Capitalists Everywhere Support Philip Linden's Dwell Decision
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Eloise Pasteur
Curious Individual
Join date: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,952
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04-20-2006 03:23
From: Siobhan Taylor Dwell was not always with us. It was a replacement system to measure popularity based on how attractive your build was. It was gamed. It was put in place to replace the system of voting boothes where people would vote for a good build... Guess what, that was gamed too. Agreed. From: someone Dwell isn't needed. Broadly agreed. From: someone The only people who ever benefitted from it were large landowners who already had money. (If you claim not to have money, then why the hell are you paying for a sim each month?) Disagree - it's the middle sized people it helps. Last month I made about L$75k. Dwell wasn't a huge proportion of that, but was still a nice healthy 5k or so. When it goes it won't necessitate a change, but it will affect my willingness to randomly splurge money around just a little - it's pin money to me. I believe *all* of the big landowners, the huge ones anyway, use the group thing for their extra 10% - their dwell gets split around thanks to that so it doesn't scale up that well. Most of my dwell (75%+) comes as dwell, not group dividend, from land I own directly and personally. But even if they get 5k/sim/month that's what - US$15 or so, only $180 to make to cover the tier. If they're really marginal it might make a difference, but if they're *that* marginal, they'll be dying on their feet for other reasons anyway soon enough. This isn't a plea to save dwell though - just pointing out that I rather strongly suspect the people it will affect most directly are the middle sized land owners, half a sim to two sims territory. From: someone It's the opposite end of the spectrum from stipends, which in my opinion, are necessary, at least for some at the lower end of the wealth scale. I'd agree that stipends are still necessary - more residents ought to lead to more total money to flow around the system. From: someone Anyway, I support the decision to end it too, and if I hear anyone call me a capitalist, I'm going to come over there and slap you around with Kendra's shoe ... (cos I can't afford one of my own) lol. My initial worry, that it was too little too late is by and large removed by analysing data - it seems unlikely it will have any significant effect on the metric that seems to matter to most, but if it kills camping chairs (which it might do) and removes a small bit of gaming from the system, go for it! |
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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04-20-2006 03:34
From: IC Fetid Am I the only one who finds every post the OP posts as highly amusing? I've often said that Jaime is an intentional parody. I don't get why more people don't get it. I'd find her very amusing if she wasn't a theif.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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04-20-2006 03:35
From: Lewis Nerd You can kiss goodbye to a lot of 'non profit' places.
You can kiss goodbye to a lot of game areas and clubs that were dependent on traffic to survive.
You can kiss goodbye to people doing stuff just for fun. Nah.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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04-20-2006 04:30
You will see a lot of rewritten business plans in the next few weeks, and a lot of donation jars. I do think that people will make do with smaller lots, however.
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--Obvious Lady
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Ade Franklin
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 8
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04-20-2006 04:50
I am currently building a theme park / arcade.. most of the rides are 100% free with a donation box next to them. i decided on free rides so that new people in SL can enjoy the rides as well as existing and long term memebers. I have to admit i use the dwell at the moment to add new rides.
When Dwell goes i guess it will be harder for me to improve my park without buying more lindens to improve the site. I always intended this park to be a non-profit organization with all money in donations and dwell going into improving the site.
The park has been open for 3 weeks now, and quite a few people have visited, in total the dontation boxes have taken 1 linden.
I hope with dwell going i dont have to start charging on more of the rides or a site entrance fee to help offset the cost. I just feel in the long term those with greatest of intentions could end up closing there attractions.
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Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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04-20-2006 04:52
I have said before that Second Life needs a currency you can trust not to inflate out of all value, and the introduction of selling first life goods and services.
Achieve that and you will have another EBay. One in 3 dimensions.
Without it, well paying real dollars via the Linden Dollar for Second Life goods and services has limited value and as people mature in this game that spend will decline.
Which will impact on almost everybody who hopes to make money in Second Life via a business of some kind
Which could mean Second Life's ability to generate first life money will become only a passing phase or temporary phenomena in the time span of Second Life for the vast majority of participants
Which will impact financially on Linden Labs as people will either leave or tier down to basic
Which could mean a very cut down version of Second Life.....a few private islands and a few themed or game type Sims. That’s it.
