Right to Roam

Actually we /can/, as we're talking about two completely separate things, really.

Charming...as if there's no other reason someone might want a little privacy.

You say vehicles count towards total prims - she says they don't. Seems like the same issue to me.

Damn. I just wasted my 1000th post.

No, I said that as long as a prim rezzed at a certain X,Y,Z coord counts towards my prim allotment, it is my land, disputing your "You don't really own that land" claim. Me and Ceera then got into a slight disagreement over the technicalities of vehicle prims, although I have never actually outright disputed Ceera's claim, just noted that - in a different implementation of the prim-accounting mechanics - vehicles DO count as prims. Even then, we could both be right, because LL is not exactly known for logic and consistency.

Conan, you really are wasting your breath (err fingers) on that one. I only hope I'm not around when he finally snaps and decides to blow something up.

Well, I've generally noticed those are the ones with "kick ten sims away with no warning" type security systems.

I think, then, we can agree that if I rez a balloon on my land, fly upwards to, let's say, 1000m and then drift over your land it won't affect your prim count - based on what we know so far. If so, then we can atleast put that bit of the issue to bed.

Well... No.

I don't know that I agree or not. Ceera says this is so, and I can't log in right now to test it. It may in fact be so, I don't think Ceera is the type of person to make things up. I would even go so far as to say it probably is so. But it doesn't jive with what I know, and I cannot prove it at this moment, so I don't agree.

Besides, if you got OUT of the vehicle up there, we're back to square one. That definitely counts towards my prims.

Coupla quick comments.

I've built up to 767 meters--hit 768 and things just go kablooey.

I've been able to fly just about everywhere above that altitude, until I hit a parcel that is full, then, BAM, everything flies apart...or just freezes. Sometimes. Or not. It seems random.

Scripts work at altitude, even if scripts are disabled on the ground. Go to Ahern with a scripted object, try to use it on the ground. Then fly up about 250 or more meters...presto!

There's more, but THE POINT OF ALL THIS is that it would be nice to just fly around quietly and sightsee, or travel in something more leisurely and humane than a TP (dammit, Jim, I didn't sign up on this ship to have my molecules bounced around the metaverse!). Reputedly, it used to be this way, until added features just sort of....sealed some of the airsparce off.

It's not about property rights (although you'd better stay off my land, greenhorn), it's about what you want out of SL.

So, what about a new "feature" for SL that would solve this problem (along with that of sim border crossings...!) Sounds like something for SL 2.0, Demise of the Betaverse!

Trespassing is another matter entirely. If all my stuff is on the ground, I probably don't care if you pass overhead at 700M in your blimp. If I am on my sky platform at 700M, and your blimp repeatedly buzzes my platform... well, that isn't just 'passing through'.

I'm afraid you won't ever win this argument, Conan. People have too much differing opinion on what constitutes their rights in SL.

As for the prims and vehicles stuff, yes, I've tested the precise effects of vehicles on parcel prim counts. I can rez a pirate ship that is a 27-prim vehicle plus a 250 prim attachment. I can drive that ship onto someone else's parcel, and it will have no effect on the land owner's prim count. But if I disembark, then all the prims of that vehicle are treated as if I just tried to rez them on that person's land. If there are not enough prims available, it will, usually, auto-return the vehicle to the owner's Lost and Found. But dumping lots of prims on someone else's land CAN cause negative effects too, including causing some of their things to be returned.

And as furry, I have also tested the effects of avatar attachments on parcel prim counts. I once was trying to modify a multi-position prim tail. It had over 75 prims in its construction. My own parcel was so full that I couldn't rez the tail on the ground to work on it. Yet I could go visit a friend's parcel, where she had more prims available and alloowed me to build, and work on it there. Once it was done, I could still *wear* that 75-prim tail on my own land, and there was no effect on prim count. But I couldn't drop it on the ground or it would auto-return, because the parcel was too full.

