Goodbye Everyone

Today was the final straw. A request by someone for help with removing a Nazi display from near his parcel was met with ridicule and finally locked by Strife Onizuka - not because it was off-topic but because it broke Forum rules on displaying Nazi symbols. Did she even bother to read the thread? I really don't know because she hasn't replied to the PM I sent her. She has referred it to Linden Review - well good - perhaps they will point out to her that her reason for closing it was nonsense, given the thread content. She could simply have removed the picture.

Another forum member used the locked thread for a bit of grandstanding. His opening post on a subject that has been done to death contained inaccuracies - note I say inaccuracies, not an opinion with which I disagree - in fact I did agree with much of what he posted. I clearly offended him by pointing out 1) that the thread to which he referred had not been locked because it had gone off-topic. I strongly suspect he knew that anyway; 2) that he had attributed a quotation to the wrong person. Although he replied to every other person that posted, he ignored me.

Petty (of me) you may think, but I have to confess that ever since I was attacked by someone in the Forum a few months ago, I've held back from posting anything serious. I am sick, housebound and in constant pain in RL - I don't need more grief in the virtual world.

I have just logged on to find that my post telling everyone that the Nazi items had been removed in world had evoked the ire of one of our great libertarians. Someone should tell him that the price of eternal freedom is eternal vigilance.

I am a Jew. I am offended by the glorification of the Nazi regime and I told him so. I see he has responded, but I have not read his post nor that of the person who told him he had struck "Forum Gold" with his dig at me. She has also responded. Call me a coward but I really can't cope with any more cruelty or any cheap shots - and there is a great deal of both in these forums. There is a great deal of fun and wisdom too, and I shall miss that, and I shall miss so many of you, but I'm going. This isn't like Sinatra's retirement - I shan't creep back in a couple of weeks. I looked to see if there were some way to unsubscribe, but regrettably not.

Doubtless this post will provoke a great deal of mirth and mockery - and it will run and run and go way off-topic, but somehow I don't think Strife will be closing it any time soon. Except of course I used the word Nazi - hmm good job I'm going before I'm banned.

Let me leave you with this posting, made earlier today (not by me, I hasten to add). I'm sure the poster thinks of himself as tolerant. I agree - if tolerant means "I'm all right Jack so the world can screw itself".

Sorry, but somehow I can only agree with the post you quoted. If people dress up as child avatars and engage in consensual sexual roleplay, on their own land, why should I care? What right would I have to care or be offended? Same with people who reenact the Third Reich on their own land, among themselves, in a consensual way. Why should I and how could I care? If they take their RP into a public shopping mall, it's another thing.

We are all offended by something. Personally, I don't like to look at a swastika too. That's why I only visit places where there aren't any. What offends me just as much is a christian cross. A cross reminds me of witch burnings and the torture chambers of the spanish inquisition. But I learned to tolerate it, even as an atheist who would have been tortured and killed by the Catholics a few centuries ago. As long as they behave these days, they can put up their crosses in their churches and homes or even in their front garden for all I care. They can even reenact some witch burnings as long as the roleplay is consensual and the witches are having fun. Only if they start to misbehave again, I'll be the first one to stand up and demand legal actions against them. Against the persons, not against their harmless signs.

I was never too much for preferencial treatment based on a person's heritage.

I agree with Conan.

This is not the real world. The virtual Nazi's can't snatch Poland for fun, and the virtual age-player's can't snatch your kids for fun either.

Chill babes. x



...I said Nazi once, and snatch twice. Take offence

First of all, the so called "Nazi Symbol" is called a swastika, and in it's self does not have an evil or negitive meaning. The percetion that this symble has a negitive meaning did not come till the 1920's when the Nazi party adopted it for it's symble.



The previous was copied form Wikipedia. So really the swastika in it's self is not bad and should not be banned, it's true meaning is "Well-Being", hardly an evil meaning. Problem is a rather questionable group of people chose to adopt the symbel and now it has two contexts in which it can be used, that or hate and that or it's traditional meaning. Please remember that symbolism like language is often perverted by people and usually towards to negitive. The swastika and the pentagram are among the most famous, so you know what when I see these I don't show disgust to the symbol, I show it to the person who displays it in negitive context.

