What is the motivation to play a (non-sexual) submissive/supporting role?

Why does a team owner get to choose which players to hire or accept, and why do they choose to play on that team?



If you can script an AI that can fill the role better than a human, what are you doing here? Go out and earn some money.



You really have no clue about RP at all do you? (Assuming you are not just trolling, which I suspect is the reality here).

Your opinion, young padawan, is your answer. You are convinced you know all there is to learn and thus do not understand the lessons offered to you.



Lol, and everyone can be a hit writer in RL, too? It is not a challenge to get someone to make something up. It is a challenge to make things up that work within a context or setting.

Yumi it kind of sounds like you want to be in charge but don't feel you have a knack for it. Yet you do not wish to be 'submissive' (strange word, for a student) either.

So my only advice, then, would be to find smaller venues and practise. You will eventually become better at it, or not. If after some time nothing improved, then perhaps find another way to have fun.

There is a saying that acting can't be taught, and I agree with it. It can be guided, and honed, and practised. But the sense for it must be in there somewhere. If after some time in a less large sim or less pressured situation you are in the same rut, roleplay might not be for you. (You seem to have performance issues, i.e. who has 'earned' the right to be in charge, so I am only guessing, here, that you would feel pressure to perform and earn/keep any position also.)

What else can any of us say, without knowing you, or the situation. Be open, try, accept guidance, and find your way. But above all, if it isn't fun, it isn't worth doing, this is for fun. If Second Life feels like a chore, a drudgery, "you're doing it wrong" as some say.

I'll never sing opera. I can accept the fact.

of one sort or another... yes. doesn't it always?

If it was a combat class you may have completely misinterpreted what was going on.

Good combat systems usually involve skill to use even though they are scripted items.
Its not just a case of "sitting on a poseball"
To be able to defeat people who have that skill, you need to gain it yourself otherwise they will easily defeat you.
Classes teaching this skill and practice can help.

HOWEVER

if it really is an actual roleplay of a instructor teaching students then I recommend you watch Harry Potter, or Naruto.
Remember the main heroes in those stories are NOT the instructors
So there is your reason - People accept that student role so they can like the heroes in those stories.

But again that isn't a good example, because when the actual game of sport begins, the player has full control. Why would anyone choose to play on a team where the team owner doesn't just choose what players to hire or accept, but also chooses the result of every match?



NPCing was only one option; you ignored the offscreening and troupe options.



I do have a clue. It's just that I'm used to the traditional table-top RP style, where there is usually a resolution system involving dice or other impartial systems. They say that this is necessary to avoid arguments. Now it seems in this case, we have no impartial resolution system and arguments are instead all short-circuited by the teacher arguing that it's their house and they'll throw out anyone who doesn't agree with them. Now that argument might be fair enough, but again, why does anyone participate in that?



I do understand the lessons. Do YOU know about debate? I'm just arguing my side. If I am wrong, I must ultimately lose. I wouldn't mind that, as I don't want to win; I want to find the truth.



Sorry. What I mean is that having the teacher say "you stink, and now it's a challenge to make me not think that" - well, besides the issue that I might not want that to be my challenge, there's the question of - how can I alter your opinion? You are free to have any opinion that you like after all. If there _is_ a defined and determined method by which I can alter it, then that could be programmed into a resolution system.

What teams do you play on where noone is criticized for their level of play? The difference is that the actions being critically reviewed are intellectual rather than physical.



Offscreening is a non-answer, since you still need someone on screen to decide who is at what skill level. Troupe (presuming you mean consensus) actually does occur, but for the most part is much less efficient than simply delegating the review/leadership duties to one person.



I call shenannegans... what tabletop RP have you played where there is no GM? Yes, you can revert everything to dice rolls but any *good* GM knows when to accept the results and when to ignore them. Also, any GM sets the difficulty levels for any given action.

Also reverting to dice rolling is a LOT less immersive.



I did not realize this was a debate. That implies you have a position you are defending rather than actually asking for input.