So really I believe we need either to spend via US dollars directly in game OR via type of Gold Linden with real fungible value as I have mentioned before. Plus of course the software to interact with the outside Internet (which we have to a degree at present)
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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04-20-2006 05:12
ZOMG they're doing what with our taxes?!? ...er, I mean, ZOMG they're doing what with our telehubs?!? ...no, not that either, I mean... ZOMG our Dwell! ... Aw hell, nevermind.  |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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04-20-2006 05:58
The current linden dollars are fine..we don't need gold lindens or spending real USD.
I don't care about making a rl business profit- let the game be a game.
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Good freebies here and here I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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bye bye to the Golden Linden
04-20-2006 07:06
The demise of dwell will not impact my game play. I own a small plot of land in the new area. I still have not worn all of the clothing in my inventory. Vehiciles are next to worthless in SL. Between Security scripts, problems crossing sim lines and the fact that they stink are all factors. I have started playing with my FS9 for flying. Houses are available for free. What do I HAVE to spends lindens on? I refuse to buy any more for real money.
There are a lot of residents like me to which the Linden is only a tool and nothing more. Unlike RL I have no Linden expenses a month to worry about and only a $8 a month tier payment. I spend more money on tolls for my car a month.
As I go through SL I see empty malls by the dozen. Some of these have shops and some of them no shops. There seems to be more merchants than shoppers.
I predict that the Linden will start to lose its importance in the game. As new people discover that it cost real money to buy things. Objects that never grace your hard disk and are useful only in second life the demand for Lindens will drop and the value as well. There is going to be a short spike in demand but that should pass quickly. In the end only those that like to play SL will remain, oh the big landlords will still be with us. The others will be gone..........
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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04-20-2006 07:42
Hmmm. I guess some of these predictions might pan out.
I myself have worried that eventually we will pretty much get most of the new players and then they will get older and stop buying things.
Meanwhile, it just strikes me as awfully sad that someone would have to consider charging for amusement park rides.
I just really don't think this idea that everybody is going to pay for entertainment is going to work.
coco
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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04-20-2006 07:45
I stand by my prediction of a drought of event goers to paid events and more gaming areas...
Of course, the owner would take a 5% rake..(which really -isn't- bad)
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Good freebies here and here I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
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Nexus Nash
Undercover Linden
Join date: 18 Dec 2002
Posts: 1,084
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04-20-2006 07:53
From: Cocoanut Koala I just really don't think this idea that everybody is going to pay for entertainment is going to work. Ha, bang on the money! Skip the theather, or skip out on movie rentals for 1 week and use those 10$ to buy some L$. Entertainment is entertainment. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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04-20-2006 08:19
Well, we'll see if it works.
haha I just got a notion:
It will work, and the same people will PAY to go to the clubs and other looked-down-upon things, and the "quality" events (minus a couple that are really good) nobody will go to.
Thinking about it a bit more, seems to me that the things that are MOST likely to suffer (and have suffered in the past) are the big amusement areas. Things you pay for you usually do cause bunches of people are already there, so you think it must be good.
Which would bode well for the clubs, and for, maybe, the Shelter. But in order to get someone to pay to go into, say, Spittooney Island - well, bunches of people were never there, just due to the nature of the game. It wasn't a club, and only a few people would be visiting Spitooney at a time, usually. Or say, Backstage.
So people would get at the gate - look at the entry fee, see nobody much there, and think, well, this isn't worth it.
Just thinking aloud here.
