Give mentors some power...

And Riffey, dude, you prolly won't remember me, but even though I'm disagreeing with your position here, I do recall that you were a fabulous mentor during my early days in SL. Cross dressing to prove a point that you can't even trust the RL gender of an avatar particularly sticks in my mind. LOL.

Very very well written. Everyone reading should pay attention to Michi, who has written a very good analysis of why this idea could cause more problems than it solves.

Name sounds very familiar And erm... the cross dressing... shhht! Don't tell

I wasn't a mentor then, I have been helping noobs just for fun as long as I've been in SL.
That's one of the reasons I started this thread. When I'm wearing the mentor tag I have to stick to the mentor rules. And I'm getting tired of asking griefers/alts to put some clothes on and/or watch their language.

It's more fun helping people when you're not a mentor.

Based on this thread, most everyone agrees the griefer situation is out of hand.

Also, most Mentors are feeling frustrated that there is nothing we can do about it.

And... simply giving "powers" to the 800+ Mentors would be a risky proposition.

LL cannot possibly hire enough "Lindens" to properly manage this situation... So, it seems obvious to me that SL needs a new level of volunteer... a level that would include some additional capabilities. I would expect that some existing volunteers could be "vetted" by Jeska (or other Lindens) for this new position.

I spent a bit of time on HI Public over this past weekend... and was not a bit surprised that I didn't see any other Mentors while I was there. Weapons, caging, verbal abuse, etc, was rampant. I felt so bad for the poor people (newbies) who were there actually looking for help.

While I am at the numbered HIs, I frequently tell people "don't worry that you cannot return to HI after you go to the Mainland... you can visit HI Public any time you wish." However, that may soon change to a warning to *stay away* from HI Public...

Just a few thoughts...

I've been avoiding wanting to put it this way since I'm totally going to rain on the party, but this entire thread is a non-sequitur.

Mentors, Greeters and Live Help are just Residents who volunteer to be there to help other people.

They are not mini-lindens, they are not enforcers, they are not 'staff'; they are not anything but residents who have an "I can probably help" tag on.

If a Mentor, Greeter or Live Helper tries to 'pull rank' on another resident, or even insinuate that they have more 'power' than any other resident, they could be abuse reported and have action taken against them under 4.1(ii) of the TOS. Not a very good way to maintain your "clean record" requirement of being a Mentor.

But, newbies don't know this. And I've certainly seen Mentors acting like they're somehow something "more" than just volunteer help-and-information-disseminators. The "allure" of being considered somehow 'official' or 'higher in rank' than other residents may certainly be appealing to some people, but you are misleading yourself if you think that being a Mentor gives you that. It doesn't. It never will. That's not the purpose of the Mentor program.

The very notion that there are people who are even suggesting that Linden would -consider- giving Mentors "some power" shows that they don't understand their role or position as a mentor. It will never happen.

If you think I'm wrong, or disagree with this notion, just ask a Linden, and I'm sure any questions you have will be cleared up immediately.

Enforcement is up to LL, their abuse team, and their liaisons. It can be a shame to see newbies get griefed on HI/OI, and it's probably pretty annoying as a Mentor to get it yourself -- but I think some Mentors are seriously already overstepping their bounds if they think they even *should* have the power to make a punishment or enforcement decision on behalf of Linden Lab.

And as I've said before - there are two categories of people on the grid. Residents and Lindens. There are no residents who are above other residents. There are no residents who have more powers than other residents.

There is one way and only one way to gain powers or position on the grid higher than that of any ordinary resident: apply to LL, get an interview, succeed at the interview, and get hired. Period. Everyone else is the same. All 1.8 million or so of us.

A newbie has the same recourse a 3 or 4 year veteran resident does. Abuse report. If LL isn't handling AR's quickly or efficiently, then honestly, in the long run that's LL's problem, and even ultimiately their administrative choice.

We may not like it, but it's up to LL how they run their service and business.

I've been putting off replying to this thread hoping someone would write exactly that so I didn't need to write it myself.

Well written and I can agree on most of it.

I have been helping newbies for almost 2 years before I applied for Mentor. At least one of them became a mentor himself.
I know I'm a volunteer. I don't get paid, I dont get any discounts or extras. I don't want to, I didn't get that before I became a mentor.
But LL made some special groups to help newbies. I have read the cards, and there are rules mentors have to obey if they want to become or stay mentors. We are considered at least some kind of voluntarily LL representatives.
If LL doesn't send a Linden when a mentor asks for assistance, that's their choice. And in the long run, as you say, their problem.
When I was just a nice guy helping newbies I didn't have these problems.. I would just leave the griefers griefing. As a mentor I'm not even allowed to call them names...

