My Christmas Gift to those that want to own Land
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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12-30-2006 05:37
Jason saves the day for me yet again! Thanks Jason =)
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Conifer Dada
Hiya m'dooks!
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,716
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12-30-2006 06:33
I've been in SL 3 months and a paying member for about 1 month. I didn't find any first land, so I went down the route of buying 16m plots and joining them as a start, then buying and selling bits and pieces here and there at modest profits. I'm now up to 384 sq m divided between 2 plots and the aim is to get 1 nice 512m plot. I recently sold my original land, made from 7 x 16m plots joined, for 1700L$, and the buyer has re-divided it into 16m plots for sale at 1000L$ each - but none have sold. But adjoining those plots was one 16m plot for sale at 50,000LS! What's more, it sold, and went back on the market at 99,999L$!! What is the game there, I wonder? Meanwhile, I've had a big sky platform above a large area of empty land for some time. I use that for most of my building etc. Probably someone will clear it eventually but nobody seems to be doing anything with this land so I guess I'm OK until then!
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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12-30-2006 07:55
Better yet, instead of just not buying the land at the prices it's set at, contact the sellers offering substantially lower prices. As they get more and more of these requests they will hopefully get the point and lower their prices!
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John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
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12-30-2006 10:31
Markets can stay irrational longer than you can remain solvent, which is a lesson learned from real life that applies equally to Second Life virtual assets.
I have had several weeks away from day to day log in, so I have had some time to think about various issues, one of which is Second Life.
In real life you buy an asset in either the expectation it can earn a decent income, or a capital appreciation. It seems to me that Second Life and the concept of the three dimensional web page has got a little ahead of itself. After logging in today I struggle to see fair value in mainland at current price levels. There are still limits in what you can do in Second Life in terms of linking to the main Net, the average Second Life user may not fit the more usual social economic pattern of the high spending net browser, and it has to be said that Linden Labs extract a respectable real dollar cost for land ownership that is substantially more than the usual two dimensional web space server costs.
Why do I believe this to be so…. well as I said in real life you purchase an asset for income and growth, at the current level of land prices I believe many people are just speculating rather than creating content to add value.
However you do not argue with the market as per my first paragraph, but if you no longer understand it you do not have to participate. Second Life has great commercial potential as a three dimensional web platform, but I currently believe that is the longer-term future rather than the immediate present. Second Life is still too buggy (and riddled with other unanswered questions ranging from adult content through to domain and taxation issues). On that point I note that the platform was off-line for around 12 hours yesterday, imagine what would happen if Google had the same problem.
Of course my views would totally change if the enement domain issue were resolved legally insomuch as this platform legally constituted another “place” to do business that was not connected to your real life country of domain
Just a personal view, do your own research
Regards
John
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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12-30-2006 10:39
Well, one difference between SL bubbles and RL bubbles is that it costs money to maintain SL land, so bubbles can pop a lot quicker - as your tier date starts to get closer, selling land becomes much more advantageous if it's only for speculation. Of course a month is an age in SL.
This bubble will pop soon I expect. Until then I wouldn't advise anyone to buy mainland at these prices at all, certainly not. If you want to live somewhere, the price difference very much favours rentals at this point, and you can always move out when mainland prices drop again if you want.
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
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12-30-2006 13:50
Just as an fyi, the reason for the land backup has to do with the number of islands ordered in November (this is my theory at least). In November LL raised the island costs, with a short period where you could order a sim at the old prices. LL reported (on the blog) that as a result of that event, the grid would grow 30%. I don't have an exact figure of the size of the grid at that time but it was between 3000 and 5000 sims. That comes out to be 900 -> 1500 sims ordered. With two sims per server, thats 450 -> 750 servers that LL had to ordered & setup.
As you can imagine it would take a long time for 450 to 750 servers to arrive and get setup. Thats a lot of wiring, networking & unpacking.
_____________________
Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly
Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
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cHex Losangeles
Registered User
Join date: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 370
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12-30-2006 16:06
From: Ordinal Malaprop Well, one difference between SL bubbles and RL bubbles is that it costs money to maintain SL land This leads me to assume you aren't a RL landowner.
