Linden response to racist incident in Ahern Welcome area

Hey, look, another potentially viable thread hijacked to Venus! Whee!

I'm not stepping into the 'Is MadameG a racist' thing at all, period. Didn't happen. Nothing to see here, move along.

What I am wondering is, how many people reading have had dissatisfactory experiences with LL, vis-a-vis their enforcement of TOS? I personally haven't, but then again I'm a very seekretive and standoffish sort who typically doesn't come into contact with offensive peeps to begin with. If this is a problem, though, it's definitely something that should be addressed.

Forgive me,

But this is a subject I have some direct personal experience with, and it has stressed me out pretty good as I have struggeld to deal with it.

I ask you're forgiveness because I'm now going to embark on a bit of a

<RANT>
As you can see, griefing occurs at all levels - from things that get peeps riled up in the WA, to things that bring down the grid, as it is while I type this.

For the past several days, excluding the last two, we (a smallish group of us) have been engaged in what could only be called warfare. A Mentor and TLC Staffmember were involved, as the target of much griefing. Other Mentors and even a live help voulunteer were also targeted. I wont reveal their names, it isn't for me to reveal them in a public forum.

But the Mentor (unless I'm the most gullible idiot on the planet for believing what I was told by these individuals), was then griefed along with two Lindens who'd responded to the calls for help, was told by them that there was pretty much nothing they could do, and that they'd not take any action against them for retaliation.

A sporadic battle ensued - and the griefers won. The individual simply had to give up and leave. And it wasn't all over the violence; in fact in the end it was because no amount of violence could seem to bring it to and end, no matter how plaintive the cry that went out to the Lindens for assistance, no matter how many tactical nukes and teargas cannisters were deployed.

Further, as we traveled to other sandys looking for a new place for the group to work, we were systematically griefed out of every TLC-owned Sandy we visited, -by the same group of griefers-. Draw your own conclusions; ffs, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths.

I have continued to monitor the location, and since this particular Mentor has left the sandbox, I have seen very few of the aggressors, and such as I have seen have been on their best most unprovocable behaviour.

Don't try to tell me they are now behaving because of the threat of the Lindens; the sim was actually crashed on a couple of occasions as a result of trouble there. The Linden method for dealing with such under the TOS is to prosecute them under US Federal Telecommunications law. Yet these individuals still come and go pretty much as they please. And interestingly, appear to have become relatively model citizens overnight.

Personally, if you will pardon my french, I could give a fuck less if they (the Lindens) respond to a call for help against griefing; I've modeled my VR character and behaviour on Hiro Protagonist from SnowCrash ever since I started using VRML some four or five years ago, which I discovered because I read SnowCrash, and went out on the 'net looking for the MetaVerse. I was griefed out of VRML. Aint happenin' here. The Lindens will have to ban me - I simply wont be convinced I dont have the right to defend myself against uninvited aggression. If they do, I will be convinced that I have done the right thing. Personally, I dont think they will. I dont think they have the time to deal with non critical TOS issues, as stated by other(s) earlier in the thread, and for the reasons stated.

But that sure sucks for all my not-so-cyberpunk hippie friends who are now in here eating the shit sandwich they tried to escape by coming here in the first place.
</RANT>

My sincere apologies to anyone who is offended by what I had to say. Beyond that you'll have nothing more from me on the subject.

In case you were wondering, I'm the friend Lucifer Baphomet referred to in an earlier post.


Fletch

This is being common please these days luc.......But understand the staff is over worked.....Look how many lindens and mentors they added inthe past 2 months......

i think its funny that NO lindens have replied

I wonder why the top person is still not saying a word about either problem that happened in the wa the past 2 days..........funny thing is after yestersday wa problem there was TWO count them TWO lindens dealing with the drama mess that happened......One had common sence the other. Well.......i rather not say a remark about..Remeber the lindens are only people not gods. Maybe at times we see them as god like. But really they bring their emotional problems person thought and feeling as well to the game.

An Update:

Torley Linden has responded to my emails; the degree of substance is somewhat in question; but this is not surprising given its not really her area of endeavor. I just wanted to mention this because I get the idea that there are a few Lindens who are as upset about this as I am, and are responding, and I don't want to portray them innacurately.

Further, two of the ringleaders of the griefer group who battled us have either quit or been banned; they can no longer be 'found' using the in-world tools provided by the client interface.

IMHO, this is a positive turn of events.

Cheers,
Fletch

And a big shout out to all my fellow VRML refugees in the Blaxxun Outlanders group

BUMMER: Seems the funny speeling of some of these peeps names prevents them easily being 'found'. Looks like they're all still in the game.

