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My Christmas Gift to those that want to own Land

HolyHell Cassell
Registered User
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 166
12-25-2006 18:20
Merry Christmas everyone!

In the spirit of giving, and as a former land buyer in the mainland, allow me to impart some wisdom on the new people struggling to buy land this time of year -

Don't .


When I first came into SL, the prices were considerably lower than the land shortage has forced them to now. There are probably 3-4x the number of people calling themselves "real estate agents" in the game. Land is a game. Prices are dictated by the willingness of those that dont have it to pay as much as the market will bear. And right now, the market is squarely in the hands of the owners at the moment. The good news, is that things change. Sometimes very rapidly. So you want a little plot of land for your very own and don't care that its 7,500 or higher... for the same land that just two to three months ago or so, was selling for 3,000L, and lower. Wait. just a little bit.

The longer these agents are forced to sit with this tier on their wallets, and not turning massive profits off your hard earned money, the lower the prices will go. Ive seen it.
Be patient awhile. The island rush is over, more resources will come on line. Even first lands are showing up more frequently than they have in a couple months now. The market is about to turn into the buyer's favor again. Save your money for now. Trust me, you will be so happy you did.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good buy.

~HH~
Sue Han
Registered User
Join date: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 10
12-25-2006 20:01
And what was your question?

This is a residents question and answer forum.
HolyHell Cassell
Registered User
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 166
12-25-2006 20:59
From: Sue Han
And what was your question?

This is a residents question and answer forum.


It was an answer, on how to fight high land prices. I didnt need a question.
Gordon Wendt
404 - User not found
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 1,024
12-25-2006 21:04
From: HolyHell Cassell
It was an answer, on how to fight high land prices. I didnt need a question.


Good answer
FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
12-25-2006 21:08
while I appreciate the advise it was about month late. lol
one thing I don't get is why does sometimes do the mods allow statements and opinions while other times and certain indivuals namely us newbies they close the thread if we don't ask a question?
Dread Albion
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 1
12-26-2006 05:19
Your Christmas Gift really should say: Don't rent or buy from the creator of this thread!

When you were a land swooper you were one of the worst for overcharging and ripping off noobs. Now that you own islands and rent parcels out on them, you violate forum rules and post crap like this to try to convince people not to buy land. You know full well they'll still want land, and will presumably rent island land instead. Hopefully from you, right? Talk about self serving. Let's just hope you don't rip them off like you did my friend Naomi and kick them off their land for no reason and keep their money!
Conan Godwin
In ur base kilin ur d00ds
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 3,676
12-26-2006 05:25
From: HolyHell Cassell
Merry Christmas everyone!

In the spirit of giving, and as a former land buyer in the mainland, allow me to impart some wisdom on the new people struggling to buy land this time of year -

Don't .


When I first came into SL, the prices were considerably lower than the land shortage has forced them to now. There are probably 3-4x the number of people calling themselves "real estate agents" in the game. Land is a game. Prices are dictated by the willingness of those that dont have it to pay as much as the market will bear. And right now, the market is squarely in the hands of the owners at the moment. The good news, is that things change. Sometimes very rapidly. So you want a little plot of land for your very own and don't care that its 7,500 or higher... for the same land that just two to three months ago or so, was selling for 3,000L, and lower. Wait. just a little bit.

The longer these agents are forced to sit with this tier on their wallets, and not turning massive profits off your hard earned money, the lower the prices will go. Ive seen it.
Be patient awhile. The island rush is over, more resources will come on line. Even first lands are showing up more frequently than they have in a couple months now. The market is about to turn into the buyer's favor again. Save your money for now. Trust me, you will be so happy you did.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good buy.