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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Nah
12-30-2006 17:05
From: Musicteacher Rampal Better yet, instead of just not buying the land at the prices it's set at, contact the sellers offering substantially lower prices. As they get more and more of these requests they will hopefully get the point and lower their prices! I get these requests daily, just like I always have, ever since I've been dealing land. People are always wanting a better deal no matter what the market rate is. Only difference is now I have to say no, I can't offer a better deal because I paid so much for the land, I barley marked it up and I have little negotiation room. So from my personal experience people offering less for land doesnt effect my pricing.
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tristan Eliot
Say What?!
Join date: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
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12-30-2006 18:29
From: Sarah Nerd I get these requests daily, just like I always have, ever since I've been dealing land. People are always wanting a better deal no matter what the market rate is. Only difference is now I have to say no, I can't offer a better deal because I paid so much for the land, I barley marked it up and I have little negotiation room. So from my personal experience people offering less for land doesnt effect my pricing. That's interesting since i personally watched you double the price of a plot. Oh well.
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Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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12-30-2006 20:20
From: Sarah Nerd I get these requests daily, just like I always have, ever since I've been dealing land. People are always wanting a better deal no matter what the market rate is. Only difference is now I have to say no, I can't offer a better deal because I paid so much for the land, I barley marked it up and I have little negotiation room. So from my personal experience people offering less for land doesnt effect my pricing. That's my point though YOU shouldn't pay as much as you are for land. But if you aren't willing to offer better deals and keep purchasing ever increasingly priced land eventually you will stop selling land because there has to be a limit somewhere at what people will pay. Good Luck...
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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12-30-2006 22:33
From: tristan Eliot That's interesting since i personally watched you double the price of a plot. Oh well. Well I have backend records of all my transactions, and I don't recall ever seeing you =? But hey, Thanks for the friendly forum feedback. And your welcome to look at the current listings to see that all mine are as usual, on the low end pricing of mainland. And generaly sell within a day if not in hours so look fast. Again, Thank you for your friendly useful forum banter.
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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12-30-2006 22:36
From: Musicteacher Rampal That's my point though YOU shouldn't pay as much as you are for land. But if you aren't willing to offer better deals and keep purchasing ever increasingly priced land eventually you will stop selling land because there has to be a limit somewhere at what people will pay. Good Luck... And lets see you stop doing your job because you disagree with it's market. After a few weeks and hungry kids, you think adapting is the better answer as well I'm sure. I'm confident that when LL starts to release sims the price will improve or at least level out. Until then I will continue to do what I have taken on as my rl job and sorce of income and adapt to whatever happens.
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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12-30-2006 22:45
From: tristan Eliot That's interesting since i personally watched you double the price of a plot. Oh well. And further more, if it was a plot I got an exceptional deal on, and someone I deal with on a regular basis or an average user (not anougher dealer) wanted to work with on price with me, I would. I'm sure I can find numerous people to back this one up. But those great deals are few and far in between. And right now with this market I mark up very very small percentages for the time and effort I put into sl with the time I spend here, and when I fix up plots if needed.
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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And your gift to all who have bought recently is...
12-30-2006 23:08
...having them lose the value of their investments. Thanks for the bias, wrapped in personal gain, HolyHell.
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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12-30-2006 23:19
From: Strife Onizuka Just as an fyi, the reason for the land backup has to do with the number of islands ordered in November (this is my theory at least). In November LL raised the island costs, with a short period where you could order a sim at the old prices. LL reported (on the blog) that as a result of that event, the grid would grow 30%. I don't have an exact figure of the size of the grid at that time but it was between 3000 and 5000 sims. That comes out to be 900 -> 1500 sims ordered. With two sims per server, thats 450 -> 750 servers that LL had to ordered & setup.
