What is the motivation to play a (non-sexual) submissive/supporting role?
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Yumi Murakami
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Join date: 27 Sep 2005
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06-28-2009 14:34
So, since my last thread I've been looking around at various role-playing places and trying to learn about what's going on, but there's something there that surprised me and that I couldn't understand.
I went to several places that were role-playing "classes". Classes in being a ninja, classes in dancing, classes in magic, etc. All of these had similar formats: people stood around using scripted items (swords, poseballs, etc) while an "instructor" walked around and occasionally told people they were doing things wrong or badly.
Now.. this confused me.. obviously nobody was really doing anything wrong (they were just poseballs, after all) and the instructor wasn't really better than anyone else there. So why would anyone agree or want to just use a scripted item - that they could do anywhere - and have a chance of someone else - entirely self-appointed - telling them they were doing it wrong - purely from the ether?
My first thought was that it was a social thing, that they were friends with the "teacher" and so played along. But it didn't seem to be the case - often new people, unknown to anyone else there, seemed to turn up.
My second was that it was a "local maximum power grab" - an issue in SL that explains a lot of FIC, etc, complaints. Local maximum is a lovely term for mathematics for when things aren't all that great, and nowhere near as good as they could be, but they don't get better because any action you can take right now makes things worse. In SL, it occurs where someone sticks their neck out (eg, to organize something) and grabs control, and then others find they can't complain because although the organization right now might not be too great, the only immediate changes possible are to drag the group into social conflict or abandon any organization altogether, both of which are worse, and will probably get the protester thrown out of the group because they appear to be responsible for dragging it down. But this didn't seem to be the case, either - there was no sign of resentment, and although it's often well-hidden in cases like this, it seems a bit paranoid to assume it must be there.
So.. what is the motivation? Some odd kind of subspace? Appeal of structure? Something else? (Please don't say "because they enjoy it" - the question is why do they?)
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Anti Antonelli
Deranged Toymaker
Join date: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,091
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06-28-2009 15:03
If I'm understanding correctly, I guess the people there have to some degree agreed that an important aspect of what they are roleplaying (a classroom/training situation) is criticism and correction as well as support and positive instruction. It even sort of makes sense to me, despite the surface silliness of correcting an error that didn't really happen at all. I suppose it's all in how much "suspension of disbelief" one is willing to allow for the sake of a certain level of realism. I am led to wonder if, somewhere, there are people doing ultra-realistic roleplay in even more unexpected situations: "Earnest Roleplayer nimbly deflects his opponent's thrust but trips at an inopportune moment and stabs himself in the foot" "The awkward silence deepens as it becomes clear that Textual Realist suffers from intense stage fright and is entirely unable to address the scores of admirers waiting for him to begin his performance" "Sirius RPer has had too much to drink and tries his best to delay the inevitable moment when it will become clear that he not only can't get it up but currently lacks the small-muscle coordination to deal effectively with buttons and zippers" etc. 
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RockAndRoll Michigan
Registered User
Join date: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 589
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06-28-2009 15:33
I haven't seen any of this that you're referring to, but you did mention scripted weapons. Were the people using the scripted weapons also sitting on poseballs that animated their avatars, or were they moving around without sitting on anything? (There are radars that can easily tell you if they're sitting on a poseball or not). And were these weapons doing things that the people wielding them had to control in order to act at specific times or in specific manners? If they still maintain some control over their avatar's actions, or at least those of the weapons, it is extremely easy for them to actually be doing something wrong that they can be called on the carpet for in the manner that they were. I think we need more information about what is happening in this situation.
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Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
Join date: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1,532
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06-28-2009 16:07
From: Anti Antonelli I am led to wonder if, somewhere, there are people doing ultra-realistic roleplay in even more unexpected situations: "Earnest Roleplayer nimbly deflects his opponent's thrust but trips at an inopportune moment and stabs himself in the foot" "The awkward silence deepens as it becomes clear that Textual Realist suffers from intense stage fright and is entirely unable to address the scores of admirers waiting for him to begin his performance" "Sirius RPer has had too much to drink and tries his best to delay the inevitable moment when it will become clear that he not only can't get it up but currently lacks the small-muscle coordination to deal effectively with buttons and zippers" etc.  lol that brings back memories for me.. When I do that kind of thing it's pretty certain I've lost interest and am just am just being mean..
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Angelique LaFollette
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Join date: 17 Jun 2004
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06-28-2009 16:19
In an RP environment, everyone takes a part, this week they may be a subordinate or supporting role, next week RP may focus on them and thier own personal scenario.
