any public database. If there is a no match, then ask for more information...possibly by snail mail.

I can't think of any reason to part with the last 4 numbers of my ssn...which is often used to provide proof of my identity with the bank, credit card companies, utilities.

And I can't believe as a premium member of almost 3 years, I'll be treated as an unverified if I don't provide my last 4 numbers of my ssn!

Why is age 30 specified as the less specific age that might be shown in a person's profile?

I just tried to have the verification in the Bud page, it didnt recognize my zip code (I'm not in the US) and simply rejected me.
As it has been said many times, most of the residents in SL are not residents of the US, so how are they going to verify us? Let's say I would be willing to give all the information they want (which I really dont want to provide), I give out my passport number, my national ID number, my address, even my mortage number... who will tell them that I really am who I claim I am? who will tell them I'm over 21 or 12??? Do they have any contact within every goverment in the world? Because I dont see my goverment having employees giving out this information so I can play a game in internet.

Now, I own 2 islands, both will have to be flagged as adult as 1 is a rental place (and I suppose my tenants will have at least sex balls in their homes) and the other is a mall.. its supposed to be free of explicit sexual merchandise, but I know that at least one of the shop keepers has a penis attachment boxed in his store (no pictures in the box, but still is a sexual object). So, what will happen if what just happened in the bud page happens also in SL? will I have to be banned from my business places? Or will I have to tell my tenants they have to watch tv and pray the rosary every night at their homes so I dont have to flag the islands as adult?

They're making ME responsible for flagging when you have adult things in your land, so if I dont want to have problems, I will have to flag everything in fear of a tenant or a shopkeeper taking out something as common as a bed (we have furniture stroes in the mall, and obviously they have sex animations in them).

How are people from other countries going to be verified and what will happen if they cant be verified as my just failed verification experience???
Lindens are telling us to come to the forums to ask all this questions, they dont want us to post in the blog, will they answer to us here?

Please dont flame, I'm making real questions, I need to know what are we supposed to do.
I think many people from other countries will have the same doubts I have.

I really think there's no point in going overboard in trying to flag anything "adult" on the slightest grounds. It's absurd to flag a whole island as "adult" because there might be a sex poseball somewhere in it. Poseballs are not exactly porn, anyway.

Likewise, it's absurd to flag a whole mall because someone has a penis in a box. Believe it or not, many minors do actually possess penises themselves. You would have to ban them from their own presence.

depends on the genitals. if they are the crude rude woodie types, or essentially an interactive sex toy like the various ultra adult varieties, then probably yeah.

if the genitals have options to be non-explicit (this means NOT erect) and are only controllable by the owner (this means they don't go on explicit chat sprees and sport wood when anyone touches them), than probably no. A prim penis in its flaccid form is not explicitly adult, its just nudity. As they say, its how you use it

as for your residential tenants, you can pass the buck to them just like LL passed it to you. They are responsible for what they rez on their land. I wouldnt be too worried about pose balls, if they kept them under lock and key. Its having adult content open access to everyone that gets someone in trouble. If its protected by ban lines or a security orb, or if the pose balls can only be rezzed by members of a land group, well... nobody is able to use them other than who is allowed in, and therefore the content is protected from general public use.

Actually, everyone is responsible for what they rez, anywhere. Be it your land or not. That part hasn't changed.

stores selling adult animations, well.. that needs the adult flag most certainly. But this can be set per parcel - some creative land cutting may simply be in order to flag some areas adult and some not.

I fail the bud page too, I have the same worries about verification as you do - I can verify by showing my passport, my worry is if the system will let me.