Cheers
Fletch

The KKK advocates white supremacy. The Goreans advocate male supremacy. I have trouble understanding why LL has no issues with Goreans. Granted the women participate in gorean activities consentually. But imagine a KKK sim where minority toons (played by fellow members consentually) were discriminated against or worse. Even if it had warnings as you entered.. I am sure LL would not permit such a thing. I have trouble understanding the double standard.

Sorry for the topic switch. I am sure this has been discussed somewhere. Maybe to death. Just curious what people thought of my take.

What the???????? Another topic issue changed by Gor issues?

What happened inthe WA was really said and the KKK cult person was a sad and taste sign of how far down things have become in this game. Still No lindens have replied to this issue and second hand infor for people saying lindens siad just does not mean anything.


Update............ have you seen abuse reports? Nothing showing......gesh this is sad indeed

2 guys, one in a kkk outfit, just confronted me in-world. They said they were selling cookies to raise money for their group. I took their picture and TP'ed into the next sim. They confronted me again about 3 minutes later in that second sim. I logged off. It may just be a joke to them, but I'm not happy about it.

Well lets see if LLABS takes care of this issue..........frankly CS support@secondlife should deal with this.........

Ok. I am a 43 yr old White Male. I have been around the block a few times and have seen biggotry and racism. I am a minority because I am gay and identify as such.

Everyone is entitled to their POV. It's great to have discussions like this because although the 80's were great for music. it sucked by giving us Political Correctness. When we became PC, we forgot to talk it out. Not to sway one to their POV, but to help others understand the perception of their truth. Remember always that one's perception is THEIR truth. To disavow that truth you negate their feelings.

With that said, I have to comment on the statement above, 'using this thread to get out your own racist remarks on the low?' In my POV, I see that as an admittance of you believing your remark may have been racist in nature. The "your own" is the key to this. Maybe this portion of the thread should slowly disappear.......or maybe that is what some would like to think has happened.

Point is; be offended by the actions of others, but if you're both feeling that same ire that things could have been handled in the situation better, then you're on the same page. Accept (not tolerate) the others opinion and don't read too much into a statement.

If I wrote, "I put out a fag and rolled over." or "I flipped the fag out the window, I was so angry." Consider this; I might be British or I might hate gays. (I realize not the same as what I've read in the threads) Discussion is the only way to determine which, and getting overly defensive....well that doesn't clear things up, it only escalates and continues to fester. Text conveys so little of ones heart and can be misunderstood at times. Sometimes it's best to ingnore a comment and move on.

Which, I might remind you is what the intitial recommendations of this thread was about. Muting, no retaliation comments, not giving power over someones words of hate and anger and Reporting Abuse.

You many not feel that it's power, but it's your contribution that makes the difference. I suggest that you read through the threads again from the beginning - try to look at it from the POV of someone else - not you, if you commented. You'll see what I mean...

Well "my" truth is that truth is truth, is it true that the earth is flat or is it true that the earth is round or are both true? Is the Earth in two states, both round and flat?

Just my blabbermouth opinion of course. Move along.

[left]

With the entire thread, Sky stakes claim in seeking to take a "higher road" yet he/she/it uses malicious, defamatory, and belittling comments towards me personally. Putting words in another person's mouth is trollish and rude.

This is what we call an "angelic troll" One who posts a thread and makes their whole intention seem wise and just while at the same time twisting another persons comments around to use them against them. Enough said.



Dealing with Trolls

When a troll is acting out, some things you can do are:

1. Use the ignore feature. This blocks out the offensive remarks. This is the best way to handle a troll in chat when there is no host present. Imagine the frustration the troll will feel when no one pays any attention to anything it says!
   
2. On the forums, never reply to a troll's message, unless it is to say "I'm reporting this post as a violation." (If you've reported it and say so, a dozen others won't also think they need to report it.)
   

Mute is not a solution to the problem. The incidence of griefing in ALL forms is increasing in SL and the reason for it is the continuing lack of response by Liasons unless you happen to be one of the high rollers. And as far as they go, good luck ever filing an AR against one of them trying to grief you of your land as it will be totally ignored. In psychological terms there is this thing called enabling, this is precisely what Linden is doing by NOT enforcing or picking and choosing whom to enforce the ToS with. If the liasons cannot handle it I would suggest forming another volunteer group that DOES have authority to ban, at least temporarily the griefers regardless of how much land they own or how long they have been account holders, and screen those volunteers very carefully. I do not think a temp ban for all violations pending a proper review is unreasonable. and I do mean proper not a "let's sweep it under the rug because they own a lot of land" thing. Once again the problems..huge increase in violations of the ToS in all forms up to and including grid attacks.....the solution? Do something about it other than just telling ppl to file an AR that will be ingored and blowing them off.