~HH~


Certainly if you are planning to buy as an investment then this is good advice, as prices are too high for land to be a profitable investment just now. However, if, like me, all you want is a place to hang your hat, don't be put off entirely. Wait until you find something that you are happy with, because moving will be expensive if prices drop after you've shelled out for it, but once you find something you like then don't be scared to buy it - afterall, what do you care if you lose equity in it if you're not planning to re-sell it?
HolyHell Cassell
Registered User
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 166
12-26-2006 05:30
From: Dread Albion
Your Christmas Gift really should say: Don't rent or buy from the creator of this thread!

When you were a land swooper you were one of the worst for overcharging and ripping off noobs. Now that you own islands and rent parcels out on them, you violate forum rules and post crap like this to try to convince people not to buy land. You know full well they'll still want land, and will presumably rent island land instead. Hopefully from you, right? Talk about self serving. Let's just hope you don't rip them off like you did my friend Naomi and kick them off their land for no reason and keep their money!


I think you have the wrong person Dread. I've never rented to anyone named Naomi, nor did I overcharge for *any* plot I sold while I was on the mainland. As a matter of fact, my prices were ALWAYS lower than anyone (with the exception of another person, who I cant name due to forum rules), and 99.99% of the time my plots sold to other realtors before they were ever seen by the general public.

I dont believe my post was a violation of any forum rules, unlike yours which serves no purpose other than to wrongly accuse someone of doing something like that. In all the months I've owned my islands, (which are rentals only, so no money other than the agreed rental prices were kept, ), I've only had to evict two people for non payment of rent (and neither was named Naomi). So, please. Make sure you have the right person before you go slandering their good name. And I thank you in advance.

And I'm not trying to convince people not to buy land. Im merely suggesting they wait out the market price spike thats going on now a bit, and watch the prices come more into a realistic line of reason. Paying US$ 35 for a 512 plot is crazy.

(and No, I don't hope they rent land from me. My plots are full and have been since 2-3 days after I owned the islands, so again, no, no self serving interest in this post.)
Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
12-26-2006 07:29
From: HolyHell Cassell
Merry Christmas everyone!

In the spirit of giving, and as a former land buyer in the mainland, allow me to impart some wisdom on the new people struggling to buy land this time of year -

Don't .


When I first came into SL, the prices were considerably lower than the land shortage has forced them to now. There are probably 3-4x the number of people calling themselves "real estate agents" in the game. Land is a game. Prices are dictated by the willingness of those that dont have it to pay as much as the market will bear. And right now, the market is squarely in the hands of the owners at the moment. The good news, is that things change. Sometimes very rapidly. So you want a little plot of land for your very own and don't care that its 7,500 or higher... for the same land that just two to three months ago or so, was selling for 3,000L, and lower. Wait. just a little bit.

The longer these agents are forced to sit with this tier on their wallets, and not turning massive profits off your hard earned money, the lower the prices will go. Ive seen it.
Be patient awhile. The island rush is over, more resources will come on line. Even first lands are showing up more frequently than they have in a couple months now. The market is about to turn into the buyer's favor again. Save your money for now. Trust me, you will be so happy you did.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good buy.

~HH~


Does that explain why you were offering people who'd just bought first land 6000L on the spot, 2 days ago?
_____________________
HolyHell Cassell
Registered User
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 166
12-26-2006 11:27
From: Stephen Zenith
Does that explain why you were offering people who'd just bought first land 6000L on the spot, 2 days ago?


Nope. I wanted a roadside plot for my little 512 free tier, and I mistakenly thought that the area I was in had a roadside. It was never my intent to resell that plot
Foo Spark
alias Bathsheba Dorn
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 110
12-26-2006 15:37
From: FD Spark
while I appreciate the advise it was about month late. lol
one thing I don't get is why does sometimes do the mods allow statements and opinions while other times and certain indivuals namely us newbies they close the thread if we don't ask a question?

