Give mentors some power...

Today Gwynnie Boffin requested help because she had a griefer on the help Island. She requested a Linden. Atlwolf Blabbermouth and I joined her to support her and be a witness.

The griefer kept on griefing. I'm not a mentor to argue with griefers, but to help newbies.

So here's my proposal:
Make a cornfield (I've read about that, but I'm not sure if it exists)
If there are 3 mentors that agree an avatar is a griefer, give them a possibility to send the avatar to the cornfield for an hour. Also give an IP ban for 24 hours on the registration page so he cant make a new avatar.
On second offence, give him a 24 hour ban to the cornfield, and a 1 week ban on the registration page.
Something like that.

I wont spend my time trying to hush a griefer.. there are lots of ppl that need and appreciate help.
I'm not here as some volunteer negotiator. If a mentor reports a griefer, and request a Linden, a Linden should be there almost the same minute. If they cant do that, give the mentors some form of power...

Next time I'm mentoring and I meet a griefer, I wont even argue. Ill just teleport to another island or WA, or do something else.

Riffey's is good but would require some code, testing etc. This would just use exsiting functionality.
Make a "Mentor Lead" role in the Second Life mentor group and allow them to manage the land ban list. The land is already set to SecondLife Mentor. It might also help to allow them to return other resident's objects. We get mega prims, multiple prims with physics enabled and other such challanges.
Help Island is the new "Center of SecondLife". We got people trying to get in there in when the region is full. Let's not waste time talking to them. They can take it up with a Linden if they feel that have been unjustly banned form Help Island. My guess they will just go make a new alt.

Thanks, Riffey. Generally I can handle most would-be griefers just using the title and persistence, since most of them aren't there to cause enough trouble to get reported. People like this guy today, though, can really ruin the game for others, especially new players, who are already often confused and frustrated. I had to report him, which it takes a lot for me to do, and call a few times for Lindens, since he was getting way out of hand. Eventually Amber Linden made it to the "scene of the crime," though by the time she got there, the griefer had cooled it, so there wasn't much she could do.

In such cases, I've often wished I had an ability to remove inappropriate content or somehow back up my ignored requests to obey TOS and PG area rules with some real action. I spend 95% of my game time mentoring on HIP and if people ignore what I say about TOS, area rules, etc., there's not a whole lot I can do besides report and send up the Linden bat signal. I agree that having the ability to do something about these things would make it harder for griefers to get away with what they do, as well as cut down on the Lindens' running around.

I know there's a great potential for abuse with this sort of power, but I haven't yet met a mentor who was in the role on a power trip, so as a group, I'd tend to trust us. Even if there were something that was restricted to HI or orientation areas, it'd help. I lost about 8 people who genuinely needed my attention from HIP today while this griefer was pushing, cursing me out, and generally disrespecting me and the entire crowd. More to the point, it made it impossible for me to help the players who were abiding by TOS and there to get help. Interested to hear what others think about this.

G.

I agree!!!! With so many more newbies coming on at one time we need some way of controlling the griefers.

There was an article in the Herald about Mentor burn-out. This could be a big factor in people not wanting to help anymore?

Jen

Well intentioned, but dangerous. If there is some power to give, please don't apply it to the Mentor group as a whole. Increased power must be handled with responsibility, and while most Mentors I have met are very nice and helpful people there surely are those who can't judge their new powers correctly and might overreact or even abuse them. Any special powers should be restricted to the help and orientation islands, too.

Thanks for responding guys.

Zi: I agree, power has to be used carefully. That's why I suggested that 1 mentor on his own can't punish a griefer on his own. Maybe my own judgement has been blurred by the griefer.
If three mentors agree, then he is wothout any reasonable doubt a griefer.

Lots of games have kickvote features. I know it can be abused, so 3 mentors, and only after being together for 5 minutes, wearing their mentor tag. That gives some time to cool down.

I made up (remembered? ) the cornfield. Put some infoboxes there with rules and a simple form of the TOS. After 1 hour, inform the griefer that he can go back to the main grid. Register that he has been kicked once. Inform him that he can be kicked again, but that the next time it will be for 24 hours.
(apply a 24 hour IP ban on his IP adress so he cant just make a new avatar)

If he starts griefing again, there's but a small chance that he will meet the same mentors. So if he gets banned again, already 6 mentor have labeled him a griefer. He gets sent to the cornfield for 24 hours.
(apply a one week IP ban on his IP adress this time)

Add his name to a list. If he starts griefing again, get a Linden there asap and let him/her handle the situation.

This ability should only apply on help islands (and maybe welcome areas)

Pro's:
-New residents won't be scared away by abusive behaviour or language.
-Mentors have a way to handle griefers without having to call a Linden.
-Lindens will be bothered less by mentors asking for help.
-Mentors can concentrate on what they are there for: helping newbies.

I think all of us have had this conversation:
Mentor: Griefer, please stop doing this/saying that.
Griefer: Oh yeah? or else what? Huh? You cant do anything...

