Emptying Trash

That's a bit harsh there, Chuck.

Don't forget, SL is one of the most advanced applications ever written. In fact, probably the most advanced Entertainment app ever written. Most of the problems you describe are problems with overload on the asset server... which is EXACTLY what Phoenix is trying to lighten by emptying the trash.

-Flip

Emptying trash automatically after a week or a month is fine. Please, please, please don't add a maximum item limit tho.

First, I deem that objections are pointless. Once a 'proposal' has made it as far as being posted, history suggests that it's a done deal.

I would have raised two objections. We are already facing the nightmare of Inventory items being lost from the database in significant numbers, so it makes little sense to remove a failsafe mechanism. Secondly, the current interface makes it horrifically easy to accidentally delete items, again suggesting that auto-delete will create more pain than it will cure.

Yet it will happen, and here are a few predictable outcomes:

The auto-delete system will, at some point, be buggy. And those who fall victim will be justifiably angered. The bugs will cause people to keep even more copies of old items than ever, thus defeating the purpose.

A patch will be necessary, and another to fix the first one. The time and resources needed to accomplish this seemingly simple task will far outstrip what LL imagines it will take. Developer time and effort will be squandered.

The one certain lesson I learned during my years in IT management is that trying to substitute quick fixes for quick hardware upgrades is always a costly mistake in the long run.

I have no problems with this at all! I hate taking out the trash anyway

you can automate my trash to empty every time i disconnect. i already have my email clients set that way.

Julianna (and others who have suggested it) -

LL should never ever EVER change the system to store Inventory Items on the client (i.e. your home machine) - and I'm betting they won't.

Why you ask? For 3 very simple reasons: Hacks, Cheats, and Security Risks. Any time you store information on the client, you are letting all those bored malicious people in the world start to try to disassemble your system. I have been involved in the computer-games industry (at Sierra Software), and seen it time and time again. If you store something on the client, someone WILL figure out how to hack it; or take advantage of it. I have seen cheats as a result of this in EVERY online game that stores information on the client.

Think about it: Allowing objects to reside on the client means that the server HAS to trust the information it is given by the client - so what's stopping a determined hacker from figuring out how an object is stored on his machine and modifying it, even if the permissions are set to "no modify"? Or worse - what's stopping someone from trying to piggyback malicious code on the data-stream when your inventory objects are "sent" to the server every time you log-in or use something in-world (either in an LSL script or as a buffer-overrun or other "attack" on the servers themselves)??

It *MIGHT* be possible to store things in an encrypted fashion on your machine with a private/public key pair that only the server can decode - BUT then you're introducing "housekeeping" and extra load on the server anyways... There's no guarantee that it wouldn't be SLOWER / cause more load that way! And the "armor cladding" you'd have to add to the servers to protect them and cross-check client objects for problems would also introduce extra load and lag on the system. It becomes an ugly mess!

Plus, large / complex objects would have to be transmitted from the client to the server every time you rezzed them or tried to give them to someone or sold them or whatever - causing lag & delays every time you did one of these things.


...Having said all this, I will agree that there are some frustrating limits to the power of the Inventory Interface - but I think this is partially because the Inv. interface already gives us so much power; and SL is SO MUCH MORE complex than any other MMO game, with respect to what we can possess and modify. I believe that they will improve the system over time - but bugs and other important issues must take precedence... There are only a limited number of hours in a day; and a limited number of employees to work the problems!

For the record: Anyone that deletes stuff accidentally and doesn't "Restore" it within a short time is being very careless. Auto-emptying the trash is a GoodThing(tm)! Now, a really elegant solution would be to put a timer on each item in the Trash - and have it go away after X number of days... This would prevent a "Monday Trash-Day" from suddenly deleting something a careless user accidentally left there for 5 hours because they deleted some stuff ON a Monday. But the overhead of a "timer" system might be inefficient. *shrug* I bow to the expertise of the LL folks on that one - because they're the only ones that truly know the system!