In the martial arts class you describe the actual actions are controlled by scripts, and animations, but there is more going on under the surface, and through role play some students are seen to be doing better than others in the eyes of the Sensei. What exact criteria he or she uses varies from person to person, but taking an active part in the scenario is probably in there somewhere. Friction between students perhaps could flare up, a student could profess difficulty in executing a move as well as he would like, Or the sensei could stimulate RP by stating a student isn't doing as well as they could.
So, what rewards are there for taking part? That's not really the point. The point is getting together and building a story for the enjoyment of all.
Even in Shakespeare, Not everyone gets to be Hamlet,, somebody has to serve the wine, or be the grave digger.
That's the second simplest answer, the simplest one is the one you don't want to hear, that they enjoy it. Remember, of all the possible explanations for an given phenomena, the simplest is most often the true one.
Angel.
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Yumi Murakami
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06-28-2009 16:49
From: Angelique LaFollette That's the second simplest answer, the simplest one is the one you don't want to hear, that they enjoy it. Remember, of all the possible explanations for an given phenomena, the simplest is most often the true one.
Yes, but it's not actually answering the question - "enjoying it" just means they get something from it, but what is it that they enjoy? Or, to put it another way, if I was the person in that position, how could I maximize their enjoyment?
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Pussycat Catnap
Sex Kitten
Join date: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 1,131
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06-28-2009 16:55
Roleplay is called roleplay because you play a role. There's really not much more to it than that. If you go to some RP sim and it doesn't appeal; its not your kink. Move on. I've spent a lifetime trying to understand how anyone could be a Republican, and I can't understand it; so I move on. It's their kink - not mine. I guess it works for them. If everyone thought the same way as me; I might find it fun for 3 minutes, but then I'd go nuts or get bored. 
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Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
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06-28-2009 17:05
Are you looking at this from an Utilitarian perspective or are you having problems with applying an Epicurean approach to a situation that superficially you believe should apply but by your logical framework cannot.
I haven't read the thread you refer to but tbh you sound like you're researching an undergraduate essay.
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Yumi Murakami
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06-28-2009 17:38
From: Couldbe Yue Are you looking at this from an Utilitarian perspective or are you having problems with applying an Epicurean approach to a situation that superficially you believe should apply but by your logical framework cannot.
I haven't read the thread you refer to but tbh you sound like you're researching an undergraduate essay. Nope, just trying to find my place. Are you saying playing such a role provides ataraxia?
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Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
Join date: 30 Mar 2008
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06-28-2009 17:45
From: Yumi Murakami Nope, just trying to find my place.
Are you saying playing such a role provides ataraxia? lol such an interesting word choice. Ataraxia in this context is an unlikely descriptor as you well know.
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Yumi Murakami
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06-28-2009 18:17
From: Couldbe Yue lol such an interesting word choice.
Ataraxia in this context is an unlikely descriptor as you well know. Says the one who introduces Epicureanism and Utilitarianism? 
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
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06-28-2009 18:39
methinks OP is missing a key to RP... in that each person has a role, roles beget expectations, the "teacher" is fulfilling the expectation of being critical and demanding of excellence, the "students" are fulfilling the the expectation of gradual attainment of expertise through instruction and error... as long as everyone fulfills their reasonable expectations, while adding interesting elements to the story (and sometimes interesting is plainness, but we won't go into that) then most everyone is happy that the story is progressing.
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Yumi Murakami
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06-28-2009 20:23
From: Void Singer methinks OP is missing a key to RP... in that each person has a role, roles beget expectations, the "teacher" is fulfilling the expectation of being critical and demanding of excellence, the "students" are fulfilling the the expectation of gradual attainment of expertise through instruction and error... as long as everyone fulfills their reasonable expectations, while adding interesting elements to the story (and sometimes interesting is plainness, but we won't go into that) then most everyone is happy that the story is progressing. Ok, but who's writing the story? How do I know I'll like the story? If the teacher's story involved me being a bumbling goof, what if I don't like that? Just leave? Why? The teacher is no better than me, did nothing to earn that position. What's going on?
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
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06-28-2009 20:26
Gosh it is so good to see Mistress Angelique posting here again. YAY!
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3Ring Binder
always smile
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06-28-2009 20:51
/me waves to Yumi. i'll answer your question with a little twist on the LL's motto: your world, their imagination. 