It can be even more fun than that: my main account was perma-banned, as a newbie, from this forum for posting a non-question. I don't even have read privileges with that account, that's why I post using this alt.
cinda Hoodoo
my 2cents worth
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 951
Why are land prices so high ???
12-26-2006 15:57
See question above ^

Example: plot across from our mall in the same sim, was sold recently to one land shark he marked it as 4096 or so for $49K then a few days ago he sold it to another land shark who now has it marked for $78K or so, he has however subdivided it into 2 plots...he has obnoxiously set out huge spinning for sale blocks as close to the edge of the land so i assume it would "tempt" us into buying, as im laffing my ass off, there is no way in hell id buy land at that price, unless i just look stupid or something, i would assume the last land shark told the current land shark that we were just dying to get the land..so laffing once again, not only are they intent on running land prices up, they are busy not only screwing the general population of SL but each other too.

SO in all reality, just keep paying these prices and they will stay high, refuse to buy and they get stuck like chuck with some hefty tier fees, and the prices will start to come down.
Shippou Oud
The Fox Within
Join date: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 141
12-26-2006 17:54
Land prices, like every thing else, is dictated by suply and demand. Since there is a massive influx of residence, who wana own land, the prices sky rocket. Just liek in RL if more people wana buy gold bars, the prices will rise.....now if the lindens release a lot of new Mainland sims, the land prices will fall.
The "advice" you just gave is very unsound,unlogical, and hasn't happened befor making it apear like you have not dabbled in the land game too much.
Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
Assume away people
12-26-2006 18:01
Land barrons are not happy about this massive increase. But most of us arn't buying the land and marking it up massive amounts. It's not that simple, and if you think it is then you really have no understanding of economics. Due to the lack of new land being realeased and the new larger population thats wants land, we are buying at higher prices. We mark up a small percentage (most of us) and just try to stay afloat and regulate the current market. The exact same thing Holly did to finance her islands. If you can't afford land then fine don't buy it. But if your looking for a place to place blame, Look to LL and lack of new first land and full sim auctions on a regular basis to meet the population needs. Yes land prices will go down but only when we have enough land to go around. Until then, your wasting your breath and looking to the wrong people to place blame on. I'm just going to do what I have always done, regulate the market and adapt to whatever happens with the prices. The only thing I can do.
Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
12-26-2006 22:48
I know this time of year can be stressful, but I don't think this thread warrants action. This thread was posted with the intent of being helpful, which is one of my criteria for moderating this forum. The advice is pretty sound IMHO, though it doesn't help the situation that some people's businesses depend on land sales. It's a sucky situation on both sides, it is stressful.

From: FD Spark
one thing I don't get is why does sometimes do the mods allow statements and opinions while other times and certain individuals namely us newbies they close the thread if we don't ask a question?


1) We can be slow. We have lives besides the forums (and I've had family over and they have been driving me *nuts*)
2) I don't read every thread and some threads I don't want to read... but i usually force myself to scan them.
3) I don't read the AR's every day.
4) You have to break one of the big rules in the RA forums to get hit hard by LR. Most people don't have a problem with that once they read the rules. SL attracts people form all walks of life, and when they are new to the forum they don't know the rules (though they usually think they do). I wish there was a better way to get people to read and understand the rules before they find out the hard way. The new uses tend not to have figured how to game the rules; it's really tough at this end.
5) The RA forum is really difficult to moderate. The tools i have to work with are pretty blunt & heavy, and LR's tend to be very sharp.

If you do AR a thread, the thread will be reviewed but it may take a few days. A well written AR has the potential to sway a mod into action when the mod may have been on the fence.

Being a ResMod is like being a rodeo clown, it's dangerous but necessary, not to mention some people just hate clowns.