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

I'll add a suggestion that might suppliment this: In Windows, you can hold down shift+delete and it will allow you to delete something without it going to the recycling bin. Something like that would be very handy in SL, especialy for the various variants on the plywood cube and other "just messing with prims" experiments.

I think its a good idea, but I would rather be able to set the time limit myself rather than some arbitrary time set by the system.

I find the idea that the deletion code will be written correctly to be ludicrous. The code that is supposed to make moving from one sim to another seamless is fundamental to the operation of the virtual reality but that code is flawed, objects get stuck on the borders, vehicles stop, vehicle riders are dismounted, all sorts of errors occur in this critical section of code and the errors occur frequently for many people. The code that is supposed to make a simulator appear on your screen is fundamental but that code is not written correctly, it is not at all unusual for an entire sim to fail to appear or to suddenly disappear from view. The code that is supposed to enforce permissions has been shown to have been written incorrectly, the programming staff wasn't clever enough to find the flaw in the system themselves, they had to turn to the customers to find their error. The display of other people's avatars is critical to a successful virtual environment, but this code is written incorrectly, other people's avatars frequently are not displayed but their attachments do. The ghosing rate for some users is over fifty percent, that is, over 50 percent of the objects they delete remain visible on the client, and that is a result of incorrectly written programming code. The numerous unpleasant sounds one hears from vehicles fairly frequently results from badly written code. There are other errors listed in the new bug report pages on the wiki, but that is just a tiny sample of problems with the program, problems that are the result of incorrectly written code.

Thus I find the idea that the LL programming staff can be counted on to make sure that their code that deletes things will stay in the correct folder instead of, say, accidentally deleting everything in my entire inventory, or all the contents of the folder next to the trash folder in the list, or deleting everything that is not trash, to be just silly. They have demonstrated their ability to screw up the important things repeatedly. Why give them the opportunity to screw up something with such major import?

It scares me to death to think my trash will be emptied arbitrarily. There have been many times when I've "lost" something and found it in the trash - whether I deleted it (whichs is probably the case) or it mysteriously appeared there.

Also a limit to the trash is kind of scary when you're building big projects and deleting things, then thinking hmmmm maybe that was ok after alll...pull it out of the trash rather than recreating.

Why not make auto-emptying the trash an option? Easily checked in the prefences area of options?

Then let people know that it's an option available to them or something like that.

I like this idea a lot as well! Options are always a great thing in my book!

If this idea is not an option though, then yes, I am fine with the one month old items in trash being emptied as originally posted.

I wonder if people's resistance to this idea of an auto-empty is partially because its something they haven't had to worry about, until now? All of a sudden, its an extra responsibility.

The repulsion from "one more thing to worry about" is understandable... But I think this is partly because people have gotten too used to dealing with it in a lax manner. I mean seriously folks - how often do you try to recover something from your Windows "Recycle Bin" or Mac "Trash" after several days? Or how about your Yahoo / Hotmail "Trash" folder after several days (since they DO have an auto-empty function)?

IMHO, if LL implements this, there will be some complaining - but people will quickly adjust to the new system; and the complaints will die down rapidly. AND, hopefully, the servers will be able to run under a little less load - because there won't be tens of thousands of deleted inventory items to track!

I'll take improved server response in exchange for an auto-emptying Trash folder ANY day!

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

Overall, I am in favour of an auto-delete of items that have been in the trash folder for a period of a month. I am not sure whether items have a flag placed on them as to when they were placed into the trash folder, if so then I would suggest a daily purging of items that have sat in the trash for 1 month or more. I think this would circumvent the problem of 'oops I deleted it 5 minutes ago and now its gone for good' that a timed monthly purge would result in.

Bottom line though is, any reduction in the load on the asset servers is a good thing, and the trash bin is designed as a safety net, not a permanent storage receptacle.

I agree with the auto purge of the trash folders, It's a good idea. I personally keep the trash folder cleaned.

If I do a purge/cleaning of the other folders or if I clear my Land, I will glance through the Trash folder to make sure I haven't added something to it by mistake, once done I empty it. This way if something shows up in the trash folder It stands out. Because I may have deleted something by accident. If this is the case, I then put the item back in the correct folder.