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Tarina Sewell
Just Browsing Thank you
Join date: 20 Jul 2007
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06-28-2009 23:34
From: Anti Antonelli If I'm understanding correctly, I guess the people there have to some degree agreed that an important aspect of what they are roleplaying (a classroom/training situation) is criticism and correction as well as support and positive instruction. It even sort of makes sense to me, despite the surface silliness of correcting an error that didn't really happen at all. I suppose it's all in how much "suspension of disbelief" one is willing to allow for the sake of a certain level of realism. I am led to wonder if, somewhere, there are people doing ultra-realistic roleplay in even more unexpected situations: "Earnest Roleplayer nimbly deflects his opponent's thrust but trips at an inopportune moment and stabs himself in the foot" "The awkward silence deepens as it becomes clear that Textual Realist suffers from intense stage fright and is entirely unable to address the scores of admirers waiting for him to begin his performance" "Sirius RPer has had too much to drink and tries his best to delay the inevitable moment when it will become clear that he not only can't get it up but currently lacks the small-muscle coordination to deal effectively with buttons and zippers" etc.  This is why I dont role play, Im not as verbally creative... "Shakes head at her lack of knowledge.."
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
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06-28-2009 23:39
From: Yumi Murakami Ok, but who's writing the story? How do I know I'll like the story? If the teacher's story involved me being a bumbling goof, what if I don't like that? Just leave? Why? The teacher is no better than me, did nothing to earn that position. What's going on? please see Angelique's post for the answer to those questions.... rp is generally a coopertive environment, and any egalitarian values are generally decided by group consensus. it's a lot like childrens theatre... it's not so much about about who's most qualified for what; it's about who shows up and is willing to play a part. (and truth be told, the part of "teacher" in those RP's is generally onerous and boring, it's like playing a permanent supporting role, where your decisions and actions are largely fixed and have no real meaning to the overall story. but by all means if you think you have a better method, discuss it with the people running the game or filling those roles... and then demonstrate your ability... if you have recognizable skill over what's already available most groups are happy to nominate you to the position... just beware that this can lead to type casting, which can become it's own boring hell, of playing the same part forever with no character development or meaning for you.)
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Ephraim Kappler
Reprobate
Join date: 9 Jul 2007
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06-29-2009 00:30
From: Yumi Murakami Ok, but who's writing the story? Everyone is involved in 'writing the story' to some degree through their attitudes and actions. The quality of roleplay is entirely dependent on the sum of the various players' abilities. From: Yumi Murakami How do I know I'll like the story? You don't but most RP sims and groups provide an outline for potential players to get some idea what the story is about. If you don't like the Western genre, don't join a Western RP group, for instance. Also I would imagine it is entirely up to you to introduce a vein of action, behaviour or attitude within the scenario that increases your enjoyment - if that is not already present, of course. From: Yumi Murakami If the teacher's story involved me being a bumbling goof, what if I don't like that? RP sims and groups usually offer players a choice of roles so you get to decide who your character is and determine how he or she behaves. There may be some logical limitations - how many kings of queens or even teachers can you have in a sim, for instance? All the same, if the teacher treats you like a bumbling goof, I would imagine it is up to you to deal with that (ie. play along or show them that you aren't a bumbling goof). Beyond that, the question of liking or not liking the development is a personal issue, which some sims and groups attempt to address by supplying lists of rules and encouraging players to identify their limitations. My personal opinion is that a good roleplayer should be able to identify the limits of other players while projecting their own without having to be that explicit. Good rapport is the whole point of RP. From: 3Ring Binder your world, their imagination. That's about the length and breadth of it.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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06-29-2009 00:41
From: Yumi Murakami I went to several places that were role-playing "classes". Classes in being a ninja, classes in dancing, classes in magic, etc. All of these had similar formats: people stood around using scripted items (swords, poseballs, etc) while an "instructor" walked around and occasionally told people they were doing things wrong or badly. Everyone is different, first of all. You of course realise that? Possible reasons people would take a class include: To learn To enjoy a social atmosphere To participate in group activities, bonding with the people in that group and creating/maintaining friendships/contacts within that group Why would they accept authority? They may not agree with your viewpoint which was apparently that the teacher "wasn't any good" They may relish the chance to practise their skills, without risking losing roleplay points in a combat scenario - basically, sparring, in classroom context In the case of dancing, as with RL dance class perhaps they hoped to meet someone for romantic reasons, and could care less what the teacher did or said, as that was not their primary concern. But also as with combat it might've been a mere chance to practise Some people enjoy feedback Some people do not enjoy responsibility or more work especially in SL, some come here to NOT have responsibility and to be entertained and/or relax. No pressure. I disagree with you that being a student is "submissive" - look how much students did in the 1960s for instance. The absence of protest, however, is not implicit submission or de facto agreement with everything the teacher subscribes to. I could also suggest, lighten up it was just a class and if they were having fun, why do you care?
