Age Verification (Poll)

If you acknowledge that Aristotle will be using voter rolls from the UK, why did you feel the need to change my wording to 'Americans only'? Seems very odd.

I find it both sad and funny that the "popular" winner of this poll
requires using CC services in a way that VISA (and others) have
said is inappropriate.

You agree to a terms of service while you are using their program. You agree and assert that you are at or over the age of 18 years of age. You do not have an agreement that allows them to be privy to your personal vital information. They have no right to ask for such information. They are crossing an unethical (and possibly illegal) threshold here.

The terms of service assert that the service is not available to those under the age of 18, and that LL can ask for whatever information ("qualification to use the service" as they put it) that they want, whenever they want.

Besides THEY WON'T KEEP THIS EXTRA INFORMATION. They ONLY use it to VERIFY ONCE.

some odd reason I feel safer if they were saying they were keeping it instead of most likely lieing to us saying there not.

It is my understanding that an organization cannot ask for your social security number (other than for tax reasons or security background checks). You cannot be required to give your social security number for any other reason. I believe they actually could be reported for requiring it.

Exactly! Did you ever bother to read the damn thing? Like Haravikk said, it stipulates LL's right to verify. No doubt, when age verification is rolled out, the ToS will be amended with more specific rights of LL to verify you, but it's already in there. Your agreement with LL doesn't come with a right to be anonymous. The fact that LL will still allow those who want to to be anonymous by not verifying, isn't even something they are obligated to do.

To be exact: a government agency cannot require your SSN (except the usual exceptions). They can ask for it, but only if refusal to give doesn't result in the loss of rights and privileges one has by law.

The part of the US Privacy Act people seem to be referring to doesn't apply to this case. LL is not a government, and refusal to give your SSN will not result in the loss of rights and privileges you have by law. You won't lose you freedom of speech or any right like that, you lose the privilege of accessing the adult parts of a game. Why are people treating this as a breach of civil rights?

You are my hero tonight.

i didn't acknowledge that. i said "i have the feeling" they might do that. big difference between speculation and fact.

people keep saying what's the big deal .. they only want x number of digits from SS number .. like it's incontrovertible fact. well, that knowledge is a luxury, believe me, because the rest of the world still hasn't got a clue exactly what Integrity requires of them, and if we did know, it might calm the situation down a little.

Got to ask........... what are these parent doing out there to make sure their offspring aren't able to get 'into' games that are unsuitable?

With web browers/some ISP's they supply parental controls.. why can't LL use a different IP for underage login and let the parents use a security code to prevent their children from gaining access to the main grid?

I don't know off hand what the ratio between adults and children in game, but its a cheaper and easier solution.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the 'Laws'.. the platform belong solely to LL.. is someone going to try and sue them for not allowing them to use the game, if they see fit to prevent that? TOS is quite clear, none of us have legal access rights to anything to do with the game.

Apparently you missed the "owning a credit card does not make one an adult."

Nor does being an adult mean you own a credit card.

As a canadain citizen I am by the law of my country not obligated to give out my SIN number to anyone, not even the people I am employed with. So LL is not getting my SIN number, they should forget this number for any country and focus on a number that would not help people steal your identity.

I agree with William Shakespear - "First thing we need to do is kill all the lawyers"
These are Pixles there are no naked people here, just avatars. It is called Virtual reality for a reason, it IS NOT REAL, it doesn't even work right more than half the time. LL has shown us time and time again, thet they cannot do things correct, or secure. This is about money, and if they want mine they can forget about getting any personal info.

Fantastic!!! Yet another wonderful feature thought up by linden labs to overcomplicate the second lives of all its residents. What could possibly be better then that? Hmm what about the fact that we’ll be expected to pay for it, and then be forced to deal with the fall out when this, like so many other things in secondlife of late, goes awry?
First of all, I, like every single person I know, don’t care much if we’re charged a hundred dollars or a linden for this ‘service’, either way it’s still asking us to shell out to help deal with a problem that linden labs created out of their own ignorance to the situation from the beginning. Not to mention that all of us with pay accounts have already offered up our credit card and banking info and shelled out stupid amounts of money to be a part of a world that a good friend of mine often refers to as something built by munchkins on L.S.D. That information is apparently good enough to take our money, but not good enough to act as age verification. I personally had to jump through freaking hoops to validate my account last September, and because of second life I now have a whole lot of personal info just floating around in cyber space that I have NEVER previously tied to any of my online actions. And I am seriously curious as to how the creators of our fine world could have over looked this little age matter from the beginning. Sure, let’s create a world where people have the freedom to do and create whatever their sick little minds desire, but NOT bother to look into this whole age thing, thus opening us up to countless possible lawsuits in the future. Brilliant folks, bravo.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all for keeping children out of adult places (hell, while we’re at it why not do away with the creepy child avs? Another pet peeve, but not the matter at hand) but not like this. Got to say, I am so far against this idea that I’m ready to pack up and find myself another universe to recreate. If linden labs had any kind of reliability in their history as far as I’ve seen, I may feel differently, but all I have seen of late is a whole lot of ‘what the hell are they doing now’s, and frankly, I’m just not really interested in giving up anymore personal info to a company that I feel doesn’t care about it’s customers, let alone their safety and privacy near so much as they do about our dollars.
Though its my guess that either a court order or legal advisors have put this little ball in motion, surely someone sitting at head office has the intelligence to see what a horrible mistake implementing this age verification wave is business wise. You recall the Titanic right? Can anyone say ‘jump ship’? Come on people, we live in a virtual community that encourages people to let loose all inhibitions and be/do/say/act how they feel. We have people parading around in ball gags and silks, men dressing, acting and living as women, people decked out as animals and vampires and any number of other interesting creatures, and behind these avs safely shielded by their computer screens, many of these people are no doubt business men and women, housewives, teachers and lawyers and doctors. How many of these respectable types really want to pass every shred of their personal information across the internet, let alone to a company that (yes I have said this already) does not inspire trust? I play a simple female in sl.. Lo and behold, I am a simple female in rl.. I still don’t feel confident in sharing said info to a system so entirely full of flaws and screw ups that in most cases could be avoided if the linden think tank cared more about the world we pay for then the money we pay.
The fact that you’re tagging the word ‘optional’ on this doesn’t make me feel any better about the situation. My home sim, though at least 90% pg contains its own share of hidden ‘adult’ areas. In order to even go to my home, I’d have to submit to the age verification. Every person out there that is of perfectly legal age, but has lost and yet to replace ID will automatically be barred from their own home sims should this be the case, as well as many other places they have always frequented. And all the while, every single kid out there that actually wants to be in the adult sections of the grid will find a way to get there. Not to hard to sneak mommy or daddy’s ID info while they’re backs are turned.. god knows a sixteen year old version of myself would have done so easily enough.
To sum it up, I don’t believe this age verification wave will do a damn thing about keeping the kids out, but it sure as hell will piss off, lock out and upset a whole lot of us of legal age, thus forcing us to take our money elsewhere. Please rethink this before you destroy what we’ve been paying for all this time.


