Capitalists Everywhere Support Philip Linden's Dwell Decision

*jaw drops*
You're talking about Flipper? OMG are you offbase. He doesn't get an income from SL, he is the CTO of a very successful company in RL.

I don't have a couple of hours to list all of his contributions to SL, both to individuals and to the metaverse. I know of very few people who have given as freely of his time and money to make SL a success. I also am frequently amazed with his patience at continuing to help new people long after most of us have burned out.

Linden Labs has a track record of co-opting talented residents, so it's no surprise that Flip has contributed on larger projects. If they haven't contacted you, maybe it's because you have nothing to offer besides pejorative posts.

I have to agree. Flip has been fantastic to me and a great supporter of activities and events in SL.

Like I told you Lewis, it pays to do your research. One ends up looking like a fool less frequently.

Lewis, people here have TRIED to reach you. I have tried. Truth is you are a spoiled ASSHOLE who can NEVER be wrong, NEVER be questioned, and NEVER be disagreed with. That is part of the reason you are so UNLIKEABLE. NO ONE likes a smart ass who thinks he's ALWAYS right and EVERYONE ELSE is always wrong. Show me ONE SINGLE POST where you have admitted you were wrong, mis-informed, or made a mistake, or changed your mind due to presentation of the facts or other opinions. You are just OBNOXIOUS, plain and simple. I am normally a quiet, non-violent and tolerant person. If I had to sit in a room and listen to you, I would probably rap you in the mouth. Sorry to derail the thread, but there is no forum for this post, and it probably violates a dozen rules. But Lewis, I read these forums daily and when I come across your posts, I just start to burn. You are one of the most IRRITATING and easy-to-hate people I have ever seen in here.

Sorry, had to get it out.... so sue me.

Ranma (and others) there is nothing wrong in wanting a stable currency with true fungible value. I do not really care if it the Gold Linden (directly linked to real life gold via an exchange traded fund) or Anshe Chung's A$ dollar or for that matter US dollars or even UK Pound Sterling or god help me the Euro.

Just as long as I can transfer it into my bank account and spend it at Asda/Tesco/Walmart et al. And it has legal real life fungible value.

Regardless of your views of Second Life, that is game/platform or your use of this VR world as anything from a social platform to that of a full time real life business I cannot see any reason why anybody would object. After all you do not have to spend money to use Second Life (apart from tier if you "own" land) but many do spend cash and my objective is to remove the uncertainty factor.

The Linden dollar operation would be considered highly suspect in my own country (UK) in my opinion, as people are spending real life cash on buying a depreciating so called asset in the hope of making money on the back of what could be termed by some as highly misleading advertising by Linden Labs.

Clearly any new currency will find its own level in terms of value. But if it is based on gold which is around $62 as I type, or US dollars everybody from content creators, through to land owners, and any other business, would ultimately gain because they have the certainty of being paid if anyone buys something.

So... effectively... LL's been wasting incentives on you because they don't encourage you to do something you were going to do anyway.
And to hell with everyone that doesn't share your narrow view of what SecondLife SHOULD be?

You and your opinions get no respected because you show absolutely no respect to people with opinions that don't mesh perfectly with your own.

(I left out 'income' in your quote because you've displayed an inverse care about that.)

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You claim to look at things objectively. I'd be interested to see how you define that. You insist, despite quoted evidence from LL, a number of polls to the contrary that SL is "only a game" and anyone that disagrees with you must be wrong. Assuming your opinion is superior to everyone else's is often human nature, but the epitome of subjectivity.

You're entitled, naturally and completely to your opinion. But just because it's your opinion doesn't make it fact, not does it mean that everyone that disagrees with you is stupid, blinkered or wrong - they're entitled to their opinions too.

SL to you is pure entertainment? Good for you. It's not to me. Neither it is a real life income - I basically break even in SL on my tier and fees. If I worked harder in SL it's possible it could be a RL income, but I like relaxing, spending time with friends and my partner too - it's much, much closer to a second life (fancy that!) than either of the poles you're trying to describe - but then Aristotlean dichotomies rarely work well in any analysis of human behaviour.

Since you can't ever take the teacher out of me, let me suggest a little homework to you. Find a copy of Hamlet, look up the gravediggers scene. Hamlet's comment to Horatio might be worth a thought or two.

I am sorry but it is not the same. Lindens are play money for a game. I understand that they have no value outside of the game.

Anshe Sanma wants to make a new curency for the buying and selling of general goods, I do not think that is legal. My accountant self would want to know who is going to monitor this and who is going to do the aduits on her books? The fact that she is located in Europe does not help things with me. If she makes a lot of Anshe dollars and they become worthless it would be next to impossible for a resident outside of Europe to seek relief from the courts! It would just be too expensive to make any sort of sense.

I am very sorry but I refuse to accept her A$ for payment. Linden labs is located within the United States as well as myself, I will only accept payment in American Dollars or Japanese Yen. For payments within Second Life, I accept payment in Lindens that are directly done by the program. If a store only deals in A$ they will have to do without me as a customer.

For all those looking at SL for an income...

A question I have is when is LL going to start issuing the proper IRS forms for income generated here? I would assume that every transaction from L$ to US$ should be considered income and noted as such on your annual income tax (I'm sure all of you making a decent buck off this platform are duly reporting your income?).

paul: you keep your play money in your pocket then and I'll keep mine in mine.