I have had to deal with many vehicles that were dumped on lane owned by my household. I used to live next door to an SL airstrip that was just across the sim boundry. It wasn't at all uncommon for a plane's scripts to malfunction at the sim boundry, not because of our parcel restrictions, but because of the boundry itself, and the plane would continue on that trajectory and crash on our land. It also wasn't all that uncommon for us to have banlines set to prohibit entry by no-payment-on-file residents, and sometimes the parcel eject when they tried flying over our land would unseat them from their aircraft. Unfortunately, this is why a lot of people asked for and use the ability to ban object entry for anyone who isn't authorized. Because griefers were intentionally flying vehicles into areas that banned them, so the planes would drop like unguided missiles into the banned area.

This isn't about winning an argument (except to Elmore). I just wanted some opinions an idea that I thought would make SL a better place for everyone (except Elmore).

The idea of being able to fly about places adds a new dimension to business world - the idea of "passing trade" which simply doesn't exist in SL at all. 768m is a bit high up to see people's goods, but had I suggested the idea of being able to fly about any lower and Elmore would have died of a stroke there and then.

Okay, well we'll leave the question of prim count to one side then since we can't prove anything one way or another.

And it was good Conan. Unfortunately too many people couldn't see outside the box. They immediately saw all the limitations and the "why not's".

My answer to you is YES it would be great. How it would be done to satisfy as many people as possible, I don't know. The initial concept is always the first important step and I thought yours was a good one....still do.

Isn't the answer to the prim question that prims you WEAR as attachments don't count against the parcel limits, but prims that you SIT on do?

So if you rez your vehicle (anywhere) and sit on it it uses up prims, if you wear it without rezzing, it doesn't.

That's how I understood it intially - otherwise there would have been no need for the suggestion that property boundaries end at 768m. If Ceera is right and sat-on vehicles don't count either, I'd never have suggested that - the point of that bit of the proposal was to save land owners' prim counts (except Elmore's) and was mean't as a compromise in order to prevent any negative impact on landowners. Unforunately there are those who insist on putting principles before practicalities - "It's a matter of principle!"; the mating cry of the lesser spotted sentimental reactionary.

Conan this seems like a viable issue. You should propose it in JIRA. I'm not weighing in one way or another, but to get the Lindens to read it, you should post it in JIRA. They DO read them. I was there today.

Yes, that is a difference between what Ceera said and what Reitsuki mentioned. Ceera specifically mentioned working on a tail (I think it was a tail) and the difference between rezing it and wearing it. Reitsuki mentioned rezing something on someone else's land and having it count on that land's prim total.

A horse that you wear to ride should not count on the land you are standing on (unless you rez the horse), though the greater the number of prims in a sim, the greater the lag.

A biplane, blimp, etc. that you wear to ride would have the same prim impact on the land as the horse that you wear (as in no prims being used up on that land). Most planes/blimps, etc., though, are items that you rez and then "sit on".

Through testing - you can ride a horse that you wear into a full parcel, you cannot fly a plane that you sit in (and do not have attached to your avatar) into that full parcel.

So I gathered. The point of the tread was to get the communities opinion first. 57% against it so far. Although looking back, maybe the question was too specific. Judging from the posts, opinion seems split more like 50/50.

Just hypothetically - say LL could give you the option to allow people to fly over your land or sail through the water in your sims, and if you set your land to allow this, people would only be able to fly overhead or sail their ships. They could not rez anything on your land or leave their ships, use the area as a sandbox, etc. Finally, suppose that if all they were doing was flying by or sailing through, your prim count would not be affected. Let's set a floor on the height as well.

How many of you that are complaining now would still be complaining. I don't see the above a being any different than someone flying over my RL property. I bought it, I pay taxes on it, and planes fly over it all the time. Of course, I can't huild an airbox at 768M over my land, so there's a difference.

What harm would that do? How could it possibly hurt you to allow people to fly overhead just as they do in RL, as long as they couldn't build, park, or screw up your prim count? On the issue of details, I think Conan was just trying to start a discussion and was looking at input. Landowners: on the issue of height, what height would be appropriate?

