What is the motivation to play a (non-sexual) submissive/supporting role?

That is what I said, Yumi. "ARE YOU" is a question, it means "IF you are..."

You also have not answered most of my questions to you, I notice.

No, it isn't the same thing to disagree as to ignore answers, you're right. But I wasn't talking about when you disagree. I was talking about when you just do not reply to a post someone has labored over, or to their further attempts downthread to explain it another way. (Yes you might reply to part of a post, but often not the point in the post, or the pertinent questions. Instead you repeat your OP in different wording for pages on end.)

I'm not sure why, but it seems you just cling stubbornly hoping for a magic word that will make things clearer for you but also that you will not elaborate or elucidate your own questions/concerns. For instance how many times now have I requested some specifics and details as to the incident that seems to be the topic here?

There seems to be a specific incident that you witnessed, that's bothering you. I do not know which sim it was on. I do not know what you mean, quite, by 'roleplay school.' I do not know why you are saying their actions have no point. Rather than stating your own viewpoint as empirical fact why not give some details so we can assess things ourselves. Especially since your own assessment seems to have you spinning in circles.

It also doesn't help matters if you become petulant at the people who spend time trying to help you. Although you're right, no one is forcing them to keep trying.

So again, would you describe in detail what happened, rather than leaving out the details and posting solely the conclusion (then asking for ours)?

But it's a question that asks me to agree or deny a point already made - not an open question. And after people have complained that "I keep disagreeing or arguing against what people say", for them to post questions where I _have_ to disagree and answer with "no" or else I'm agreeing that I should give up.. again, notable that they seem to be engineering the response that they complained about, presumably in order that they can justify a dismissal further down the track.



That's because in most cases I can't give more detail. I am not aware of what the arrangements were - only, in some cases, what they weren't. I don't want to post details that might allow the RPs to be identified because at least one person involved has previously been very offended by my discussing them on the forums. And, moreover, if I do post details then I'm just inviting the response "well, don't do that specific thing, then, do something else". To avoid that dismissal, I want to focus on global rules that would apply to the general structure whatever I was doing.



Again, assuming that people will only help me if they are forced, whereas they will help others freely. Even that very assumption is what I'm concerned about.

I guess the jump was too low for me: I was reading your questions in a general sense.

The short answer is it seems you were dealing with a crap roleplayer.

Mind you, having read your posts to this thread and others you have posted to in the past, it strikes me you aren't very well suited to roleplaying. I don't mean to be offensive but you do seem to require a great deal of qualification and argument in order to get even the most basic points others make - if you get them at all. That must be quite a setback in an RP scenario because there just isn't the time or the flexibility for verbose discussion.

I don't see why you say I require argument to "get the basic points". That's not true at all; it's only when those basic points are contrary to my experience, or when they are dismissals wearing whiskers.

Angelique! ZOMG! It's good to see you here again. The Gor threads have missed both your authority and your wit

*happy dance*
.

I understand that in the context of the forums but are you likely to evaluate chat in an RP situation in a similar way?

well yes, usually the person footing the bill for the sim gets to control it. There are some RP areas run by groups of people who share costs as well, and usually some delegation of powers in that scenario.

However, and perhaps my experiences are atypical, But I've found in most RP situations there are far more victims/subservient members than there are Dominant/aggressor types. Finding people to take the leadership roles can be hard! I attribute this to the fact people have so many things in their everyday lives they have to manage and be in control of, that it's nice to take the back seat in their fantasy lives. I know for me this can be true.

Well, um, are you likely to be telling me things that are clearly false for me, or trying to get out of the conversation at all costs, in an RP situation?

Which is fair, yes - but it doesn't explain why anyone else turns up to play in the sim, knowing there won't be control.



That's interesting, but I was more talking about new RPs starting up. Although I would also very much like to understand why so many BDSM items in SL are created by submissives!

Well again, because most probably don't want the control. They want to have fun. And having fun doesn't necessarily mean you need control. Look at it this way, if you're steering the car, you know where you're heading. If you're along for the ride, there's a new surprise around every bend.




Hmm because we know what we like? LOL XD

Sure, but then we get back to the problem of - how does the teacher know that telling someone they're doing something wrong will be fun for them?



It just always seemed discongruent that the submissives could exercise such major control by choosing what features to include in the items the dominants were using.