Wait a minute...isn't SL supposed to be a GAME? Isn't that what is always stressed when people first come on board here? Isn't anyone here familiar with VIDEO GAMES these days? Some of them are horrifically violent and graphically sexual, but it seems like no ones trying to police them...in fact, they seem to be todays worldwide babysitter, which, may be the answer to why so many kids are experiencing loneliness and isolation - because there is NO PARENTING going on, and it is a totally one-sided experience!
SL at the onset seemed to be radically different, in that not only is it democratic, but it seemed to champion everyones freedom of rights - in this world, you get to do what you want, when you want, as long as you don't piss anyone else off, because if you do, you get ejected. Now that seemed perfectly logical and fair - the end truly justifying the means. In essence, a very Utopian way of thinking. Today, as I read this blog about Identity Verification, I cringe. And I am outraged!! Amazon.com doesn't even ask me for my SS#, and I have every right to buy pornography online if I want. If this is indeed supposed to be a GAME, then why all the hullabaloo? With the advent of identity theft, and privacy issues proliferating, I would think that SL would be able to come up with a better plan of action.
Think on this: What you are proposing actually ENCOURAGES the group of people (i.e. pedophiles, sexual deviants, predators etc.) to prey on that part of SL that would be considered at risk. Imagine...if the pedophiles don't want to register (and they won't) then they will be forced to find other ways to "get off", i.e., they will most likely find a way onto Teen SL...a place where we, as consenting, law-abiding adults in SL, DO NOT want them to be.
You are asking the majority of SL residents to give up their identity and privacy just so you can deflect litigation down the road. I agree, to a certain extent, that there may be a need to legally separate the "men from the boys" so to speak, but this is not the way. I think we all agree here that we, as Residents are forced to provide a credit card for authorization when we want to buy stuff - that should be enough! Believe me, it's not easy to move around in SL (or go to those fancy sex shops) without cash. And most kids don't have access to CC's; unless of course, they're stealing Mom's ID without her knowing. But is there any real way to police that in a virtual society?? It's hard enough to do that in RL. If you are truly a virtual realm, then there needs to be a different way of implementing policy here without haranguing and hectoring your paying virtual community. Paypal has all my pertinent information; I use it in SL, and that should be proof enoguh for SL that I am a consenting adult of age and free to roam as I wish.
Additionally, I would HOPE that LL has the sense to come to its residents for ideas and perhaps create a virtual forum on this matter. Since it has been stressed that we, as Residents, are the landowners and that we are all personally accountable and responsible for this Life, I propose that you, Linden labs, do the following:
1) Create a thinktank, and appoint a committee to figure out a way to enact policy here without subjugating their residents.
2) Offer up a plan of action and then HAVE ITS RESIDENTS VOTE ON IT!! Since SL is run and built by its residents, don't we have a say in the matter?
3) DON'T make it so easy for a kid to come online into SL. As some mature adult websites have a standard disclaimer before entering, maybe post that BEFORE you log on, make them accept the terms of responsibility and then you can dodge the legality issues later on.
4) The residents who are ALREADY here on SL should be inviolate. I'm assuming that the reason why all this is happening is because there has been a sudden proliferation of residents coming on line, and LL needs to be ready with the legal arsenal. I am all for that, but why make all of us suffer because of a lack of preparedness on LL's part?
I got into SL to have fun. No, I'm not a sex freak, nor am I on for vigilanteism. I'm just a working, adult woman who enjoys travelling SL, creating a business, making some money and finding friends. But, nope, sorry - I'm not gonna give up my RL identity just so I can have fun. I might as well go ahead and post my SS# on the internet and say "ok, boys, have fun too!"
The other issue here has definitely darker undertones. Because the "3rd Party" you refer to as information holders is none other than Big Brother, and this can be construed as yet another way the feds have to look over your shoulder. I can see that that utulizing their "services" would scare off a large part of your community, since a lot of the people I've encountered here seem to be quite savvy in things like this. Virtual Federales? Nah, now THAT'S a little too real for me...
Anyway, I do hope you will reflect on this and all the other posts here. Please remember that since we, as Residents, are paying for our time here, we SHOULD and NEED to be a part of the decision making in SL.
I stress that I do enjoy SL, and would like to keep it that way. Anonymity and the freedom to express yourself is a HUGE part of it.
My apologies for the long post, guys....

Every adult in SL will have that right (you just need to verify that you are an adult).



If you go back and read the LL blog posts, you will be happy to find that all residents of the Teen Grid will be required to be age-verified. So if the perverts from your example don't want to register, SL's teens are safe!



Well, it's their company...if they're right about all this, they may have saved SL from being banished from the mainstream of society, and they may have saved themselves from financial catastrophe due to lawsuits; if they're as wrong about this as many people (not just you) are suggesting, they'll lose money and go out of business as everyone quits. (BTW, apparently some of our fellow Residents are perverts. Who knew?)



There has lately been a big bruhaha in Germany, where government authorities have discovered child porn in SL. One of SL's responses to the crises there was to assure authorities that they would implement age verification. (Did you know that recently the press has reported the number of Residents logging on from Germany has surpassed the number logging on from the USA?)