coco
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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04-20-2006 08:21
From: Ranma Tardis I predict that the Linden will start to lose its importance in the game. As new people discover that it cost real money to buy things. Objects that never grace your hard disk and are useful only in second life the demand for Lindens will drop and the value as well. I think you misunderstand the general consumerist nature of SL. It's not about being able to save it to your hard drive, it's not about it being useful outside of second life. It's more about psychology, I guess. In RL, we've had a consumerism sold to us a means to happiness and satisfaction since the end of the second world war. Hell, even the concept of 'teenager' developed around this time, to facilate the creation of a new consumer market (before that you were a kid then you were an adult). Marketing and advertising are usually pitching a dream when it's all said and done. They're always tring to find a new way for us to desire something we don't need at all. In SL, you can achieve this 'happiness' and 'satisfaction' for a whole lot less. How many of us really get to shop once a week RL? How many of us have our own planes? How many of us have villas on waterfront land? In SL, you can live whatever dream you wish for a fraction of the RL price. Consumerism has never been need-driven. It's desire-driven, impulse-driven, and status-driven. Corporations spend a fortune trying to crack the 'luxury code', so they can tap into this. Think about how often advertising has nothing to do with the products function, think about how often you never even see the product in an ad. The best example I can think of off the top of my head, is the kind of cigarette ads they used to run in print before they banned cigarette advertising it. A noxious product, but the ads were filled with sandy beaches, gleaming pools, boats, fancy cars, the suggestion of a beautiful woman, wealth... Consuming has little to do with reason or function. Shopping in SL is here to stay. |
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Maximillion Grant
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 172
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04-20-2006 08:37
From: Fade Languish I think you misunderstand the general consumerist nature of SL. It's not about being able to save it to your hard drive, it's not about it being useful outside of second life. It's more about psychology, I guess. In RL, we've had a consumerism sold to us a means to happiness and satisfaction since the end of the second world war. Hell, even the concept of 'teenager' developed around this time, to facilate the creation of a new consumer market (before that you were a kid then you were an adult). Marketing and advertising are usually pitching a dream when it's all said and done. They're always tring to find a new way for us to desire something we don't need at all.
In SL, you can achieve this 'happiness' and 'satisfaction' for a whole lot less. How many of us really get to shop once a week RL? How many of us have our own planes? How many of us have villas on waterfront land? In SL, you can live whatever dream you wish for a fraction of the RL price. Consumerism has never been need-driven. It's desire-driven, impulse-driven, and status-driven.
Corporations spend a fortune trying to crack the 'luxury code', so they can tap into this. Think about how often advertising has nothing to do with the products function, think about how often you never even see the product in an ad. The best example I can think of off the top of my head, is the kind of cigarette ads they used to run in print before they banned cigarette advertising it. A noxious product, but the ads were filled with sandy beaches, gleaming pools, boats, fancy cars, the suggestion of a beautiful woman, wealth...
Consuming has little to do with reason or function. Shopping in SL is here to stay. You hit the nail right on the head. Many people have said, why would anyone pay to go to a club in SL when they can dance with their friends at home for free? Well you can do that in RL and still people go out dancing to clubs, spending all that time getting dressed up, paying for parking and spending $5 per drink when you could buy it in the store much cheaper. You're forgetting the reason people go to clubs in RL. 1) To meet people 2) To be seen People will still go to popular clubs for those 2 reasons alone. You don't spend $200 on a new dress to dance at home, you spend it so the next time you go a club everyone can admire you and your new dress. Generalizations aside (as I realize this doesn't apply to everyone) this holds true for many people whether they admit it or not. People spend time in SL for a variety of reason, building, creating, consuming etc....but the whole point of this is to let you live your fantasies. I can't design the building of my dreams in RL, but I can sure do it here and that's not changing  |
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Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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04-20-2006 08:38
From: Jonas Pierterson The current linden dollars are fine..we don't need gold lindens or spending real USD.
I don't care about making a rl business profit- let the game be a game. If it (Second Life) was a game I would agree with you. But it is not, it is a platform. See Governor Lindens statement on this if you doubt me. As a platform you need to have trade and profit to be viable So with respect I believe you are misguided |
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Jamie Bergman
SL's Largest Distributor
Join date: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,752
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04-20-2006 08:46
I am not a crook.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-20-2006 08:54
From: Fade Languish I think you misunderstand the general consumerist nature of SL. It's not about being able to save it to your hard drive, it's not about it being useful outside of second life. It's more about psychology, I guess. In RL, we've had a consumerism sold to us a means to happiness and satisfaction since the end of the second world war. Hell, even the concept of 'teenager' developed around this time, to facilate the creation of a new consumer market (before that you were a kid then you were an adult). Marketing and advertising are usually pitching a dream when it's all said and done. They're always tring to find a new way for us to desire something we don't need at all.
In SL, you can achieve this 'happiness' and 'satisfaction' for a whole lot less. How many of us really get to shop once a week RL? How many of us have our own planes? How many of us have villas on waterfront land? In SL, you can live whatever dream you wish for a fraction of the RL price. Consumerism has never been need-driven. It's desire-driven, impulse-driven, and status-driven.
