Right to Roam

You certainly do.

That would pretty much solve the matter to everyone's satisfaction - if we're very very lucky, even Elmore might not object (possibly).

And if, as you suggest, sat-on vehicles'r prims are also tracked to the avatar, then I really can't see why anyone at all (except Elmore) objects to my proposal - no one loses anything at all.



I think this illustrates my point.

You cannot change the terms of property ownership after the fact *unless the owner agrees to it*.

If your point is that you and those like you cannot see, nor cope with, nor intellectually refute any point with which you disagree, then yes, your point is grandly made and amply illustrated.

You: Let me come in your house.

Me: No.

You: I'm not going to hurt anything or take anything, so you can have no objection to me coming in your house.

Me: No. And I have a gun.

You: Then at least let me roam through your flower garden and climb your trees.

Me: No, and I now have a gun with a scope on it.

I think there are some points in all these arguments that no one has hit on:

1) Do we want LL adding yet another *feature* to SL? We all know what happens when they do that: More Bork!

2) Even if the majority could agree on this issue (and from the poll it looks like that's a definate No), do you think that LL would go to all the trouble to rewrite the way property bounderies are handled? Maybe when pigs fly, hell freezes over, and Britney Spears gets a Masters degree in Economics. And if they did, see point #1 again.

So, to sum this all up: Do we want More Bork so a few can freely fly wherever they want?

I know I don't.

EXACTLY!

ME: Let me fly an airship a mile over your land in sky that isn't actually yours anyway.

YOU: No

ME: Why?

YOU: That would be communism

ME: How?

YOU: Because I say so and I object to everything any member of the human race does. And quit breathing so heavy near my land too.

That seems a bit more like it.

One other thing that would make for a LOT fewer high-altitude security scripts would be if LL would get off their duffs and implement the "Privacy in a Pocket" proposal. They already agreed that it was technically feasable and worth implementing to allow an area between two certain altitudes, say between 768 M and 668 M, to be made unrenderable by anyone not on the parcel access list. In other words, I could build a private sky home way up there, and if you were not on the access list to go there, you could fly right by in your blimp and not even know my build was there. It would not render any prims or avatars in that cube of space, and if you weren't otherwise banned from the area, you could likely fly straight through it and not detect anything (and we wouldn't detect you, either, from inside the skybox). Or at worst case, you could still safely fly in 'sky lanes' above or below that "protected height range", was long as nothing else stopped you, and maybe you would see a plain cube occupying the protected volume of space.

On my land in a public access sim, I usually set it up so the ground level was free access - no ban lines, and I used a security orb in my skybox when I wanted privacy up there. SO you could still fly through at 500M, between my skybox and my home on the ground, or you could sail a boat along my shoreline, and not hit any ban effects.

You keep saying this. I keep reminding you that my prim allotment furnishes that space. You haven't yet found any argument that refutes that.

Conan, what your kind will never grasp is that just because you WANT something and you cannot see, grasp, or otherwise conceive how someone else could object to it does NOT mean you have any right or claim to OTHER PEOPLE'S PROPERTY.

Your ill-conceived demand is essentially, "Well, golly, I want access to your land, and I'm not hurting it according to my opinion, so how could you possibly deny me, and aren't you a terribly mean person for even entertaining the notion that my demands for access to your land should not be granted?"

In some cases, jumping up and down screaming, "I want, I want, I want" regardless of the fact that you have no right to the property in question is something one outgrows as a toddler. When one does not, one becomes the sort of leftist who petitions the government to "reclaim" others' property in the name of emminent domain.

You're wasting your time, Reitsuki, in asking for an actual argument refuting an objective opinion. This isn't about intellectual debate; this is a matter of emotion, in which a grasping, mewling beggar demands what others' own and have purchased through their own labor and effort, simply because that beggar WANTS something and doesn't "see" how anyone could object to being told they should hand it over. You horribly, horribly selfish person!

Cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos


It is my land, keep your trespassing ass off of it.

According to Ceera it doesn't; "On the other hand, if you rez a plane on your land, fly through my airspace, and fly out the other side, you don't affect my prim count, no matter how prim-heavy your vehicle ans attachments are. Because those prims are tracked to the avatar, and not to my land. It's when you leave litter behind that it starts eating my resources."

One of you is wrong.

You really need to get that reading problem sorted out you know.

I'm bored of repeating myself now.

Why don't you get a nice glass of juice and have a nap - then the grown ups can talk. Reitsuki and are trying to have a mature discussion here, son.