LL sometimes asks for our assistance. On at least one occasion we got a group message if we please could come to the HI's because of the large numbers of new residents. We're helping LL. If we ask THEM for help, please let them help us as well.

~applaus~ and very well done. I couldn't said it better myself. Us mentors/greeters/Live Helpers are ONLY! residents and only that. We volunteered to help others like new residents joining Secondlife today.

The only thing they can do is try to hire more liaisons and have them on staff and online, monitoring the activities and behavior on the help islands. I realize you're not really disagreeing entirely, but "Helping us help ourselves" will not come in the form of giving us ban/freeze/punitive powers; we will not be made into Liaisons.

At the same time, I don't think Linden Lab is blaming us for not curtailing the frequency of griefing on the HI/OI's - it's not our position to do so - it's simply not our responsibility or place to 'help' in that way. We can tell newbies what's going on. We can tell them how to file abuse reports --- the fact that they may be less effective than we'd like them to be is not our fault - nor can we do anything about it, except mitigate the damage done by talking to new residents and explaining the culture and realities of SL.

(Unfortunately, griefers are part of that culture - just as the criminal element is part of any given urban center or city's culture. In such cases, it's never permissible for residents or citizens to take police action or become vigilantes - when they do that, they become criminals themselves, and open themselves up to arrest. )

If anyone wants to become a Liaison or a Linden, by all means, apply. They're hiring like mad right now I hear, and it seems like there's a new one every week. But the Volunteer groups are not there for enforcement.

I completely agree that the OI/HI's can be absolutely overwhelming, and that there's a hell of a lot of griefing going on. But that's true for secondlife as a whole right now, and is more an issue of growth and scalability than it is of whether or not Mentors have extra privileges and capabilities.

Don't get me wrong. It'd be REALLY satisfying to kick the ass of some griefer who's giving a bunch of newbies a hard time.

But it'd also be incredibly satisfying to take out a dozen evil black-jumpsuited ne'er-do-wells on the deck of a pirate ship on the high seas using only my fists. Unfortunately, however, I don't know kung-fu, so that won't be happening any time soon, either.

As I just pleaded in the IM after the Ambat disaster, I say:

1) give volunteers return power on parcels

2) create a new group of supervolunteers that undergo all the checks regular lindens do, even sign a contract like liaisons if needed, but without pay. That gives accountability and an additional policing force.

Telling whether a person is griefing or not does not require very delicate judgements, especially when the griefer is hurling cages and setting off nuclear devices. I would be very happy for mentors to have the power to ban them from SL for a day or a week, and permanently from Help Island. Griefing elsewhere is annoying, but picking on newbies is despicable because newbies probably do not know how to report and they are almost certainly not armed. By the time they understand what is happening, they may have logged off and back on, and have no record of the name of whomever griefed them. So just telling newbies how to report is not enough. They need extra protection. Requiring a minim of 3 mentors seems quite enough safeguard to me.

Mentors are people who are motivated to help others. That's the kind of person I trust. Give them banning powers, please.

It would be nice to be able to temporarily freeze or at least boot a griefere off Help Island for disruptive behaviour. BUT who and what mentors. We dont need heavy punishment or bannig powers to deal with griefers. Simple tools like 15 min Frozen avatar, Chat Mute capability would be nice too where the griefer would only be able to recieve or transmit chat to the mentors. Have a Screened group of mentors willing to accept the responsibility of being a " Second life Police " and be responsible for for his use of the power...
and be willing to go assist mentors at time of need. Also how about the power to return item to owners on HI... the sand box is a mess and the occaisonal Prims on the telepod can be a real hassel... Return would be a nice feature and not destructive to the prim or user. Any way i saw a mention of mentor burn out somwhere on the forums and would like to say the inability to deal with griefers and looking like a fool in the presence of new citizens is one thing that contributes to that. By the way " Second Life Police " is not a good title just using it as a title. Have fun enjoy live life the fullest ..... Clay

This is a supremely bad idea. We don't need little Neros running around trying to boss everyone around.

I got back to what I did before.. I still help noobs, but I just hang around at WA's without my mentor tag. And I dont go to Help Islands anymore. Some alts just go "oooh, big important guy with your mentor tag... you can't do anything against me"
Helping people without the mentor tag is a lot better.

You're right, it doesn't.

But what's going to stop certain mentors from doing that to folks who aren't griefing?

You can either allow them to ban anyone, or ban no-one.

as Ingrid said, there's nothing that's going to stop newly empowered mentors from bossing people around, becoming sandbox dictators. You can say "oh, but we wouldn't!" - but with the size of the mentor group, you can be pretty much assured that power would be abused somewhere.