You seriously can't make everyone happy, and I'm sure Linden Labs knows that. There is ALWAYS going to be something that pisses someone else off. It is life, get over it.

We don't stop gays for doing their gay thing in sl, we don't stop the latinos for their marchs, we don't stop this ralley or that rally.

If it bothers you then put them on ignore/mute. That is what the feature is for.

If they are on your land, then boot em. There is security ya know.

If it is public land, just do a stupid abuse report and leave. No one is forcing you to stand there and watch em.

This is game, not real life. You just to use those nifty little ignores.

It is free speech, it is in the laws.

I don't agree with the KKK thing. I personally don't agree with anything anybody rallys for in this game. I'm not gonna sit and complain about it on this forum though.

I do agree 100% that you should not go spewing hate messages, pushing people and being violent. I don't agree with what happened in ahem.

As for Lindens, you all know the reply is always "fill out an abuse report."

But right now we need to worry about getting the game working then fighting each other.

Lord almighty why can we not get along.

I disagree with racism and all that jazz, but I think being able to say what you want is important, whether or not everybody agrees with you. In Second Life and First Life, there are bigots, and they have a right to speak too. If you and the other people in the area were so offended, you could have used the mute button.

While Godwin's Law only involves one particular racist group in threads, I think it's safe to apply it here. You lose the thread. Look it up if you want to know why.

Thank you.

As to the topic...

I've seen racism from ALL ethnic backgrounds. Many people will assume racism can only apply to minorities, but that's not the case. You can be racist against any group.

And free speech doesn't apply to harassment, even in the US laws. What the person here was said to be doing amounted to harassment, and should have had some action taken (as it seems it did, from later posts?).

Linden has a lot of things to deal with at once. I think someone said it took "a full" 20 minutes to get this fixed. 20 minutes? Is that all?

Cripes, play WoW sometime. Wait 36 hours to be told to 'email cs about it'. Then come back and spew your rage against those who deserve it. *chuckle*

Sev,

You can't invoke Godwin's law and also reply. The whole point of Godwin's law is that the thread is dead, and no one should post anything more to it, including you. And me. Oops.

MadamG-

I ... I really don't know where to begin.

Probably doesn't matter anyway. What I write and what you read will probably have absolutely no relationship to each other anyway, I could probably say that the sky is blue and you'd be calling me a troll for it.

Happy life to you, if such is possible.

--
Step 1 in not being a victim: stop treating everything as an attack.

I hear you... but I think that griefing will continue to get worse until we as a community of individuals learn how to deal with griefers with minimal Linden intervention.

More billy-club wielding volunteers doesn't fix the problem... in my experience... it often makes the problem worse. Power corrupts, even at low levels, and volunteers with banning power are often overly quick to let situations escalate rather than defuse them so they can exercise that power.

I dislike griefers as much as anyone... but I don't want SL turned into some civil war zone with deputized amateurs running around banning people at whim.

Personal attacks are completely un-called for. Perhaps you should take your own advice. Look in the mirror before you go around "assuming" things about people.

I...I really don't know what I should say Jopsy-
Probably doesn't matter anyway. What I read and what you write will probably have no relationship to one another anyway...blah blah BLAH!

If you feel it so neccessary to respond and to direct your Trollish posts at me, perhaps you ARE a troll and should be treated as such:

HERE is where you popped out of no where and called me a racist!



After I called you out on having twisted my words around, here is where you admitted to having done so: (and STILL managed to twist my words around and add more nonsense to the discussion)


Then you step in again and make some more rude, belittling, and slanderous staements directed towards me personally for absolutely NO reason whatsoever:



You continue to bring up the same post that was made about 2 days and 3 pages ago....why is that Jopsy? You must wanna keep it going...keep the fire burning huh? Typical troll behavior.

You continue to insist that I MUST be a racist based on a post even though I have plainly stated that I am not. If you were able to see my RL family whom I absolutely adore and love with all my heart, you would KNOW that there's no way in heaven or hell that I could be a racist.

If you can make an assumption that I am a racist based on what I said, then I can make the same about you and assume that you must be a sad, bored, troll based on all of your troll like posts which are directed towards me and me alone.

Here are a few links to help us ALL deal with tolls:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://archives.betterhumans.com/Forums/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/497/view/topic/Default.aspx
http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp

I think I will start a new thread being it that this is off topic. Well, I guess it kinda applies since trolls and griefers fall under the same category. One's no better that the other in my opinion.

As for the topic, I hope that it was dealt with accordingly by LL staff.

Just letting you know that I've read it and that I still stand by my objections to your posts.

Clearly we are incapable of communicating effectively with each other, so I'll stop.

--
no sig.