If land is set so as not to allow you to build on it, your cannot affect the prim allotment. You are nonetheless TRESPASSING on that land if youv'e been told you're not welcome. The land belongs to someone else, and that property right extends to any and all areas where the THEORETICAL rezzing of a prim counts against the owner's total.

Saying, "But I'm not hurting anything" doesn't give you the right to trespass. IT IS NOT YOUR LAND. Buy your own land and run it as you wish. Start a hippy commune. Open it to all and let the skies be filled to nearly 800 meters with fanciful airships. But do it WITH YOUR OWN PROPERTY AND NOT BY DEMANDING ACCESS TO OTHERS' LAND.

Actually Reitsuki, as long as he remains at the controls of the airship and doesn't get off it, SL treats his blimp as an avatar attachment, just as it treats my 50 prims worth of furry avatar attachments or some escort's 100 prims of twisted torus ringlet hair. Where it becomes a problem is if he abandons the blimp over our land, or if he can do other things in terms of launching scripts or rezzing items while he is up there.

I don't know if Ceera is right or not, because I know for a fact that a parcel that doesn't have enough prims to handle the plane will eject you with a "Parcel full" message.

But I do know for a fact that I'm not wrong - vehicles are not the only prims that can exist up there, and any prims up there - even, for the moment, setting aside vehicles - DO count against my prim allotment, ergo, it's still on my land.

The issue is not, and never has been, whether an interloping roamer is affecting the prim count in actuality; the issue is whether the property owner has the right to decide who can and cannot enter the property. A land owner is free to restrict ALL outside access to his property. Most don't, as far as I can tell, myself included.

The beggars would have us allow a portion of our land to be "reclaimed" for the communist public good. This would rewrite the property agreement after the fact and is therefore immoral. The request -- the DEMAND -- is an act of theft.

Yeah, see my follow up. I'm going to do some testing of this tonight, it's an interesting factoid if its true, but not particularly useful knowledge.

Actually, try flying into a parcel that is full - most times, if not every-time I can't. Why? Because the prims do count.

1) Get land.
2) check about land and then prim count
3) Rez blimp on that land
3) check about land and then prim count again - did the number go up?
4) Now "climb aboard" your blimp
5) check prim count on the land again - you will find that the prims are still there, but are "sat upon" or whatever the term is in SL.

@Conan, I guess you already feel sorry that you actually asked...

You might as well pick up a copy of Flight Simulator X or X-Plane. At least there the physics aren't 1970's era and the graphics aren't ass.

The altitude at which you can fly while not coming anywhere near people's floating screw-rooms is already safe unless you're explicitly banned, in which case you shouldn't be over their parcel anyway.

With SL's craptacular graphics, just about all you're going to see at that altitude is a horizon and a sea of gray. Congratulations if you've developed an enjoyable IFR simulation, but you could just as easily fly at 2,000m than 768m. (You can hand place the VOR stations between safe routes anyway).

SL isn't going to have much in the way of open expanses of terrain because LL built the infrastructure to cost as much as possible for tiny 256x256 postage stamps of land (I guess the servers have solid gold cases and are powered by purebred animals which require succulent five star meals 6 times a day). People will fight for every square inch up to the moon over any bit of land they own.

This argument is wrong, simply for the fact that it is the parcel owner's land, the parcel owners prim count, etc. no mater how high you go.

And just to verify, I went on my land, donned my JVA Extreme Flight Amulet and whooshed up to 3000m and climbing, clicked on "About Land" and guess what? It says it is my land.

Mine, not yours, not anyone else's although by my permission, anyone is welcome to visit.

There are plenty of open sims and public areas to fly or boat around. FLying over the main land is marginal at best because of access/ban lines and entering full parcels.

That's what we're trying to establish here. You and Ceera can't both be right so we need to establish this point before we can move on. Some here are saying Ceera is mistaken.

Also, if you re-read my original post, all I have suggested is a ceiling on No Script restrictions at a level yet to be decided (I said 700m originally, but that was an arbitrary figure and detail to be worked out later). Many many land owners wouldn't object to people flying over head where they do no harm, but currently have no choice but to limit scripts to stop griefers. If they were given the flexibility, I'm sure most (except Elmore) would be willing to allow people to fly over harmlessly while still limiting scripts below the ceiling (whatever that may be). Banlines would still remain at their current levels (whatver they are).

Sorry but you are wrong. My Skybox is at 750m.

In my experience, most people are more than happy to let people fly over their land or sail by or whatever. It only becomes an issue when someone comes in demanding that people be forced to do so.

More flies with honey than with vinegar, and all that.