Foo: I'm sorry you had your main account banned (though i don't know who your main account is). Discussion of bans is general against the rules in the open forums but if you PM your account name I'll look into persuading LR into restoring privileges (no promises). As a general warning, if you show up on the radar at this point with your alt account (as in break the forum rules), LR will consider it Alt-Abuse (I've taken a brief look at your current posting habits and they seem decent so i don't think you will have any problems). Really-Off-Topic: your art is quite impressive, i may just buy some ^^.
_____________________
Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey
Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
12-27-2006 04:51
There are a number of components to the current land situation.. supply and demand is a big one.. but there are assuredly people out there taking advantage of it for their own benefit, and that behavior is what is driving the prices right now more than the S&D issue. There is a substantial movement going on out there where more experienced residents have been land grabbing, and taking advantage of new residents by grossly inflating the sale price, and then sweet talking them into believing that the "offer" is a screaming deal.. and they bite. I've had people admit this to me. Mentors even. Yes there are natural economic components at play here, but there is also deceiptful human behavior going on as well, and I think this movement is bigger than people seem to realize.

The bottom line is definately - Don't buy. -

The market is spoiled at the moment, and the only way the trend is going to stop is if people, especially new residents, become informed enough about the issues to make more sensible purchase decisions. Right now, the charlatans are in control.

zk
Gummi Richthofen
Fetish's Frasier Crane!
Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 605
12-27-2006 06:14
I live in RL in a location where people have been saying that the house price bubble "must" burst for the last three straight years. Recently, the boost in values around me has come from a completely unexpected quarter - Russians, who will buy anything they can find, with cash, right now. I know people whose daily life is working in commercial property lending, who sold all their privately-owned housing threee years ago, when "it couldn't possibly go any higher" and who are now feeling just a tad sick, for not holding on longer...

...what I am saying is, there's RL precedents for this behaviour. Notably, a strong driver seems to be when influxes of immigrants take place - and guess what's happened to SL lately. Also notably, the behaviour of a large group of individuals seems to always - and that's ALWAYS - disadvantage any one individual.

Personally, I look upon pretty much everything in this thread as speculators, posturing. Otherwise someone would have raised interesting questions about how LL can affect this situation, or what they gain by it. Should they:

a) define tier charges based on the land value?

b) increase the number of prims on smaller parcels so starters can do more, with less?

c) make more land, as the simpler demands suggest?

d) or what?

Me, I am speculating gently. I just want to know what happens to the adjacent parcels around mine that are marked as "maintenance"...
HolyHell Cassell
Registered User
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 166
12-27-2006 06:40
From: Sarah Nerd
Land barrons are not happy about this massive increase. But most of us arn't buying the land and marking it up massive amounts. It's not that simple, and if you think it is then you really have no understanding of economics. Due to the lack of new land being realeased and the new larger population thats wants land, we are buying at higher prices. We mark up a small percentage (most of us) and just try to stay afloat and regulate the current market. The exact same thing Holly did to finance her islands. If you can't afford land then fine don't buy it. But if your looking for a place to place blame, Look to LL and lack of new first land and full sim auctions on a regular basis to meet the population needs. Yes land prices will go down but only when we have enough land to go around. Until then, your wasting your breath and looking to the wrong people to place blame on. I'm just going to do what I have always done, regulate the market and adapt to whatever happens with the prices. The only thing I can do.


I totally agree Sarah, and now that you've posted in here, I can say, that Sarah was the person that always kept her land pricing reasonable and sometimes even below mine. I hold no malice towards those that want to make money in the land game. I did it and did quite well at it. My complaint isnt with those that do the modest markups. Supply and demand definately plays a strong role in dictating the market swings. My complaint is mostly centered on the severe lack of land thats being produced in comparison to the shere numbers of new people coming on board , and those that take blatant advantage of newer players. Linden Labs could fix this situation easily by releasing a ton of land fast, but when they are getting $2500+ for full sims where they were getting maybe $1500 a couple months ago, they arent so inclined to do that. Why should they. If people continue to pay such outrageous prices for the same product, there's absolutely no reason LL should release more land to help fight higher prices.

Anyhoo, my advice is sound. Wait. Prices cannot stay at this level long. People will wake up and realize that paying sometimes nearly US $300 for an 8192 plot is totally insane.