If it was just about me, I'd go somewhere else. But there are other newbies present, so I try to stay calm. But it can be SO frustrating...

While I agree that it's frustrating to be so powerless to do anything constructive about griefers, I'll have to toss a little water on the fire here by saying that I have personally met Mentors who I do not believe would handle that power responsibly, as they have handled similar power poorly as estate managers.

I'm not exactly sure what to do about the Mentors as a whole not having enough direct ability to deal with greifers, but if even one person poorly equipped to handle that kind of responsibility is given extended powers, it could go very badly.

That's why I proposed that at least 3 mentors should vote to ban...

I know I could get carried away and want to ban someone. But if I asked in the mentor group chat that I needed 2 more mentors chances that I would ban somebody for no good reason would diminish...

I like the idea personally, soon hopefully i will be a mentor, though my vollunteer index thing has been pending for the last month.

I want the power to squash griefers like a bug! Gimme gimme!

If there was immediate response by the Lindens I wouldnt have started this thread...
I KNOW they are very busy. But even then I dont want to spend 15 or 30 minutes of MY precious time arguing with griefers..
I don't get paid, I dont have extra priviliges. I have helped a lot of newbies over the last 2 years, even without being a mentor. But when I wasnt a mentor, I at least could call them names... Come to think of it: mentors have even less power then a normal person.. A normal player can ban, freeze, swear at or shoot a griefer...
I'm a volunteer, I like SL and I want to help. But not when I can't do anything about a griefer...

I wouldn't mind a little power in SL; being able to make things a better place is a good thing.

How ever if this system is to be built, it needs to be carefully structured with checks and balances. There will be conflict, there will be those who think they are always the victim; you will need to create some bureaucratic process to pacify them (this is something that LL is not that good at).

Normally, I would agree wholeheartedly with the push to get Mentors some kind of authority to enforce rules. I know we empower our staff on our Isle with such so they can deal with problem residents.

However, given my recent experience with someone who was accepted as a Mentor after being banned from several regions and communities for his extreme antisocial behavior, I can't, in good conscience, support such an initiative at this time. It would first require some due diligence on LL's part to be more stringent in reviewing potential applicants, and also having the fortitude to take those who violate the staff rules (which there are precious few; rules, that is) to task for their offenses.

It's a good idea, on paper, but with LL's continued apathy and aloofness concerning how they are managing SL (and continuing to become moreso every day), that's really where it should stay.

I agree to the fullest extent on this.

Despite only joining SL a week ago I have enjoyed speaking to others & even helpling a few. I have been griefed twice so far, one was quite funny as he demanded $100 to release me & even said please when I asked him! (still did not pay him though).

My point is if I became a mentor after 2 months I would not expect to be given full powers over the help island etc. that would be too much too soon. Why not have Trainee, Junior & Senior Mentors & give the powers to the Senior guys. That way I could work up the ranks and after a while be the proud bearer of a Senior mentor badge.

Just my thoughts.

How many times have you been the only Mentor on one of the Help Islands? Getting three Mentors together may be as difficult as finding a Linden. An individual Mentor, knowing the action will be reviewed, should be capable of logging off a grieffer. Abuse the privilege and you lose it.



I agree with the above. If a Mentor disciplines someone, it should be done only after two warnings. The first is asking the offender to stop. Second, would include notice of being evicted, if the behavior doesn’t stop through a notecard. Only then could the Mentor expel the individual. The mentor would then be required to AR the person and mention the expulsion.

The person should then be able to relog, after a brief timeout, back into the game. If they wish to AR the Mentor, so be it. The logs and AR would all be available for review. I doubt that many would.

While there will be Mentors who abuse the privilege, they would be few. The ability to discipline could be removed from them or they could be removed from the Mentor program.

Jen

I noticed in the postings the possibility of misuse of power etc. If mentors are chosen and handled correctly then I dont think this will happen. Quite a few years ago I was involved in a large online WW2 flying community. I was one of their Game Assistants which is the equivalent of a Mentor in SL. To get this role you applied for it in writing and signed a Non Disclosure Agreement before you were accepted. After sucessful training you gained a new account (AV) which was to be used only "on duty". This account had the ability to eject people, freeze them. plus as it had different sides you could swap at will. Your reward? Mainly helping people. But your main account became free so you in effect were paid for your services. In the few years I had this role I never ejected anyone. I found any dispute could be handled with reason.

The point is a group of effectively unpaid members can provide an effective but resposible method of reducing what we term griefing in these key areas like HI.

The problem is, Mentors are neither trained, selected or supervised in any way. The only criteria is to have a clean record on Linden Lab's file.

That's why I dont want 1 single mentor to have that power...
You would need 3 mentors to send an avatar to the cornfield. I dont think all 3 would be abusing their power..
And we wouldnt ban them... just a 1 hour warning....

lol, this was 2 pages of "I agree mentors should have power" and then "but not that much power" rofl...

