Poll: would you pay more than 50L for an ad with new search?

I don't think that'll happen. People will just adapt and shift to other strategies.

Just so you know, I'm not a big fan of the All -> narrow by type (All/Classifieds/People/Wiki) menu. We want to eventually improve search for all types, but didn't have time to adapt the Google approach specifically to non-All searches. Eventually I would like to have smarter search for all the top level tabs but we just aren't there yet.

I think part of the issue here is that folks expect the All tab narrowed by Classifieds (or events, or places) to work like the main level tabs and it just doesn't. Maybe I released something half baked and should take the narrowing menu out until I can make it work properly.

Keep in mind you can do searches like "rocket shopping" to try to look in categories. Part of the problem with having a small set of fixed categories is that lots of stuff doesn't cleanly fit into one of them.

You guys are mostly power SL users, so please keep in mind that I have to balance power searching vs. newbie searching. Newbies use All search. I have it on video. I'm trying to give them more of a fighting chance to find their interests.

Anyhow, that's the back story. Keep comments coming.

James

OMG A LINDEN!

Thank you, James, for continuing to listen and for explaining the backstory.

You are right, we "power users" want a way to search the individual categories and narrow things down more precisely. Boolean operators, the ability to exclude results with certain keywords. Thanks for confirming that we will eventually get there

Newbies use all search... that is really scary!! It is just TMI. And searching for places is not really the same as shopping, so you have cross-purposes here that you have to meet.

But seeing that this is what you are dealing with, then my suggestion for improving results would be:

1. to change your dropdown entirely to a purpose-oriented search. Shopping, Exploring, Learning.

2. In Shopping, you would find all classifieds, places listings with the shopping, adult or business designators, and commercial events. In Exploring, you would find all places, all events, all groups, and the dreaded popular places, and the Wiki. In Learning, you would find the Wiki, places with educational or newcomer friendly designators, and educational events.

3. For all searches, have the featured classifieds sidebar on every result page, and include more ads, say, 20, and in paid order. For shopping, however, a weighted randomization based on price paid would be very effective in the body of search.

4. Put more results per page - people can probably handle a little more information. 20 listings.

5. put "first" "last" "previous page" and "next page" buttons on the search container, so people can navigate easier, as the page length apparently varies with results.

These are my initial thoughts in light of your backstory.

Thanks again for listening!

Hey James, thanks for stopping in.

I think your last point makes sense. You've witnessed how 'noobs' tend to use the UI...it's only natural that you focus your efforts around catering to them. Those of us you label 'power users' are well apt to find what we need--even if we have to rummage through a myriad BDSM ads.

I have faith that you guys will settle on a solid search engine. Heck, to be honest, I think it works just fine as it is.

One more note: I don't think 'ALL' search is a bad thing. If you are a savvy search engine user (if you know what Dogpile is, you probably are), and as long as you search the way we've been trained to, finding a specif product or service is pretty easy. If you're looking for 'oriental rugs' or 'digital cameras' then the search results will give you what you want. Sure, using 'classifieds' may yield less results, but ALL ain't that bad either (unless your selling 'shoes', in which case you shouldn't, because Lord knows there's enough of them out there already)

Cheers.

If you just took the classified category out of the dropdown, and made it clear that you have to search them in the other tab, or just return the results in paid order, then we'd be back to getting what we paid for in the ads. I think that was fairly intuitive under the old search, and newbies got to my place pretty often via the classifieds. Either that, or just stop charging for classifieds altogether.

More and more business owners are starting to see startling declines. The pissed-off testimonials are becoming more frequent. This doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't adapt to the changes. But it is evidence that you shouldn't be charging money for classifieds and promising big returns under this new system.

I, for one, do not like the 8 featured ads even though I'm usually one of them if you search "hotel" or "apartments." It looks like the type of spammy ad I ignore when I'm trying to look at the weather channel page.

And thanks again for listening, James! --Avion

James thank you for asking

1 the search should made for the person searching not content providers.

2 I did a test with 20 people

when using All tab and the any category feature we all got different results. my business showed up differently or not at all for some. I was not able to even find my self under any thing but my classified add. Then we discovered that if you leave the search term "hot tub" in and hit refresh/search you get different results each time. My places listing finally showed up after 6 refreshes.

This would indicate that I am not getting listed but 1/6 of what I should be I only sell hot tubs my objects for sale and search are 90% named "hot tub XXX" and my parcel is named Animated Super Hot Tub Mall.

3 using the same test group
When doing a new "all" search and the "classified" category filter search, the results do seem to be very related to the search term and they remain consistent through out the group of testers even when clicking refresh/search repeatedly.

The really bad part is that my 16k a week ad appears first YAY!! for me and rightly so. I do after all have the largest hot tub mall I have seen areound.