I do wish those that are in the market, and the honest few that are out there luck in these times. For the dispicable few that prey on newer players for their profits, I hope ya eat a big tier bill :)

Happy Holidays !! ~HH~
Checho Masukami
UnRez it or use a hammer
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 191
12-27-2006 09:25
There is something maybe I don't understand.
I heard that there are at least two persons creating new accounts, upgrading to premium, buying a First Land, selling it for more than L$7000, passing that money to their first account and downgrading the new account.
Upgrading and downgrading a premium account, if I understood correctly, costs like 20 U$D. L$7000 represents 25 bucks so those people has a profit doing it and the profit is more considering that they sell the land for more than 7K.
Is that legal according to ToS? Becose that looks to me like an scam to the rest of the virtual world.
If this is not ilegal, then It means that the uncontroled raise of land price allows this practice and should be stopped, isn't it?

Im not sure if this works exactly as I explain. Is something somebody told me ingame but im very new in land management...
Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
12-27-2006 10:28
From: Checho Masukami
There is something maybe I don't understand.
I heard that there are at least two persons creating new accounts, upgrading to premium, buying a First Land, selling it for more than L$7000, passing that money to their first account and downgrading the new account.
Upgrading and downgrading a premium account, if I understood correctly, costs like 20 U$D. L$7000 represents 25 bucks so those people has a profit doing it and the profit is more considering that they sell the land for more than 7K.
Is that legal according to ToS? Becose that looks to me like an scam to the rest of the virtual world.
If this is not ilegal, then It means that the uncontroled raise of land price allows this practice and should be stopped, isn't it?

Im not sure if this works exactly as I explain. Is something somebody told me ingame but im very new in land management...


Legal but not ethical. Despite the vitriol toward land resellers at the moment, most of us don't stoop that low.
_____________________
Shippou Oud
The Fox Within
Join date: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 141
ding-dong...
12-27-2006 10:50
From: HolyHell Cassell


Anyhoo, my advice is sound. Wait. Prices cannot stay at this level long. People will wake up and realize that paying sometimes nearly US $300 for an 8192 plot is totally insane.


Happy Holidays !! ~HH~

I payed $350 USD and $425 usd for two 8192'sM's, one of them was a year ago, and the other was 8 months ago..both of them were during the craze of edge of world land ownership (it was Well worth it, very beutifull).

Any's I do not force people to buy my lands, and quite frankly the high demand for land, is STRIPPING my bottom line, due to the prices raising so much, it gets very expensive to buy anything, I've resorted to dealing in junk lots, which are listed at reasonable rates.
Never in my year+ of dealing have I seen prices shoot up an average of $L.2-$L.5 (a meter) a day

Any one remember when there were debates about Linden's releasing too much land, and it was devaluing the market ^-^.....hehe...I would not mind of lands went back to $L4-$L5 a meter, and $L10 a meter for prime.
Parsimony Paragon
SL Post-Anarchist, I Hope
Join date: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Can One Give "Fair" Advice Based On Business Experience, In Their Own Business?
12-27-2006 12:30
You bet! And odds are, whether you like the direction or source, this person WILL have something of value to offer the inexperienced, whether we like the means by which that experience was gained or not.

Do I live on mainland? I did, for 3 weeks.

Do I now? No, I reside in a very very good private sim community with a very recognizeable name, which will remain a mystery.

Do I know HolyHell, or have I ever seen the companies realty signs? No, first time seeing the name today, and no idea what company name the land is rented/owned/managed under.

Do I think the advice is sound? You bet! I have 3500+ sqm of on-beach property, in a 100% residential sim where the smallest lot is 2048, and we all have beach...no spinners, no Mr. Lee, no casinoes, no camping chair mills and no virtual rub-rub shops. I paid 4L$/sqm to get it, and my tiers are slightly higher than would be for same land in mainland, BUT with the $9.95 each month I save not having to pay Premium fo rthe priviledge, I am coming out about $6/month ahead.

Do I own business? No.