Lastly, I'm just interested in this in general, so it has the potential of being an interesting argument. I don't know what LL is or is not capable of, and I don't expect anything to come of it. Heck, all those dark sims on the map that don't exist - I'd like to see them open to boating so I could have a floating party in the yacht I haven't bought yet, but I really don't think that's possible at all. Consider the expense of buying the servers and then figuring out how to restrict the area to boats and aircraft so they didn't become floating sandboxes.

and you've only got the opinion of 50 residents out of "46000"

Not that you like to fly biplanes or anything.....completely neutral, our Trout.

On the issue of vehicle prim counts, yes, a vehicle that you rez on a parcel counts against that parcel, whether you are on it at the moment or not. Same goes for any object that you rez and then sit on. So if you rez a plane on your parcel, and get on it, yes, the plane still counts. At that point it's no different than a bed or a chair that is scripted.

But if you now fly that plane onto the adjacent parcel, it does NOT, in my experience, count against the second parcel's prims. As it enters the parcel, it is considered to be an avatar attachment, *unless you get off*. I have moved that 277-prim pirate ship into a 117-prim allocation parcel belonging to someone else, with absolutely no ill effects for my vehicle or his prims and prim count. At the very least, the 250-prim part that was attached to me certainly didn't count, and as I recall in my test, there were not even enough prims free to support the 27-prim actual vehicle hull. But I know for a fact he only owned 512 M2 in that sim, and only had a prim allocation of 117 prims. So as long as he rezzed the vehicle elsewhere, and didn't get off, his prim count was not negatively affected.

When a parcel is actually "full", well, there it gets dicey. Most vehicles themselves are 31 prims or less. Most parcels have more than that free, so you could fly over them and not have problems even if the prims did count. At this point it depends, apparntly, on how the vehicle itself is scripted and constructed. Some vehicles can't enter a 'full' parcel, and others can. If "Object Entry" is turned off for a parcel, you definitely can't move your vehicle into that parcel, at least at normal altitudes, unless you have group or owner permissions to do so. If a parcel is very close to its prim limit, that may be where the vehicle has problems, if it isn't built or scripted just right. Or perhaps the vehicle is refused entry with "Parcel Full" if it is moved into a parcel that wouldn't support the vehicle if you got off it, but only when the land is NOT owned by the vehicle owner? That would make a certain abount of sense, as a way to prevent griefers from dumping vehicles on a victim's parcel.

I am a very experienced builder, but vehicles are not my specialty. The testing I have done was specificly becaise as an Estate Manager, I was trying to resolve problems that a 512 M2 parcel owner had when he rezzed one of those same pirate ships out in the public-access lagoon, and tried to sail it up to his own beach. As soon as he disembarked, the ship *and his house* both got returned, due to parcel full problems. It was quite a mess. Yet he had been able to land and go away again, with no issues, as long as he didn't get off the vehicle.

*EDIT* One of the other posters may have captured the key difference. A vehicle you 'wear' versus a vehicle that you 'sit in'. Probably the 'sat-on' pottion would count against prims, at least for the purpose of parcel boundry entry.

About the same number as use the forums isn't it?

As far as I know (which is about as far as I can throw Trout), attachments don't count toward prims. Otherwise, anyone with a 200 prims hair would get kicked out of a 512 parcel. If you attach (sit in) a vehicle, it doesn't count toward prims on the parcel. Likewise, people can enter a no create/no enter objects parcel and still wear their attachments. Therefore, to Trout, landowners could still set their parcels to no create/no entry (of objects) and people could sail/fly through them.

I agree completely with the OP's idea. It was pretty disheartening to buy a plane...and then be able to basically do nothing but buzz around in a small circle because I couldn't cross parcel/sim borders in most places.
Conan isn't talking about *building* anything...just being able to have a travelling right-of-way above a certain altitude. Hell, I'd LOVE to be able to take a flying tour of SL.