I always felt the thing to do with hate groups - wannabe Nazis in particular - would be not to ban their displays, but to designate the individuals involved and their works fair game for griefing.

Think about that. What good fun we're all missing because that possibility was overlooked. Caging Storm Troopers. Snuffing Nazi sims with billions of replicating Stars of David. It would probably have been so much fun LL would have had to hire people to impersonate hate groups after we all had such a rousing good time driving them out of SL and got really bummed because there weren't any left. In fact, maybe it's still not too late?...

I stand by the intent on any comments I made on the issue. I have to allow hateful speech and symbolism or else my right to be offended or outraged is cheapened. I truly believe that. If the way I stated them were offensive to the Op, or anyone else, I deeply regret that. There is too much meanness in the real world, and increasingly more here as well. But I do believe the best way to fight these types of people is to give them their plaxe to be heard, so we can all see how evil they are. Suppressing them or denying they existed in the past serves merely to glorify and mystify them.

bye

Irrelevant and misleading.

The meaning of symbols, not unlike the meaning of words, changes with time. A symbol, like a word, is nothing but what people think it is -- the word "green" only corresponds to a particular physical property because people think it does. There's nothing inherent in the word itself that makes it so.

At one time, the swastika symbolized well-being. It no longer does. It now symbolizes Nazism.

It still does to some people. There are lots of groups trying to reclaim the symbol.

That's rather a silly effort, not unlike attempting to reclaim the word "gay" as "happy."

Best of luck to them, I suppose, but they need more than luck. They need a miracle, and then some.

Regardless, the symbol does not currently mean "well-being." It means "Nazi." That's just the way it is, as the song says.

thats fine - the place to do so might be in the larger world rather than the confines of a micro-cosm like Second Life.

Second Life would be the perfect place to do it. Small audience that you can answer specific questions for. No need to print material to distribute and "get in people's faces" about. You can put the information out there and interact with people about the issue faster than the "larger world".

Of course a black swasticka in a white circle on a red field isnt exactly of questionable intent. Reguardless of the twisted cross itself having another meaning.

I"m a jew as well and dont like seeing that stuff and didn't see the thread (tend to stay away from certain subject lines due to the flamage the sometimes invoke). Anyhow being a jew or non jew and dealing with such racists stuff ingame should not be an issue even to those busy putting the stuff up. So I guess I dont understand he has his freedom to hate who he wishes lol and you have your freedom to say something about it if we are supposedly using free speech as a ruler here. Thankfully and yes I do actually thank my country for this law where I live free speech is not a freedom we are allowed to have and people think that's silly but free speech is not always a good thing. So even if the thread is locked I guess for me I would rather see some moderation then none even if mistakes are made. The fact is there is a human doing the moderation and maybe they skimmed it or whatever but I would rather that then the opposite happening.

Last week some guy commented on people coming out and saying they are whatever it is society has a dislike for and jews are in fact one of them and the myths will never be totally dispelled and his coment was that if you come out and say what you are and dont hide it your somehow guilty of bringing on the rath of the sect that hates you. I think he meant it too lol. So i would rather see stuff locked then see views like that expressed as some people are more impressionable then others and younger in mind then others and will submit to peer pressure and read and believe dribble like that.

Anyhow theer is all kinds of hatred in the world I learned to just ignore the haters and move on really.

so good luck but dont let a locked thread bother you I wouldn't

I disagree - what Second Life would be is the perfect place where the media can have a new witch-hunt about Swastikas.

Theres a difference between preferential treatment and compassion, though.

I'll say this: I personally have NO problem with people trying to reclaim the swastika, even within SL. I don't see any reason to prevent that, even though I'm pretty sure LL doesn't allow it.

I think their efforts are utterly hopeless, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should be allowed to try.

See its people like you who pull out the wiki and crap that dont take into mind what is real and stuff. Things change over time and the fact of the matter the swastika was adopted by the natzi party and to this day remains a symbol of the party which still exists and means something in this connection and everyone knows it. The background of the symbol etc is totally irrelevant its what it was made into that is.

This happens with words and symbols all the time get used to it as its called evolution and EVERYTHING evolves from what it was to what it is now so that nice definition is fine but that doesn't mean that is what it means to 99.999999% of the population.