How does that affect my point of view? I tried twice to start business in M-L...only way to get traffic/visibility as a start up is to sit down next to a casino and lag out so bad you cant create, or add one more A to the front of your business name than everyone else, or pay really high rates for advertising, which also cuts into your net-worth substantially. In private sims, businesses are clustered by zoning....once someone visits you, they go next door to see the shop there, and vice versa...a phenomenon rarely occuring in the mainland "malls" where people attack-shop, buy their wants, and get the heck out of Laggville as quick as possible.

What is the moral of the story? Look beyond the source of the message, if you must, and use the advice/information as it's intended, for your own good!

Any other morals? Keep personal invective and retribution out of forums that don't invite it, and if you honestly believe that any realtor/sim owner is going to take the time away from their 24/7 to start a forum thread as indirect to own gains as this one, to advance their sales of sim sqm's, then perhaps the M-L IS the place for you...sim management is incredibly hard work, and takes a broad view strategy to be successful, that doesnt include posts like the one Holy created.

Anything else? Thank you, the advice seems right on target, and I hope it does help folks like me, who did try the M-L land owner survival game, and drop way too much in, lucky to get out at break-even with my skin and enough L$ to take up private sim residency. When M-L ownership makes sense again, I will be back, perhaps.
Maximillian Desoto
Max's Landfall Bar & Dock
Join date: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 323
12-27-2006 17:21
From: Gummi Richthofen
I live in RL in a location where people have been saying that the house price bubble "must" burst for the last three straight years.


Yes, but as you allude to later in your post, there is a big difference between RL and SL. In RL, LAND is FINITE! They don't make any more of it.

In SL, there WILL be more land. Soon, and lots of it, as more private islands created in the land rush of `06 come online.

When will there be more mainland sims and First Land? Probably after the private island land rush is over. Can you wait that long? The various Land Barons are hoping not!!

Also, Maintenance parcels are usually not converted to Resident Land, parcels marked Linden Protected Land are NOT converted.

I wanted to buy a bunch of Mainland parcels when the private island price increases were announced, feeling prettty sure that prices would go up. I was right, but didn't spend the L$. The problem now is <as others have stated> it looks like the only people buying and selling are the land barons. <shrug> I have watched parcels change hands several times in the sims where I own land, but they always seem to stay For Sale.

This too _should_ pass, is my feeling.

Max
Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
12-30-2006 05:03
From: Checho Masukami
There is something maybe I don't understand.
I heard that there are at least two persons creating new accounts, upgrading to premium, buying a First Land, selling it for more than L$7000, passing that money to their first account and downgrading the new account.
Upgrading and downgrading a premium account, if I understood correctly, costs like 20 U$D. L$7000 represents 25 bucks so those people has a profit doing it and the profit is more considering that they sell the land for more than 7K.
Is that legal according to ToS? Becose that looks to me like an scam to the rest of the virtual world.
If this is not ilegal, then It means that the uncontroled raise of land price allows this practice and should be stopped, isn't it?

Im not sure if this works exactly as I explain. Is something somebody told me ingame but im very new in land management...

Of corse now that I need it I can't seem to find it, but my friend Raymond Figtree pointed me to a few posts about this and this is a strong reason why LL has been stingy with the first land. Only letting small bits at a time out until they figure out a way to fix this situation. So hopefully they will sort that out fast. As soon as they get that and regular mainland sim auctions going, I think the price will if anything level out and hopefully drop some.
Jason Hashimoto
Resident Pancake Expert
Join date: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 11
12-30-2006 05:31
From: Sarah Nerd
Of corse now that I need it I can't seem to find it, but my friend Raymond Figtree pointed me to a few posts about this and this is a strong reason why LL has been stingy with the first land. Only letting small bits at a time out until they figure out a way to fix this situation. So hopefully they will sort that out fast. As soon as they get that and regular mainland sim auctions going, I think the price will if anything level out and hopefully drop some.


I beleive you are talking about this thread.
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