You're all arguing on the specifics which is a waste of time IMHO because it's up to the lindens to determine those.

Really the only thing you can do now is get someone from linden labs to read this topic.

Not much point in continuing the discussion.

2 cents

Happy SLing

I will say this. Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. These griefers are alts (I'd say most of the time) and know what a mentor can and cannot do. Yes, the power to eject a griefer would be nice, but in the long run, who's really to say who can eject whom? Nobody but a Linden. That's the way it should be. You should first AR the rodent and then contact the Lindens. If one's not available, you still have the AR on your side. First and foremost, AR.
The power struggle has been a topic since I first rez'd. It will be a topic LONG after I derez. Rely on AR. You're a mentor and that carries some clout. If anything, a Mentor AR should go to the top of the queue to resolve the issue more quickly and as mentors, I think we should know the partial outcome. "Your AR has been resolved, and AVATAR NAME has been placed on suspension for X Days."
This would give us at least a feeling of a job well done. Right now, and always, there doesn't seem to be any appreciation.

Ok. I'd agree with Sky that maybe we'd be able to have a bit more tracking ability on abuse reports but --

Also I'd have to say that I'd be against mentors getting eject or even cornfield powers. Even by vote.

First, I want to say that I've been a mentor for three years. In that time I've seen a lot of ideas pop up of who should be a pariah, what shouldn't be tolerated, and the growing effect of 'groupthink' on those ideas. There was a time when you could probably get three people to agree that kicking someone for wearing prim hair was probably a good idea.

I'm the last person on earth to even throw a scrap to griefers - I still deal with them daily: but I also see newbies who are simply confused being given the short end of the stick because they simply don't know the etiquette or even the controls of SecondLife yet.

Re: Votes - if you have small subgroups -- which tend to form in larger groups like the Mentor group -- they essentially operate as one person. Buddies will often almost without fail vote as 'one'.

It's a real quick jump from granting such powers and getting newly formed 'vigilante squads' just waiting to 'use' their power.

Also, as Zi mentioned, there's no governance of enforcement criteria. Whether LL is actually impartial or not in ejects/kicks/bans, they do operate under one company policy on it; giving mentors this capability would likely add a few more policy 'ideals' to the mix. You'd have inconsistency in enforcement to say the least, as one person's idea of what is acceptable varies from mentor to mentor.

LL would have to answer to these discrepancies -- simply granting access to five "helpers" in Luskwood has me fielding several "he said she saids" a day... I can't imagine what the influx would be if having to do this kind of arbitration on a scale as large as the mentor group.

There are better ways (albeit probably a little less immediately personally satisfying) to handle these kinds of situations than 'handing everyone a bigger stick'.

Newbies are generally confused, possibly have the wrong idea of what SL is, clumsy, sometimes even rude - but the last thing they need is to be met by a 'judge and jury' upon entering the world.

Put yourself in a new person's shoes for a minute: To them, the world is possibly more overwhelming than when you started. You're dropped off rather unceremoniously into the HI's, and yeah, you may screw up a few times before you understand what SecondLife is about.

Do you really want the hammer of God to come down on you when you're just trying to get your bearings?

I've seen plenty of people flagged by 'the mob' as 'griefers' simply because they haven't figured out walking or flying, and are slamming into / pushing into people.

This isn't to say that there aren't griefers on the HI's -- there sure as hell are. But I really think that giving mentors powers wil do little more than cause those types to just bait them. Getting banned is a small price compared to the 'reward' they get from riling you up. It's the griefer's "cost of doing business".

Also: think about it for a minute - even as a Mentor, how would you feel if, say, the LiveHelp group could summarily cornfield you as long as three of their buddies agreed. Would you be so sure that it'd never be abused? Would you even know what your recourse would be if it was?

The best approach may be -something- like an abuse report management tool, or a reputation system. But such things would certainly ultimately have to be moderated, and I know that's not something LL wants to get into any time soon.

Though if something like this (mentor powers) does go through, I'd say be prepared to have to live up to MUCH higher standards than other folks on the grid. (I realize to some extent, mentors already do, but that's become a bit more 'flexible' in the past years.) --

Getting this may result in something like Mentors only having one 'strike' instead of three; or open and viewable (and possibly actionable?) feedback by any resident.

LL isn't one to give a group of residents power without there being a 'check' in place on the other side. If you get the power to police, chances are LL would grant the public the ability to police you. And both of those sides can be gamed.

This sounds a lot closer to a Liaison role in SL, than a Mentor role.

What's stopping a griefer applying for lots of free basic alts, immediately enrolling each for a mentor position, and in three months when Jeska approves of their applications, using them to send everybody they can to this cornfield for an hour?

I know of several mentors whose behaviour can be borderline griefy and I recall a certain incident a few months ago when one was handing out genitals on Help Island and orbiting customers from a well known store. If mentor applications are approved in direct proportion to the exploding population, such abuse can only get more common because regulation of the mentoring system will be increasingly difficult.