To see more opinions on this matter check out http://yanai.blackmage.org/sky2/?page_id=2543

Wrong. The adult flag is not going to be issued at sim level, but on parcel level. Even if your sim were 100% Mature, with Adult parcels surrounding you at each side, you would still be able to teleport into your own, Non-Adult, PG or Mature home without having to submit to the age verification.

It really baffles me that so many opposed to age and identity verification either don't seem to be able to read very well or feel the need to exaggerate to the point of misinformation when discussing this. While I have no problem with this verification, I can see why some people have cause to be concerned. Why not voice those legitimate concerns without resorting to nonsensical drama-stories?

Damn well said.
To add to this you don't have to go to daddy's wallet, smart teens now a days know that much of this info can be obtained off the net and will work perfectly well for verification, and as a bonus I hear they verify bud.tv so go ahead and try out ways to circumvent the system. Its totally ridiculous and I could have not written it better! Glad to see this posted in an exposed part of the posts.

If you are CC enrolled now, LL can send a letter to you where you sign it certifying you are an adult, living at the filed address. You send the letter back to LL,they keep it on file.
For those without CC's, someone smarter than me will have to figure out a way to do it, outside of denying access totally.

I was talking about the land where I live sweetie ; not the surrounding area. It really baffles me that so many people are so utterly clueless to the many many flaws in this form of age verification. If I belived for one iota of a second that this would actually get the kids off the grid and save even one child from exploitation, I'd be all over it. But I don't belive that, not at all. And further more, I believe that it is a case of LL asking more from its customers again then they are giving us back. I think the entire propsal is flawed because there are so many people that will be negatively effected by this, and a lot of the SL community that make it such a desirable place to be will take this action as the final straw and simply leave, taking their money with them. Not to mention the fact that it is being shoved down our throats; whatever happened to democracy? Obviously there are other, much better options for dealing with this at hand and the community should have a say in the proceedings. But Suzy, I'm glad you have no personal issues with it, you imense reading skills must make the whole situation ok.

Since 2002 all Uk electors have been able to choose to prevent access to this data for other than government or police purposes. Integrity will find no record of these people.

This really is quite an important point. I can very readily accept that credit cards can be HELD by under 18's in many jurisdictions. But is the name of the under-18 the only one on the contract ? Are there significant jurisdictions where an under 18 can legally enter into such financial contracts alone ?
If the main contract is with an adult, and the adult gets copies of the statements, shouldn't s/he be monitoring the charges ?
If SL makes sure the charge includes the words "ADULT_ONLY CONTENT", wouldn't they then have an accountable person to pursue. Isn't that the essence of what they need ?

Do teenagers in the US really get a credit card contract entirely on their own, with no adult guarantor to monitor what they are doing ?

i wonder how many people opt out? maybe that's where other sources of ID enter the equation (license, passport, etc.)? ok, ok, i'm clutching at straws, and should probably just stop speculating.
the problem is that it's not just a credit card problem. my 16 yr old cousin just got a VISA debit card (in the UK) after opening a cardcash account with HBOS.. it only works if he has funds in his account and as far as i know, it's impossible for an online vendor to detect whether it's a credit or debit card. they only know it's a VISA. he didn't require parental consent to open the bank account and the statements will all be addressed to him.

Very well said. I could not of said it better.

This verification is against the law in many countrys including mine the information LL wants us to give, such as photo copy of my passport, and my country ID number that is big no no. At this rate LL is going to have more then just the German and American government on them. If they are in turn forcing others such as my self to break our countrys laws.

LL this whole system you have came up with, will do nothing but destroy you and SL.