The problem is for me and Linden Labs my competitor simply copied my Classified ad word for word including the miss spellings and she now appears #2 using a 50L ad rite below me.

She does offer many hot tubs just like my mall so if I were searching I would be happy the 2 biggest hot tub malls with the biggest selection showed up. in that order.

However as a content provider that has been paying over 16k a week to advertise for over a year, I am not happy that some one can copy my 16k ad pay 50L and show up rite next to me #1 and #2

I suggest the listing for new "all" search and the "classified" category filter search.. be listed in order of relavence as it seems to b now, and then cost. lets face it some day this may be a "pay-per-click" or or "pay-per-TP" situation. Regaudless no one will pay for an ad that appears next to one that cost 1000% less and is a duplicate of your key words.

4 as for removing the classifieds form the new all / any category

Consider this you are helping to develope the internet 3.0 search engine. So yes you will eventually have to separate the natural results from the paid ones it is only a matter of time.

BUT FIRST!!!!
Make the search window resizeable as it is now the paid ads on the right are worthless with out the inclusion of the paid ads remaining in the main search results area.

Once the window can be made larger or the paid ads are larger showing a partial description for each ad not just the name listing, you are in good shape to make the removal not kill the value of the paid ads,
and people like will continue to pay you big bucks for paid ads.

I would also add a tab called "search help" that out lines the various ways to filter the results and some web links on how to better get noticed as a event host, content provider, or other type of advertiser. links to the web site locations you create would be welcome I am sure.

Further more I would give the weight of traffic a back seat for now as it is too easy to manipulate traffic in world. Maybe have traffic heavily weighted for events. this is a tough one util traffic is an accurate representation of actual "in world time" by real residents not bots and campers.

5 I understand your excitement to get this long awaited feature into SL

I am not happy though that you are conducting such an extensive BETA test out on the main grid this experiment has cost me a 80% drop in sales. for the past several days.

There was little if any warning or support information telling me what was going on
I spent hours in a panic altering my search terms and renaming my objects after viewing Torleys video. Only to find out the reason that the changes were not working is the crawler is separate and about 24 hours behind real time.

And to top it all off, if I had simply hit refresh a few more times I would have discovered the results were not consistent any way, and I was showing up only after hitting refresh several times
.
I hope large scale changes like this are more throughly tested in the test grid first in the future. I would be happy to help in any way.

I hope these suggestions are of help

I have 3 basic types of classifieds - property rentals, prefabs & building services, and my little club. Of all of those, however, only *one* shows up in the body of search, even though they are not necessarily related. What the heck... I suppose the system thinks I'm gaming it - and in a way, I am, with the property rental - but the other two unrelated ads suffer.

I don't understand it - it seems that a person is limited to one classified showing up in the body of search, even if it is distinct from the other ads. This doesn't seem right.

Sorry for quoting Cristalle's entire post here but I have to say that I like this the best so far. My suggestion (I think this is what Cristalle is saying): (Hopefully this is where you're headed...)

Get rid of ALL the tabs. Make it one big search, with drop down choices to narrow the result groups. I definitely agree with Cristalle's "20 listings." We can handle more results, and it's less tedious in the long run to not have to page through a billion pages... half a billion is much better.

And thanks again for popping in! It's VERY reassuring to know that some one is listening.

That's definitely what I'd like to see as well. It makes the most sense, is the most felixible, and the least redundant.

Search for a specific resident:
Old - type in the name, hit enter and done
New - type in the name, pick people from the dropdown, click Search, click the name, click "View Full Profile"

Search for a resident when you're uncertain of the name:
Old - type in part of the name, hit enter and it's one click per name to see the profile
New - type in part of the name, pick people from the dropname, click Search and it's three clicks per name (two to get to the profile, one to click "Back"

Search for a place:
Old - 1 click to teleport / 1 clicks to view a different result
New - 2 clicks to teleport / 2 clicks to view a different result

Unless the new search is changed to use two "frames" like the current specific categories do, it requires far more effort than the current specific tabs to accomplish the exact same thing.

Actually, I like the tabs, because it allows me to start filtering the results I want at a glance, rather than with a dropdown, which takes an extra click.

And I am with Kitty in that I also prefer the frames - you get to see the picture right away, and the full body of an ad. But that can't really work with a featured classified sidebar. It doesn't work terribly well, in my mind's eye. I will, however, vote for change and keep the featured classified sidebar.

My approach to James' problem is to make search all a little more focused, but not too focused - delivering relevant content that fits the purpose of the search, but not too much so as to drown out the results. The one thing I forgot was the "Special Attractions" classified - which is basically for events and clubs, and could fall under exploring.

My brain hurts. hehe.