There's no flag you can set that allows mentors to "ban griefers only". And as I said before, every mentor will have different standards as to what they consider a bad actor.

Newbies will arrive and be met with inconsistencies. I've seen locales and venues in SL vary their ban criteria wildly. Some will ban a person for pushing. Others, it takes repeated assaults for them to even give a warning. Tolerances and standards differ from person to person, and the mentor pool is an uncontrolled quantity. Mentors were never vetted, trained, or briefed on what LL's standards are. Nor could they be, at this point, without essentially making them all into liaisons.

And that just is not going to happen.

I'll say it again, *mentors are not enforcers*. Mentors are not police. Mentors are not "little lindens".

Mentors are volunteers who give information and guidance. And that is all. If you expected more when joining the mentor program, you've misjudged its intent.

I understand that dealing with hordes of griefers on the HI's can be a trying experience. And yes, something should be done about it. But as a mentor, that is not your place. That isn't your function. Just because something bothers you, and you are subject to dealing with it, doesn't mean its your position to right those wrongs. I get cut off in traffic every day, but if I went to the capitol and protested for the right to write my own traffic tickets, they'd tell me to shut up and join the academy if I wanted that power.

You're not a Linden or a Liaison, and you're not about to be deputized into being one any sooner than the Knights of Columbus or the Rotary Club are going to be issued government siderams and granted law enforcement powers.

If you want that capability, apply to LL and go through the process.

Power like this can't be trusted with any mentor. I know a lot of newbie mentors. I'm not saying any names but they are mentors that have been playing for like 3 months and honestly don't deserve the title. Sure this power may be a good idea but not until the required playing time to become a mentor is at least a year. Also, more detective work should be done on teen mentors because several of us are still too immature to ever have this power. People will take it for granted.

I must agree with Michi. Remember, we've had it drummed into us, time and time again that the volunteer corps are not enforcers, not police, and not superior. If you haven't had that drummed into you over and over, just ask around. A few folks are available who are willing to do that.

Personal opinion follows:
The volunteers are ordinary residents, qualified based on their ability to find and click a button on a web-page. As a volunteer you have no more clout or authority than any other resident on the grid, whether that's the oldest of the oldbies or the newest of the newbies.

Lead by example, follow process. Let Linden Lab look after Linden Land. That's their job. Do the best you can to assist in that process, but don't believe you know better.

So, the griefer is 'taimed' for a short period, until he works out how to escape into the vastness of SL space.... On their 2nd alt, they skip the gauntlet of Mentors/Greeters and go straight to where they can be most effective, unleashed and untetherd amongst the population. 1st stop the army surplus store, then where?

There is very little point only having a small net in the wide ocean of SL, this isn't an issolated case nor is it containable... unless... we pay taxes and enroll goverments/councils to employ a police force (perish the thought). Who knows who may enroll into the police force.. maybe the 3rd alt... and now they have a gun if only life was so simple...

Personally, I just cage them and mute them (I always wear and anti-push device anyway), if they want to report me... np (never met any that would), then put into chat, as first lesson of the day.. this is how you mute someone in sl... have a nice one. Most (99.9%) of newcomers that witness the event applaud, are thankfull and remark, at least something is done about those nasty ppls. To my mind, a far better impression to give the good newcomers that will contribute to our world and hope that some form of law and order exists. Well until they reach the mainland

I don't want to be judge and jury in SL for anyone but myself, I became a Greeter to help and assist those that really want/need it. I do no more, or less to anyone, when I click the 'Connect' button to start the game. Anyone that knows me, knows what I am talking about.

Grief happens. If it happens to somebody who owns the land they can ban and eject. Easy. If it's not their land, then they should go somewhere else. You can always make a cube, sit on it, and go away.

I was in a large sandbox the other day, building and testing my new club and some dork came in and starting spamming snow and rain. I turned particles off and then told him he was stupid. See? There are simple solutions.

]

Heres what I say to this. Mentors position is not to handle abuse. A mentor is someone who is there to guide them thru the steps and show them how to report abuse not to be the enforcer. I might suggest using help reuqest is what you can say. When ever I goto a help island or anywhere were I have a mentor tag on I have red text that says I do not handle abuse. Pls use the help request.

Keep your mind on helping people and not try being a SL cop. Thats what the lindens are being paid for. If they dont get to you fast then dont blame them. There short staffed and if you look at the resident ratio based on resident population there way outnumber. Thats also why I dont report abuse and just tp somewhere else because I dont want to add more work for them then they already have.