In an RP situation I would be trying to work out literally who and what you are playing at in the course of our chat - without recourse to a lengthy discussion or listing of rules and limits: working off the hoof so to speak. The trick would be for both of us to avoid taking it very personally and to find a balance or rapport whereby we might develop the action.

The trouble is that isn't to everyone's taste. Some folk like to have firm rules and well-defined limits to work around, others don't have the patience for either and quite a few just are not cut out for RP in the first place.

actually that's SOP for many types of RP... collaboration behind the scenes.


remember that part about adding to the story? yes, there are poseballs to hop on, and they don't really do anything... so perhaps as demonstration you could go beyond the simple props and make some of your own (it also helps to dress the part?) just because there are some props provided for free, doesn't mean those are the only props to use. creativity is valued.

Well they don't. Ephraim Kappler put it well in the post above. Some things may not be to everyone's taste. But more realistically, I wouldn't expect that your example was meant to be fun, but more to enhance the illusion that teaching is going on. If everyone was perfect at what they were doing, they wouldn't need teaching, would they?

It's sort of like why do 'Virtual' Televisions studios have microphone and camera props? they don't do anything do they? They are there for atmosphere and to enhance the illusion.




well, it's not like we don't take suggestions on features. But it's not unusual to see that the submissive role does exert a lot of influence over the tone and pace of play. Even in a D/s relationship, there is still the unavoidable fact that at the core, it is a consensual relationship. Anything else would be criminal.

Yes, but that means everything just comes back down to artistic talent again.

But then again.. we get back to the original question.. that they aren't really a teacher, so if being told that they're making a mistake isn't fun, why are they putting up with it?



Oh, sure, it's consensual.. but I also always thought that surprise/suspense were an important part of it, and if the sub has had to program everything in advance, there isn't a great deal of that, surely?

Because it's part of the roleplay.




All I can say is, it can't be explained, it must be experienced. There is far to many things to a relationship that trying to outline every possible permutation of every possible reaction to every possible event is just, well, why would you want to do that?

Life can't be reduced to ones and zeros. No matter how much people may strive for that. And really I hope those striving never succeed. What kind of world would it be if a computer could do everything a person could, or predict exactly what people would do in any given situation with 100% certainty? Would the need for biological life cease to exist then? Now there's something to ponder!

You seem to want to find core reasons for why people do what they do, but honestly many times people themselves don't know that answer. I would urge you to spend less time trying to understand what motivates people (less, not no time at all mind you) and spend more time just accepting things for what they are and enjoying them as they come.

But wouldn't that make the teacher an ass, because they are putting someone in a situation where they have to go along with something they don't enjoy due to social pressure?



This is exaggeration, the people who have been able to get into these positions without being asses do not have their interactions reduced to ones and zeroes, so why would it be necessary? Why can't I just be told what they know?

Someone took the time to set up the community, not to mention pay the rent on the land (and/or purchase costs on the land).

The one who owns the hockey equipment usually has at least a little more say than those who are just there to use it...

Also, given the intent of setting up a heirarchical structure, someone does need to be 'in charge' for the same reasons I stated earlier.

Turn that around a bit.. why do some people learn better from hard line instructors and keep coming back for more lessons?

You are missing a very important aspect of RP here. In RP, ANYONE is as good as they are accepted as being. The instructor is *not* worse at anything because they are accepted as being the instructor and more skilled/knowledgable.

If noone takes on that role, you do not have a dojo, or clan, or any other structured environment.

You also do not have opposition, which is a very important thing for maintaining entertainment levels.

In RP you cannot impress an instructor simply by saying you do everything right, since that is literally as easy as saying you do everything right. For there to be a challenge, you need to actually impress the instructor, or alternatively, impress enough of your fellow students that they believe in your abilities more than those of the instructor.



Because good acting is not that easy to teach... it has to come from the heart, from inside. Some concepts are not easily explained, they must be developed by doing, and some will be content just to play along with being the inept student, some will play along treating it as a joke, but that they would be much more capable in a 'real' duel (being an excellent combatant rather than an excellent student), and some will simply find it is not for them and leave.

Much like in the Real World.... without the risk of actual physical injury, and with the benefit of being potentially able to do things that you could never do physically in RL.

Including being part of something bigger than yourself.