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Rock Vacirca
riches to rags
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
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06-29-2009 00:44
RP is very much in the mind of its participants. In SL we are indeed restricted by what aids are available. In the case you quote the poseballs did not have a random 'get it right, get it wrong' function (poseball makers, take note). So, we have to fill in the gaps with our own mental interpretation of the scene. Even in RL, in dom/sub situations, if a dom wishes to take offence, even when the sub has committed no offence, they will ("what do you mean, 'Yes Miss', how dare you 'Yes Miss' me!!"  . The beauty of RP is that when you do eventually find your niche, it can be very rewarding indeed. You can also venture outside of your comfort zones, and try other roles, (dom/sub switching is very common). In our Ancient Egyptian themed sim we have have an heirarchy from the Pharaoh, through the Queen, Ladies of the Court, various dignitaries, special roles (such as Story-Teller, Councillor) etc, to Hand-Maidens, (and wannabe Handmaidens, who start as Neophytes, then to Acolytes). We have various ceremonies as people progress through the heirarchy, and all positions are open to all [except Pharaoh, well, I do pay the bills  ], and we all enjoy it immensely. The RP is all ad hoc, ad lib, and takes us into amazing directions. We have had palace intrigues, factions, dark periods, coups, and some of the most beautiful stories told. Each Lady of the Court (and they change from time to time, naturally) is responsible for the dress code, and color scheme for her House withing the Palace (four houses, Ankh, Djed, Ma'at and Scarab) and so each member of a House is instantly recognisable, and the costumes are incredible, and change as a new Lady of the Court assumes her role (good excuse for them all to go shopping again). We also change theme occasionally, when the mood takes us. We have had Masquerade Balls (which some on this list have attended) under the Giza Pyramid (which rises out of the sand when commanded), and we might decide to get into our Merman/Mermaid outfits and explore the underwater grotto, while trying to avoid the attack sharks, and try to prise the treasure away from the watchful eye of the Giant Squid and the magical Djinni that protect it. All good fun, and I have made several RL friends through our RP. Love it. Rock
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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06-29-2009 00:51
Besides, being a Dominant does not mean stopping learning, or never listening to anyone else again. The best ones are humble.
Just thought I'd add that, too.
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
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06-29-2009 00:52
I recall us talking briefly about this in world several months ago, Yumi, Sorry to hear this is still a point of difficulty.  I regularly go to HardKnock Elementary, which is a RP environment with students and teachers. Camp HardKnock also features a camper/counselor dynamic, and Kid Scouts has a scout/troop leader dynamic. The difference between these and what you've encountered is that we don't often use simply poseball/animation type stuff in our RP, but involve the build tools, creative writing, "fingerpainting" using programs like ArtRage, etc. Nevertheless, those of us in a student/camper/scout role are obviously in a somewhat subservient position to the teachers/counselors/troop leader. best I can say is that the motivation is in the story one can weave. A teacher can given an assignment, and we can make it something engaging to our avatar and the story overall. We'll have obstacle courses and team events at camp that can actually challenge *and* provide an experience for those involved. At scouts, we earn those badges *and* are able to "create story" with those in a "leadership" role. A lot of it is the interplay, and taking RL cues from each other. The teachers and all are usually really good, though there have been some over time that were not so engaging. If anything, you'll find you gravitate to those who you can RP off of. This is probably part of why my class at HKE was always so full: our teacher, Miss Jill, was great to RP with, and a good leader to boot!
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
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06-29-2009 00:54
In a roleplay environment it always takes an interchange. The 2nd person can always decide to not play along. There are myriad options by way of response.
One option would be to play the Village Idiot who understands nothing said or done around them, and no, I did not mean that to anyone in particular! (Roleplaying that might be fun actually)
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
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06-29-2009 00:56
From: Melita Magic In a roleplay environment it always takes an interchange. The 2nd person can always decide to not play along. There are myriad options by way of response.
One option would be to play the Village Idiot who understands nothing said or done around them, and no, I did not mean that to anyone in particular! (Roleplaying that might be fun actually) "The fool" in some Shakespeare plays was often one of the wiser characters. King Lear, for one.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
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06-29-2009 01:05
From: Marianne McCann "The fool" in some Shakespeare plays was often one of the wiser characters. King Lear, for one. Very good point.  And gets to comment on everything...
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