It is a challenge for you to find ways to convince the teacher you do not stink without simply saying 'no I don't.'

If you do not like that particular challenge, find somewhere that offers you a challenge that you do like. Any particular sim has no obligation to cater to your specific preferences.

I thought I'd already answered that question. It's because I'd like to be able to organize something myself, but in order to do that, I need to know what others find fun - in order that I can make it fun for them. I would quite enjoy setting something like that up, but I don't want to do it if others don't enjoy it in turn - firstly because I don't want to be an ass to them, and secondly because if I don't they won't turn up. So I need to understand why other people _do_ enjoy that. Now, I know people have answered that question so far, but all of them either don't seem to apply to the cases I observed or are too specific to individual organizers and therefore don't apply to me (note: "not applying" to me does not mean it is false for me, only that it is unknown for me).



Because very often those words are huge, like Alexander's sports team example - that quietly brings in an impartial mechanism, as I was describing. And as for taking helpful attempts as an attack, I don't really do that directly, I just observe the nature of the help being offered. I mean, I've floated suggestions of this kind to friends on other occasions, but when I've suggested that I might not do it because others wouldn't like to participate, most of them say "yes, oh, ok." In other words, they are saying yes (they agree others would not participate) and ok (it is ok with them for me not to go ahead, which it wouldn't be if they had any interest in it).



Because it doesn't give the necessary information. Sure they are enjoying it, but how can people be sure that they are enjoying it? Maximize their enjoyment? Where are these people?

Again, there are NO actions. The people aren't competing/learning to write poses well. They're using a poseball and that's all. Again.. it's like the team owner choosing that the team loses the match, and then complaining at the players.



No, troupe means that the character identities are disengaged from the avatar identities and the roles rotate. It's from Ars Magica. And as for "who is at what skill level", well, if you offscreen the teacher then those restrictions don't exist.



The GM may override the resolution system sometimes, but they only do so at critical moments when doing so makes things more enjoyable for the players. That's a far cry from having NO resolution system, which is equivalent to it _always_ being more enjoyable for the GM to override the system. And that seems like a really bizarre circumstance to me!



Right, but if there is no judgment of skill level other than the teacher's opinion, then there is NO WAY to convince them of that. What can I do? Any action I would take would need to come back to the same teacher for judgment of skill level, and they've already decided that I stink.



That doesn't address the issue of the teacher being an ass for forcing people (such as me) into the choice of doing something they do not like, or doing nothing.

Besides the fact that you can ask them for feedback, the fact that they stay indicates some level of enjoyment.



If any of us could tell you how to maximize people's enjoyment we would likely be not only rich, but the world would be a much better place. I don't think there is any entertainer ever that could guarantee maximized enjoyment.

But again, that doesn't help the organizer ensure people are enjoying themselves. If they leave, she finds out they weren't enjoying themselves, but it is too late to do anything about it. And moreover, people may be staying even though they aren't enjoying themselves, because it is still better than doing nothing.

You must have been in very boring table top RP sessions if you cannot see beyond a poseball. Poseballs cannot script every possibility. The rest has to be played out/RP'd, just as you do not go into a table top session, sit down, roll dice and say 'I guess my character does this.' And by that I mean it is a lot more interesting if you do no merely roll the dice and say 'I win' but actually play up situations.



Firstly, cycling roles is not immersive. It is a lot harder to stay in character and/or identify with your character under such circumstances. Also not everyone wants to play every role.

Second there is nothing to acheive, since you are all just cycling roles rather than earning them.



There isn't NO resolution system. If the teacher does not allow the students to develop, or does not react favourably to good RP, then the students will not enjoy the RP and will leave.



How is that different from regular table top RP, given that the GM sets the opposition. How are social situations handled when you RP'd? All dice rolls? Nothing every played out or situations only resolved by combat?

And the teacher has not decided *you* specificly stink. It is not personal. The premise is that all new applicants are novices (to be fair to those more skilled at RP and more importantly to those who have been there longer and put in their 'dues.'