I did already address this point - just because they have paid for the land does not create amy obligation in other people to show up. If I'm not enjoying being your student, I'm not going to stick around just because you own the land. So although it might be fair as a justification in moral terms, it doesn't explain what others gain from participating.

No it doesn't, but you keep assuming that there is nothing but abuse, that the students never 'learn.'

And I did explain what the others gain.. they gain a chance to prove themselves. If they were able to simply all be masters on the first night, or even in the first month, that would not be much of a challenge, would it?

Ok, but we are still begging the question- why are they so accepted? Especially if they weren't invited? Just because they blew their own trumpet? And, building/owning the environment is just another form of trumpet blowing - why should you be the one who gets that control, after all?



Not true. The teacher could be NPCd, offscreened, trouped....



If the teacher has authority to just make stuff up, and there is no resolution system, then you have opposition you can never defeat unless they let you win.

There is nothing to learn. It's a poseball. Any error or difficulty is artificially injected by the teacher. They are pushing you down, not building you up.



It isn't a challenge to make someone make something different up. They have free will.

I said nothing of the kind.

I agree with Ephraim that possibly roleplay is not something you will 'get' - I recall one of your first threads asked about where to find good roleplay sims. It went on to complain a lot about existing ones. (Don't read judgment into that - I am just stating this matter of factly.) After all this time you're still wondering what roleplay is and why you can't understand it or why others enjoy what you would not find enjoyable.

I tried to answer you in a very practical way - IF you do not find it enjoyable, then why do you want to participate? Why does it concern you if others do enjoy it? Other than perhaps a bit of envy? Since they seem to have fun and you are not having fun, and wish you could join in AND have the fun they are having? You admitted it's a wistful longing rather than a gripe so - okay, fair enough. But asking why it is fun over and over, isn't going to illuminate things for you. Especially not if you are at sixes and sevens with every reply you get.

It seems a pattern in which you misinterpret things people say, clinging to a word here or there which ignores the overall point they are trying to make. I don't know if it is perhaps a language or translation problem. But bottom line, you twist things badly, and even take helpful attempts as some sort of insult or attack. And it's consistent it isn't just now and then the wires get crossed.

On top of all of that you consistently refuse to give information that could help those trying to help YOU. I highly doubt anyone would guess which RP sim it is, unless you named names. There are scads of RP sims of every category within Second Life. But you don't have to give identifying details. Also it's a bit insulting that you assume how people will react and use that as a reason to not give any pertinent information to describe just what you saw and what was going on.

From your description, people were using props, and roleplaying. Someone was teaching, others were learning. In your view, no actual learning was going on, and so the students must have been oppressed. So we have a vague situation to go by which could describe any type of roleplay, and an assumption. You give us nothing to work with.

I take offense if you refer to me in some of the things you said to Ephraim. Strikes me you seem ungrateful when people DO reply to you and DO try to help. If I offer a practical solution that is not to discourage you but to sort of say why be miserable on purpose?

If your real question was "How can I enjoy the roleplay the way others were?" I answered that too - that type of roleplay in which you are not in control may not be for you. you seem hung up on issues of who is in control and whether they 'deserve' it. But you've missed something in that too: In ANY consensual submissive/Dominant relationship, the sub is as much in control as the Dominant is! And by prior agreement and with basic outlined limits and maybe even a rough goal. But it sounds like you attended a swordsmanship class or some sort. Not a D/s school. So again, I'm puzzled.

(But since you're stuck on 'teacher/student' - well, in school, were the teachers always wonderful? No, but they had the position, so students went along or flunked out.) Everything in life isn't always perfect. But I think in this case you're missing the PRETEND aspect - not that it exists, or even that the fun of it exists, but the WHY - but people have answered that, too.

(Also again as Ephraim and others said, a certain amount of the 'fun' is the ability to act and improvise - which requires listening well, and quick interpretation and resetting of 'goals' or 'direction' if necessary. Those are, to some extent, inborn talents. And that would be for any type of roleplay: It isn't all scripted, only an outline. The rest is where a lot of the fun is: cooperative pretending. Acting.)

But then, others keep telling you also, that the students relinquished authority to the teacher, and you ignore their answer. You think it's obvious but want to know why. People have answered that also: Some enjoy it. I told you that right off the bat. AND I told you why. Yet you keep asking. When will you be satisfied?

The above is NOT meant as a criticism, by the way. I am literally asking - what answer will satisfy you? Your question has been answered over and over again.