Anyways have a greta time in sl

my 2L worth.

I would like to think that if I handled griefers on HI the same as I do on any land not my own (my land is another story for another time LOL) that the LL folks would take the time to read the chat history I send along with my AR, add the fact that I am a mentor and was on HI at the time of the offense... and go easy on me

What I normally do on land I dont have any power over is chat the griefer a nice message that I am going to AR them. That I am including chat history including the output from my tool-attachment (no picking favorites here) and a snapshot if that would be helpful.

If they persist in being a pain I warn them that if they do not stop being a pain the hind quarters that I will cage them with no compunction at which time I attach my cager and make ready to follow up on my "threat"

95% of the time this at least sends them elsewhere, so far on HI I have never even had to get to the point of putting on a cager [knock wood]

In fact the only time I have ever used the cager was earlier today on my land after getting "home" from HI and still had my mentor tag on... (my alt actually).

Technically being a mentor I am a member of the "members list" of a club (again no favorites, but a place you go dance and what not). Nothing more, and nothing less. I have had no special training, I am not paid, I just enjoy helping people as I was helped my first day long ago... As such I have no special power just like a "member" would have no special power anywhere else I am a "member".

I like the "lawlessness" of SL and hope that can continue the world RL or SL is not ready for one government umbrella covering everyone. Self policing with the tools we have available as "resident" seems to me like the best option... Far too many nut-cases exist in both worlds who are the leader of a country, estate owner, sim owner, etc...

hmm, be careful there. It doesn't really work that way. I don't think you being on HI or being a mentor would ever be taken into account in an abuse report; or at least, it shouldn't.

The equation is pretty simple:, it seems

1)Are you a Resident; if yes -
2)Did you break the TOS, if yes goto 4, if no, exit.
3)did you break the CS, if yes goto 4, if no, exit.
4)disciplinary action.

Interesting ideas about 'special' residents (that three letter word) -- I think if that has ever existed, SL has grown far too large for it to continue to exist. Maybe when there were only 150 residents in-world at a time and 15 lindens in world at that same time, there could have been "favored residents". Now we're seeing that same 15 lindens in world but 30,000 online at a time. There ain't no favorites.

There are just too many abuse reports and too many residents for LL to get in the business of using judgement calls. It doesn't matter if you're a mentor or a clubber, an oldbie or a newbie, a businessperson or a free account, famous or unknown. From my experience, LL doesn't waver from the above (steps 1-4) when it comes to abuse reports.

There are not different 'shades' of residents: there are two types of people - Residents and Lindens, and it's not a scale, it's not a ladder (you can't climb it.) It's quite binary. Anything else is a social construct that really probably don't mean a thing to LL when it comes to enforcement or making decisions.

However you do have to wonder -- I think in a world this big, anarchy isn't going to work. LL has said many times that they are not the police or government. Will that mean more consolidation run under owner-governors? (ala Dreamland?) - Probably, similar to the way that 'lords/landowners' governed their properties and allowed people to live on them in ancient times.

Or it may just stay lawless - who knows.

What I see happening is the emergence of large estates - we've all noted the rise of the land barons, and you could equate these estates with baronies. Left to our own and beginning from a state of complete anarchy, the population of Second Life is stratifying according to one of the few visible markers that means anything in practical terms: land ownership. He or she who has land may make the rules for that land. The more land one owns, the more effective and binding the rules one makes tend to become.

Coalitions of estate owners are forming as well. They band together into councils to determine ways to deal with problems common to all of them (which happens to limit the conversation to griefer control, in which they tend to be very cooperative, and in economic growth, in which they tend to be largely competitive).

An evidence of this is the SLBanlink system. With more than ninety participating sims, participants share information on griefers and people who for whatever reason they determine need a good solid banning. Since it is a trusted peer system, those who file frivolous bannings are soon shunned by the rest of the community, so it serves no one for them to be arbitrary or dishonest about it. This is what I believe is the beginnings of self governance, which is what the Lindens have been suggesting we do all along.

We are approaching a political model of feudalism, more or less. Estates appear to be taking on many of the properties of the classical Greek city-states. It may not be the best system of government possible, but considering that most of the people in SL are visitors and not lasting residents, it seems the most likely to work, at least for the moment.

Michi is absolutely right.

(And by the way, I don't think greeters are supposed to be caging people.)

coco

Thanks, Kalel. This is exactly the comparison I was trying to draw, just couldn't bring up the reference. I agree that this is what we're seeing. After all, certain people "are the government". We may even see 'united' 'states' or a 'union' of sims at some point forming themselves into cooperative governments officially. Who knows. But it's going to have to go somewhere.