Otherwise, anyone can come in and say they are the best martial artist ever. They could challenge the teacher and simply say 'I use my special super secret technique and you lose.' Their technique could even be highly scripted with flashy effects. However to actually beat the teacher, they need the teacher to agree to be defeated, otherwise the teacher just stands there and says 'nice lightshow.'

Ditto if they challenge the students.

And if the teacher is also the land owner, they can if need be invoke their secret technique and bannish the pretender from the sim.

What are the alternatives? Use dice and let the one with the most dice luck lead? Rotate roles and force people to play multiple roles and/or personna?




If you do not like it, leave. If you do not like putting others in such situations even when they do enjoy them, leave. Noone is forcing you to do anything or to lead in any particular way. You cannot force them to accept you either though. You might be able to convince them to do so if you show a willingness to play along.

If you ask them for feedback and they say they are enjoying themselves, keep up the good work, then don't expect any miracle answers here on the boards.

When you ask questions like that you are back to being contrary just for the sake of being contrary.

Nonetheless, what I observed in the sessions I went to was that people were using the poseballs, and that was all. You do want to be using them for at least a fair minimum amount, otherwise you might as well use a MUSH, which doesn't charge tier and doesn't wear out your computer.



The teacher didn't earn their role through RP.



Or maybe not. Depending on the dominance of the RP sim in the market, they may be forced to stay because there is no alternative. RPers do this all the time - "bad gaming is better than no gaming".



Most social situations have their outcome defined before they even begin, and then it's just a bit of improv fun to see how we get there.



Again, there was no sign of that premise there, and no guarantee that what the teacher was saying wasn't personal.



Which would be understandable, except that the teacher has done basically the same thing to get to be the teacher.



Again, my question was addressed above - how do you do this sort of thing without being an ass? If you think that those actions don't make the teacher an ass, then argue for that, rather than telling me what to do about having an ass for a teacher.

Then they may just be saying so to avoid a social conflict.

If you are not trolling and really believe that someone can provide a universally applicable answer to the question of whether people will enjoy a particular type of role playing or any other entertainment, or why people enjoy a particular type of role playing or entertainment, then your understanding of human beings is seriously lacking. Those questions cannot be universally answered because of the variation in preferences among people. Some will enjoy a movie, others will not--or a game, or a role playing environment. Companies that desire advanced information about the potential popularity and profitability of a particular movie, game, or other entertainment have to resort to test marketing--gathering groups of people and surveying their opinions. Even that method isn't foolproof--something might test well but do poorly because the test group was unrepresentative in a way that the testers did not realize.

It is easier, I suppose, to keep asking for answers that don't exist than it is to try offering an entertainment option, and if fails, trying again and again until a successful nitch is found. And I suppose you find it satisfying to ask unanswerable questions over and over, while criticizing those who try to explain the problems with approaching the issue of the potential popularity of an entertainment option with anything other than a trial-and-error approach.

Of course. But I'm not trying to suggest that _everyone_ will ever enjoy something. What I'm asking is, for the people who DO like that sort of thing, what is it they like?

Also, the question could be put as: "how can the organizer adapt to what people are doing?" In other words, you can include if-then statements to try and work out what kind of people they are.



Um.. you mean it's easier to ask people if they're interested, than to spend hours building something and operating it only to find it gets ignored, then tearing it down and building it again? Umm... yea, it probably is.. and I don't see anything wrong with wanted to do my research first. There are a thousand box-shaped clubs on the grid owned by those who did not.

You havn't provided enough information about the roleplay you are refering to for me to tell you why people like it.

You need to watch more Naruto if you are going to ever understand a ninja training school roleplay.

A gym simulating a RL excercise classes could be amusing because its something you see in RL. A dojo roleplay could be amusing for the same reasons.

I suspect the training session would be part of a larger roleplay
For example the players go train in the dojo under the ancient sensei, they learn exotic fighting styles then go battle the evil warlord.
Or perhaps the dojo training is a bit of roleplay between dragonball Z style combat duels if that is what this group does.
You havn't given enough information.