Good points, but you've left out having to click the specific tab to begin with.

Actually I just use Alt-arrow to switch between the different tabs (which is faster than picking from the dropdown ).

I also left out that I sometimes use several tabs at the same time: I might be shopping for something and want to keep the results of "Places" up with my current highlight and see someone ask a question on the mentor group and have to search for them to IM. That wouldn't be possible with just the new search either.

---

Thinking about it in general and things I'd like to see:

* change the drop-down into a group of checkboxes: places+classifieds is probably quite commonly desired, seeing residents/groups/etc in between store results isn't. You could just tick/untick the kind of results you want without having to deal with clutter from the other categories

* an extra "Objects for sale" category: the only time I use the new search right now is when I'm looking for a specific item. I'm not really interested in a list of stores that *claim* they sells hammocks by using it as a keyword, I'm interested in list of stores that actually *do* sell hammocks.

I like that checkboxes idea, both because it makes search results cleaner (you only see the categories you are interested in) and because it makes it a little clearer that searching Classifieds in the All search is different than searching in the Classified tab.

Basically, with the menu as it is now, switching to Classifieds looks like this is THE Classifieds search, whereas checkboxes for filters makes it clear that you are still searching All but only seeing a subset of the results.


I may be a little rusty on my math, but this doesn't make sense.

I pay 16000.000 for an ad
someone else pays 50.000

you do the math It is like 750%

I am paying hundreds of times why they pay to be listed on the same page one notch above them

listing 1 product XXX cost 16000 L$
listing 2 Product XYZ cost 50L$

in a paid ad system this makes no sense

get it now??

I don't like this. Expensive ads don't count anymore. Small ads with the keyword typed out 100 times do better. Just go to the All tab under and type skins. All the ads have skin at least 50 times. Price doesn't matter anymore and guess what will happen.

Excellent ideas, Kitty.

Thankies .

One more that's probably wishful thinking, but something Google does do on occasion (which should negate any "it won't scale":

* Being listed in search should be a privilege, not a right: if someone's blatantly abusing their keywords/objects for sale, the listing should be pulled for 4 weeks (or whatever random amount of time).

I don't think too many people would want to game search if they risk being removed altogether.

They definitely need to fix it so that the same word appearing multiple times in a description doesn't give the listing higher relevance. If that's how it is now it's going to get really stupid really fast.

"****!!!!!111111AAAAAAAAAAAA Skin Store -
skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins skins.... ad infinitum"

Okay, this is going to sound horrible and will totally overburden the Abuse Report team, but what about adding "search abuse" to the terms of reportable offenses? e.g. "skin skin skin etc"?

It was always my understanding & belief that the old ALL search was the most common way of seaching for things.....I'm glad that James kind of confimed that through his own observations. It makes you wonder why many businesses & malls got so focused on traffic numbers by placing camping & bot farms..........what a waste of money, which could have been spent on meaniful classified ads or other forms of marketing.

I mean really what was the point of having POPULAR PLACES anyway? It just tells me which SIM is operating the biggest camping farm. You actually visit any of theses places and they tend to be very bland in design and laggy. The vendors there tend be from the low quality end, mostly BIAB's. These type of places can only really be of interest to campers & their bots themselves.

When i'm trying to find products, i've always tended to use ALL, Classifieds & SLEX, rarely have i ever used PLACES.

*nods*

Most of all I was just thinking about the impact a "cheat the new search and you could find yourself removed" would have just by itself. Or maybe I'm just naive to think that that would scare anyone off .

Why should it, when there are alts?

I had started a new post on this before discovering this one, it was suggested that I should add my information here. I hope it is useful to someone.

---- paste---
Are expensive classified ads worth the cost?
I'm wondering in anyone else has tried measuring the results of a more expensive classified advertisement?

My business income is down significantly from last year at this time. It now takes an entire week to make what I was earning per day last year. There is lots more competition, more stores, more listings in land and classifieds to compete with, making it harder for people to find my store. So I have been considering the benefits of advertising more seriously.

I previously had two L$50 classified ads. Checking out the ads I found that if I placed an ad at L$9,000 per week, it would move my listing from the last page to the first page of the classifieds. So I decided to try it for a week and see what happened.

Here is a comparison of the sales results after one week.

Sales 11/23-11/29 = $10,563 <--- w/ L$50 classified
Sales 11/30-12/6 = $11,964 <--- w/ L$9,000 classified

So I clearly lost money, almost a weeks worth of income.

The L$9,000 classified generated the following traffic:
63 tp, 3 map, 3 profile

In order for me to have broken even on the cost of the classifieds, all 63 people who teleported to my store would have had to spend L$143.

From my perspective the expensive classified ad was a looser. Has anyone else had a different experience?