I dont see anyone arguing over celebrating christmas as being the birth of christ which it is not its a pagan ritual which evolved over times so remember that next time you pull out the wiki because theer are a million and one things that change over the years and that is one of them

/sigh

You should go start telling Hindus right away that they can't use that symbol to mean luck anymore then.

if its black on a red background I would agree maybe they can change it to the symbol they actually use

bottom line you put it up with the colours and in the same fashion as the natzi party that is what it is the natzi party symbol

use it appropriately and take out those colours and display it properly and not use the natzi party colours and stick pictures of hitler up in some cases at the same time then we can talk however the stuff i have seen in this game is clearly natzi party stuff.

Again the symbol was adopted by them in a certain manner display it that way there is no denying what it is.

Also be prepared to realize that this symbol means a lot of things to a lot of people and be prepared to deal with that issue which will evoke an emotional response despite what you 'say' it is

I was having this discussion over use of a word one day and someone decided to pull out a dictionary and I said the dictionary is irrelevant what surfur surfs the net with a dictionary open looking up every word. The answer is NONE the word which had evolved over time took on new meanings and you must deal with the reality of the new meanings despite what the present dictionary says. IN years to come that meaning will be added to the dictionary

and I am pretty sure you can find under the definitions of the use of the swastika that it was adopted as their symbol and displayed as a black cross on a red background and that is their party symbol. Its undeniable.

If you want to educate the way to do it is with a little more tact then errrecting a giant swastika in the middle of a lot which might offend people. That's not how its done all that this does is grandstand people SEE the symbol and react they wont stop to worrry about its meaning and look it up in a dictionary the will react and that is that and the fact is that a group of people turned a symbol for another purpose

again that's the reality of the thing and it has to be dealt with that way or all you will do is offend and upset people if you refuse to deal with it appropriately and come into a thread and spout stuff like this to say that it doesn't mean that because it started out as something else fine but it doesn't speak to the issue of what it was used for later on and what it STILL MEANS which is that its the official symbol of the natzi party to this day.

sorry to burst your bubble flaunt it inappropriately instead of doing what people say they are doing and educate you will invoke this response its the reality of what the symbol has become. Say anything else and its just rationalization ...

Hey, people can do whatever they feel like doing. If you want to adopt the Confederate flag, the swastika and a skull-and-crossbones as your own personal symbols for love, peace and goodwill, feel free! While you're at it, I happily invite you to call all red things "blue," refer to an airplane flight as "falling," and call making love "belching."

Do it! Do whatever you feel like. Just, here's the thing: the overwhelming majority of people are going to misunderstand you. Badly. I don't know what color the sky is on your planet, but here on Earth, we all either use symbols and words in the generally agreed-upon ways, or we're misunderstood and have no one to blame but ourselves.

*snickers* Thank you for reminding me of my Humanities Ideas professor! The first thing he'd do is walk into the room and lift up an chalkboard eraser and go, "This is a dog. From now on, in this class, you will refer to it as dog." Of course, he'd break it down to words being nothing more than symbols and such. I liked the class so much I failed it the first time just to take it again! (Seriously, he was very sick the first semester I took it, so he missed a lot. The temp teacher sucked at it, so I failed.)

One thing that class taught me was that most things, especially words and symbols only have as much power as we give them. I can choose not to let them have that power, thus, making them less than what they were/are. Only problem is that just because I chose not to, it doesn't mean a lot of people will chose not to. In fact, it's usually the opposite. *shrugs* A lot of misunderstandings between different religions/countries occur because things having differing meanings for them.

I am not saying that every context is right, but people tend to over react to symbolism reguardless of it's context. If I chose to put a swastica in the correct context on a wall among other symbols of well being, what do you think the reaction would be? I doubt it would be positive. How about a pentagram in the propper context? Please note there are people and belief systems that use these symbols correctly in the world where other choose to believe that they are "evil".

THE SYMBOLS ARE NOT EVIT OR BAD! IT IS THEIR CONTEXT THAT MAKES THEM GOOD OR BAD!

Nice display of ignorance there... the swastika means just what it always meant. It can still be found in Indian homes and businesses as a blessing and wish for luck, health and properity. It only designates "Nazi" to some Europeans who were directly affected by it and to revisionists....

Gay still means "happy", Queer still means "odd" and a Fag is still a bundle of sticks... just because SOME people want to change the meaning of words does not make it so....