And how long did you stand watching them do 'nothing' on their poseballs? And why did you not ask any of them what they enjoyed about it, since both you and they were there?

[quoteThe teacher didn't earn their role through RP.[/quote]

Neither did the owner of the local concert hall. Gosh it is unfair that he gets to choose who plays there and I do not. In fact, I have to pay to hear people play there, and he gets paid to do the same... very unfair. Welcome to capitalism. Don't tell us you do not understand that either. And there is no 'skill' involved in listening to a concert. You cannot be sure in advance if it will be good or bad.. even great performers have off nights.

If it is an amatuer performance then you likely paid less for admission, but you are taking even more chances on the quality.



You have an interesting definition of 'forced.' If they leave, who penalizes them?



And how is that different than the setting you seem to be objecting to, other than that you dislike that particular setting? You still have not explained your appearant need to create a setting you do not like and do not feel anyone else should like...



Nor any guarantees that any given student not playing along precisely in step with the teacher is not personal. You seem very quick to accuse though, given you were not the subject, merely the observer.



The students have each built their own dojo style sims? That seems unlikely.



You are asking the wrong question..... the question you should be asking is 'why are martial arts instructors stereotypically asses?'

The answer is that they are not, really, but that RL martial arts requires hard work and dedication. Most sports do. Anyone not able to put up with the criticism is likely not going to have the dedication needed. The agression also helps build adrenaline in the students, making aspects of the training easier.

Even though this is not a 'real' physical setting, it is simulating one, which means the teacher acting like a real physical teacher/trainer adds to the simulation.

ya know Yumi, there have been plenty of good dissections of motivation in here, but in the end, it's really simple... people do it because they enjoy it... if they aren't enjoying it... they either try to change it, or they stop.

now from what I see, you aren't enjoying it, and don't feel like any of the suggestions here are workable for you.... which leaves stopping or masochism (and hey some people do enjoy that).

no one is going to be able to define someone else's enjoyment of a thing (though we can guess from personal experience) so it's kinda pointless, especially if you consider that if you had the same motivations, you wouldn't need an explanation... it's there or it isn't.

.. Because if they were enjoying themselves, I didn't want to disturb them?



Yes, but they are real musicians playing real music, and usually the concert hall owner isn't one of them.. this is someone with no music talent opening a concert hall, in which they pretend to play, and expecting others to turn up and listen.

Also, the commitment is less. One of these RPs occurred in a prefab on a 4096 that wasn't even owned by the organizer.



It creates the situation where they either put up with what the build provides, or leave and get nothing.



It's a setting that I do like, and I'm only arguing that others would not like it as my side of that debate.



If it is not personal, it could be mechanised.



The student you described, who turned up with their own "ultimate technique" has done the same as the teacher did - barged in front of the group and argued that they must be master because they have built something.



No, because the ass factor is that they barge into being the teacher and running the setting, when there is nothing special about them to entitle them to do so. At least in a real martial arts class, the instructor is better than the students at martial arts, and has earned their position that way.

I've already addressed this point three or four times, so I will try to make it clear once more.

I would like to organize a similar RP.

There are two reasons why I do not do so.

One, I do not understand why people enjoy participating in them. I would like to, in order that I can make things enjoyable for the participants. That is why I am asking. There must be an answer, because other organizers know it; and "because they enjoy it" gives no information to act on.

Two, barging in front of a group and declaring yourself leader seems to be an arrogant ass thing to do. I am attempting to debate this. If I am wrong, my arguments in favor of it will be defeated.

Submissives get presents.
Dominants GIVE presents

ITT, Yumi YET AGAIN needs to get everyone else to convince her to do something she wants to do but won't do because she can't snap out of whatever mental block she has that keeps her from doing whatever she wants to do, the way any other person would. Seriously people, I know you're all well meaning here but you do realize you're only encouraging her to keep sitting around overanalysing every freaking thing in the world before she ever actually does anything on her own volition, right? Right? Alright, good luck with that.

That ain't what I heard.