As you can imagine it would take a long time for 450 to 750 servers to arrive and get setup. Thats a lot of wiring, networking & unpacking. And guess what else? You need room for the new servers. In a grand stroke of irony, there is a rumor that LL has no RL real estate to put all the new servers. I tend to think this rumor is true. After all, they are based in San Fran, one of the most crowded sims in the RL Grid.
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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12-30-2006 23:24
From: Sarah Nerd And further more, if it was a plot I got an exceptional deal on, and someone I deal with on a regular basis or an average user (not anougher dealer) wanted to work with on price with me, I would. I have witnessed you do just that, Sarah, and personally saw someone get a WAY below market deal from you on a plot you got a good deal on. You are still my role model when it comes to ethical and fair land deals and my favorite person to recommend to buy from.
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Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
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<3
12-31-2006 00:00
From: Raymond Figtree I have witnessed you do just that, Sarah, and personally saw someone get a WAY below market deal from you on a plot you got a good deal on. You are still my role model when it comes to ethical and fair land deals and my favorite person to recommend to buy from. Thank You Raymond, I could easily say the same about you. If everyone had your sweet sexy nature, sl would be a better place.
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DolphPun Somme
The Pun is its own reword
Join date: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 309
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12-31-2006 00:11
From: Raymond Figtree \ After all, they are based in San Fran, one of the most crowded sims in the RL Grid. Oh you just said a big friggin mouthful. San Fran cisco is one croweded, overpriced (but worth it) sims on the California Cluster.
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Starbuckk Serapis
Registered User
Join date: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 114
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12-31-2006 00:31
There seem to me to be a number of factors causing this big bubble in land pricing (which I hope will burst soon - these prices are insane): 1. If you've watched the auctions there has been a clear decline in new mainland sims in the last couple months. My guess. LL makes more USD on selling islands than they do on commissioning ML regions. Most of this has been covered already in this thread, so, nuff said. 2. Influx of new residents caused by recent publicity. Also covered in earlier comments. 3. Inability to distinguish in a land search between mainland and private island sales. This one has not been covered, but from my observation, it definitely seems to play a part. IF any ML land does happen to pop up below 14, it is gone "before the pixels are cold". It has to be contributing. And LL is apparently willfully ignoring massive resident demands to fix this. There are no less than three proposals to separate mainland and island land search. And its all over the forums. Yet LL has not even acknowledged that they've seen the proposals. This needs to be corrected. But for some reason, I suspect it is the $$ power of the island owners that is preventing it from happening. Now, to my question on this topic: Can someone please tell me how it is possible that a parcel that is posted for sale at a low price can have swoopers on it within 10 SECONDS of it being posted? I do not understand this, but I have witnessed it. I recently watched as someone posted their land..at a low price..and I kid you not..less than 10 seconds later the land was full of swoop and grabbers. Since this land posted at 10 per sqm, this means it was intermingled amidst tons of covenant land. I literally had my finger on the enter button to buy it when this occured (I was standing on the parcel next to it when he marked it..there was no one else in the region). But an SL glitch prevented me from getting it ("cannot buy right now due to technical difficulties.."  . This situation leads me to believe speculation that I have heard that there is some kind of exploit that allows this to happen..and would then be a forth cause of these inflated land prices. But...that is speculation..for now.
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Kratax Skillman
Warrior and Dragon
Join date: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 123
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12-31-2006 02:08
I wonder if those grabbers are actually some kind of bots. That would explain that they get there in seconds.
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Keep forests as forests
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John Horner
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 626
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12-31-2006 04:04
The possible answer to that question (if true) will almost certainly set the virtual cat amongst the pigeons....
But I have been told (on good authority) there are land scanning scripts hidden in almost every Vending Machine sold (where the file permissions prevent you from reviewing the Linden Script) The script picks up land offered for sale in every sim it is located in and forwards that data on to central servers
Various groups of land barons have access to this data, it is possibly a paid for service similar to a live stock market feed.
Given almost every mainland sim has at least one Vending Machine, nearly all mainland is covered by this data reporting service.