My conversion rates are 100 times the price for A$ or GL$ -and I get my lindens or US dollars before I send the item.

Don't like those terms? Want everyone to trade equally? Wish in one hand...

I object because the linden dollars are established. Yours are run through you- not a company I have has dealing with. I object because I trust you less than LL. Same for Anshe.

If you can't see why people would object..then I see you as blind and trust you even less than I did before.

I agree with Jonas, saying that a "curency" is backed by Euro silver, gold or Chocolate is not proving anything. I could come up with the Ranma Dollar and say it is backed by the rabbit in the moon! I am so very sorry have no trust in the A$ or GL$.

Ranma, we are not that far apart on this issue but the point you make in the above quote is only partially true in my own opinion.

Linden Labs Markets Second Life as a platform and makes great reference to the possible economic benefits that could be gained by participating.

But the tool that is offered is a virtual currency that by the TOS is defined as worthless.

People are buying this currency with real money to purchase goods and services potentially both in and out of world. That in my opinion is a legal disaster waiting to happen.

To make max use of the great technology that is powering this platform needs a currency with a fungible value, not an artificial so called Linden Dollar which can be inflated out of all control by a company that can issue Lindens at will without legal control. That could be considered to be a Ponzi scheme

Therefore the concept of a Gold Linden fully supported by an exchange traded fund quoted on both the London and New York Stock exchange (run via a separate limited company subject to US/UK law OR/AND the use of real Dollars/Pounds/Euro/Yen in game would completely remove these uncertainties without impacting on those people who simply want to socialise and move around as an entertainment.

However it will directly aid all who provide content or own land.

Plus it will enable really exciting possibilities in terms of providing the sale of real life goods and services.

I am honestly not trying to spoil anybody’s enjoyment of Second Life, be it game/platform/business, just add or enhance it.

OMG! I can't see Linden Labs issuing 1099's for every sale on LindenX!

But it does raise a very interesting point. I wonder if the IRS, or LL for that matter, is looking at this? If the rumors of the income being generated by some are true, it's only a matter of time.

They would have to take in account the amount of money paid into the game. I cring at the thought of doing a balance sheet on me! They would tell me it is a hobby and I cant take it as a loss on my taxes!

I don't belive it's LL's responsibility to report our income, and we don't fall under the rules of contract labor.

I'm sure we can safely keep the tax issue between the individual and thier government.

3) RL people can't say "give me a TP".
4) RL people can't just rez up a cool club in a sandbox.
5) RL people pay L$100 per minute for "voice IMs".
6) RL people can't look for clumps of green dots.

If we had teleport booths and nanotech replicators in RL, what would clubs look like? Larry Niven wrote a whole series of stories about the impact of teleportation on society, and some of the things he came up with are just everyday you-don't-even-notice-them in SL.

Clubs were places you went to to get away from it all, you'd find a branch of "your club" in any city, it would have the same decor, a lot of the same staff on rotation, and if you needed to get away from someone you could at least change clubs because it just wasn't DONE to follow people from club to club. That was the motive for a murder in one story, and even the investigating detective completely understood it.

But for fun, to meet people, when you heard about something on the news you'd just GO there. You'd get a "flash crowd". You've seen that happen in SL, surely?

But what about the varying levels of income being generated here? At some point isn't it LL's responsibility to be reporting it? Technically, aren't we all contractors to LL in creating content?

Am I just an undocumented nanny?

Any currency you can use to buy stuff in SL is only backed by the ability to have fun in SL. It'll be no more or less attractive than the Linden, and more of a hassle to use. But, knock yourself out. It won't hurt me to see you try.

So long as it remains play money, Linden Labs has no responsiblity to report anything. That's the same reason gambling laws and prostitution laws don't apply here.

If for some reason LL went to a US$ format, they would more likely end up like E-Bay. A provider of a venue for people to get together and buy/sell stuff.

However, those who DO sell their "play money" and profit from it are required "by law" to report it as income.

Yes - subject to the laws of their own country. Not every country has an income tax. And, you only have to pay taxes on your profit. In the US you can deduct part of your ISP bill (or all of it if you only use it for work); part of your hardware expenses; all of any software you buy just for SL; you may even be able to deduct part of your rent or mortgage based on a "home office."

Linden Labs however has no requirement to report anything. At best, they might be liable for a sales tax on $L sold. Considering how murky internet sales tax is on the Federal level, I doubt LL will be impacted anytime soon.

I totally accept that "Trust" is a major requirement of any currency. And when I suggested the concept of the Gold Linden I did say that I alone would not have the time to run such an enterprise althoulth I might consider investing in it if properly set up

But what I am saying is that in the absence of any common sense from Governor Linden, a grouping of major users within world could come together and jointly launch such a scheme. After all financial business is not new to Second Life.

Or force Second Life to do it by legal collective action,....looking at the way land prices are both falling and not appearing to sell plus the increasing abandoning of land by previous property owners tells me something is not right.

I disprove your theory then. I am both a landowner and content provider, and your gold lindens will give me only more of a headache. Go talk to the economy troll or something..

edit: this is Jonas Piertersonon my secondary computer, signingoff my fiances account to post further

sorry sorry I do not have trust in play money, Lindens are excempt for game payments but I dont keep a high balance even so

I wouldsaymy personal view is I trustthelindendollar as play moneyand don't take it outof the game.