Since we can make folders for items, why would a person need to use the trash folder for storage ?, Kinda doesn't make sense. I view the trash folder like a garbage can or dumpster. If an item has importance but may not to be used again, then make a folder and save it, because it can't be too important if you don't even know it's gone after a month.

I think trash should be emptied at the discretion of the user.. however a subtle reminder every 30 days or so could be issued by the client or whenever the trash bin contains over XX amount of items.

However, in my inventory I have TONS of duplicates. Now sometimes I put the same thing in different folders for organization purposes. However lots of times the same thing is duplicated in the same folder...not once but MULTIPLE times..

If there was a function that SL could use to check KEY IDs, so that I KNEW these items were for sure duplicates (not just two things named the same) I could be allowed to purge the multiples, and would do so.

This would go even farther in eliminating overhead of assets that are needlessly in inventory.

One can get around the auto-delete of the trash folder simply by creating a folder called, say, "old trash" and moving the trash there, or by restoring the trash to its original folder. It takes some time, but it's a lot faster and easier than actually figuring out which of the hundreds or thousands of objects named object has the only copy of that brilliant script you forgot to save somewhere else and mean to retrieve someday, or which one was that cool statue you accidently deleted without naming.

nope! Go for it! I _only_ use the trash the second after I delete something I shouldn't have!

What evidence is there to support a belief that SL is one of the most advanced applications ever written? I think that sounds completely absurd. What does "advanced" mean anyway? Can you define it in with a precision that would enable one to make a valid list of applications sorted by magnitude of advancement, or so you just really mean that you think SL is really cool?

Bugs are bugs whether they are in a complex program or a simple program. Writing programs well means writing programs with either zero or very very few bugs. SL is not well written by that standard because it is chock full of bugs that happen, for many people, every single time they use the program, and they happen a lot each time, forcing restarts, making people do sneaky fixit tricks they shouldn't need to do, or making people just not use certain aspects of the program, such as building, for instance, because the program doesn't work well enough to be worth the frustration of dealing with the errors produced by SL's shoddily written code. I stand by my belief that the programming staff does not perform well enough to make me trust them with a delete file function inside a loop in my inventory. They will screw up and delete the wrong folder or the entire inventory just as sure as riders bounce on sim borders and no-copy permissions change to copy spontaneously. It's kind of like giving a loaded gun to a monkey, except that there is at least a chance the monkey might not do any damage.

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"Yes. I agree 1.5.9 is junk. You can blame me. " - Andrew LInden

Chuck -

Forgive my bluntness - But I fail to see what help your criticism is.

Simply arguing that the system is bad and complaining that ANYTHING will be poorly implemented doesn't help. In fact, if we follow your logic, LL should suspend any and all development activities - because they're bound to screw it up. So let's just freeze SL right now, and let it wither on the vine, eh?

C'mon, that's ridiculous.

With your logic, Microsoft would've stopped somewhere around Windows 2.0; Cars would never have developed "efficient" engines back in the early 1900's, Airplanes would've ceased development because of all of the failures early on, etc., etc. The bottom line is that any new technology or complicated system takes time to develop and perfect. Even the latest versions of most high-profile software applications contain many bugs; and are constantly being re-written and refined with each version.

So... can we get back to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and suggestions, please?

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

Besides the odd. odd odd item that might be in the trash, completely by accident (that I obviously don't miss not having, since it's in the trash anyways.... ) I really think this is a great idea, especially considdering how much room the asset server could recoup.

I'm a tech, and I treat my Linden trash like I do my Windows desktop, completely empty.

I'm sure I can live without anything that is in my trash for over 30days without me noticing and restoring. I say get rid of the clutter especially if it will help sl run better in any way.

Make it so.

I actually wasn't aware of there being a trash can in my inventory that picked up all the deleted objects, hehe. Then again, I hadn't read through all the help. Maybe if there was a more "clear" indication of the trashcan in the inventory, then people would be emptying it properly. Say, like, the text color of the trash can was a bright yellow or blue--That would have been enough for me to notice it, and then I would have been emptying my trash, too.