As an aside I think we should stop knocking land barons, after all they are only market makers enabling both the sale and purchase of land. With the possible (and partial exclusion) of all but the very biggest land barons, they do not set land prices; they are only reacting to a free market economy
Hope this helps
Regards
John
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Kratax Skillman
Warrior and Dragon
Join date: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 123
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12-31-2006 04:39
I think that the one who sets the price of a land, sets the price of a land. The free market does not set anything, the free market is just free market. And the land flippers do not enable that land can be bought, they just flip the price of land to be higher. Some land barons though make the land more pretty by covenants and such. I think it is ok to do these kinds of businesses, but if I was LL, I would make SL land prices affordable and forget land flipping. I think it is more important that more people can and want to buy (large enough and affordable) land, so that the virtual world business would get bigger and bigger.
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Keep forests as forests
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
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12-31-2006 05:00
From: John Horner The possible answer to that question (if true) will almost certainly set the virtual cat amongst the pigeons....
But I have been told (on good authority) there are land scanning scripts hidden in almost every Vending Machine sold (where the file permissions prevent you from reviewing the Linden Script) The script picks up land offered for sale in every sim it is located in and forwards that data on to central servers
Various groups of land barons have access to this data, it is possibly a paid for service similar to a live stock market feed.
Given almost every mainland sim has at least one Vending Machine, nearly all mainland is covered by this data reporting service.
As an aside I think we should stop knocking land barons, after all they are only market makers enabling both the sale and purchase of land. With the possible (and partial exclusion) of all but the very biggest land barons, they do not set land prices; they are only reacting to a free market economy
Hope this helps
Regards
John Wow. Whoever told you that was misinformed or lying. Scripts have no way of telling if land is for sale or not, and they have no way of getting the sale price. If you can find the LSL function that provides this information, I'll pay you handsomely for it  They could spot public land, which was available for next to nothing. Notice the past tense, there's no longer any such thing as public land. Land that is abandoned now reverts to Gov Linden ownership. When people refer to land scanning scripts, this is what they mean, however they have been useless for ages now.
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cHex Losangeles
Registered User
Join date: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 370
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12-31-2006 05:22
From: Kratax Skillman And the land flippers do not enable that land can be bought, they just flip the price of land to be higher. They actually do perform a service, though it is also true that they help keep land prices high. Imagine if you would a world where there were no land resellers; if you wanted to sell a plot of land, you might have to wait quite some time to find a buyer. You could, of course, speed up the profit by selling well below market value. Land flippers help you get a better price for your land and sell it quicker--they take on the risk of being the ones sitting around waiting for buyers. If there were only one reseller, you would still have to drop your selling price a bit to attract their attention; but with dozens or even hundreds of baby barons out there, they're competing for ever-decreasing profit margins--and the land seller wins. Anybody having to sell land at this point in SL history is benefitting from the higher prevailing prices and quicker sales, thanks in part to the land flippers. And then there is the fact that there is plenty of land priced at a point where nobody is buying it and marking it up. Could it be that the land flippers are not simply buying land and marking it up, but just have their own idea of what land is really worth? Of course. If they're right, they'll make a profit. If they're wrong, they're the ones who will lose out. Seems fair. It seems they'll buy land at 8k/m2, but not at 15k/m2 unless there's something to make it special. Finally, I believe one reason there is so much land for sale is that many people who really had no reason to sell their land are doing the math this month and realizing that there may be a good reason to sell after all--higher prices. If nobody pays the inflated price, they haven't lost anything, and if somebody does, this is their opportunity to realize a tidy bundle of L$'s.
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Kratax Skillman
Warrior and Dragon
Join date: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 123
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12-31-2006 05:23
I think bots can have mouse pointer moving robots, so they could use the plain search functionality. This has happened in some other games where it is illegal and a real problem and pain.
But of course when affordable land is scarce, then lots of people are without land and they all are looking and searching for some. And the land barons with helpers are searching for land full time job. Then it is no wonder that all of these people that are using this one and only land searching tool, that at least 3 people happen to arrive to the cheapest land pretty soon at the same time. The cheapest land is at the top of the list, if you sort the items.
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Keep forests as forests
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