Corporations spend a fortune trying to crack the 'luxury code', so they can tap into this. Think about how often advertising has nothing to do with the products function, think about how often you never even see the product in an ad. The best example I can think of off the top of my head, is the kind of cigarette ads they used to run in print before they banned cigarette advertising it. A noxious product, but the ads were filled with sandy beaches, gleaming pools, boats, fancy cars, the suggestion of a beautiful woman, wealth...
Consuming has little to do with reason or function. Shopping in SL is here to stay. What I am saying that all of these things are NOTHING without second life. Also they are really rather shallow copies at that. You can "own" ocean front property but not all of the things that make it worthwhile. There is no feel of the wind in your face, you cant smell the ocean. You can not go swimming or feel the sand on your feet. A real ocean front lot is not dependant on Second Life being operating, a active internet connection and a active computer. What you get is a 2d image of a cartoon ocean, etc. The things I buy in Real Life have purpose and value. The clothing I wear not only keeps me from being arrested but protects be against the elements as well, ie sun, wind, rain, hot and cold. The food I buy provides nurishment to my body. You talk about expensive cars, boats and planes but in SL they are a rather shadow of their RL counterparts. Driving a SL car is a bother at best, not worth doing at worse. My RL car carries me from my RL house to my RL workplace to my RL stores. It is fun to drive! Also there are no security scripts to give me trouble. You know where it is proper to drive. Second Life is at best a cartoon version of real life. You need your imagination to due most of the work to make it enjoyable. I used second life as a "stage" when "talking" to people. The objects are in the program for show and have only limited purpose in the scheme of things. |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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04-20-2006 08:55
With respect I believe you are misguided. I personally do not care if a linden says its a game or a platform - after all they also said all the old bugs would be fixed by 1.9 and that we would have havok2...So really, that opinion of theirs is only that, an opinion.
If Second life was NOT a game I might agree with your points on the economy, but the fact remains, for me and a large portion of the players, it -is- a game. You, of course are free to use it as a platform, or underpar CAD system if you want, but I'll keep playing my game. SL is different to everyone, and it is only what you make of it as an individual.
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Good freebies here and here I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
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Aleister DaSilva
insert witty phrase here
Join date: 19 May 2005
Posts: 168
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04-20-2006 08:56
From: Jamie Bergman I am not a crook. Ehh neither was Nixon |
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Vivianne Draper
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,157
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04-20-2006 09:02
I agree Coco. I think strip clubs, *ingo parks and gambling casinos will do very well. I think they will be able to charge an entrance fee and that people will pay. I think live music venues might work well for-pay. I dunno. The musicians charge a lot -- their fee will be hard to make up in door tickets. Some builds might be able to charge.. but I kinda doubt it. Forget other kinds of content. Not gonna be able to charge. From: Cocoanut Koala Well, we'll see if it works.
haha I just got a notion:
It will work, and the same people will PAY to go to the clubs and other looked-down-upon things, and the "quality" events (minus a couple that are really good) nobody will go to.
Thinking about it a bit more, seems to me that the things that are MOST likely to suffer (and have suffered in the past) are the big amusement areas. Things you pay for you usually do cause bunches of people are already there, so you think it must be good.
Which would bode well for the clubs, and for, maybe, the Shelter. But in order to get someone to pay to go into, say, Spittooney Island - well, bunches of people were never there, just due to the nature of the game. It wasn't a club, and only a few people would be visiting Spitooney at a time, usually. Or say, Backstage.
So people would get at the gate - look at the entry fee, see nobody much there, and think, well, this isn't worth it.
Just thinking aloud here.
coco |
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-20-2006 09:45
Strip clubs in SL are not really strip clubs. They are a lets look at a cartoon characters get unclothed. One second the avatar has a article of clothing on and the next it does not. It is my understand that the act of undressing gets men excited. It is as the hand grasps the article of clothing to slowly reveal what is underneath. There is the tension of the monment. This does not happen is SL. Also there are different ways to remove clothing. Some of them are more exciting that others. The fact that clothing can only be removed by the resident in question. Hmmm, I wonder if clothing can be made as an object. Then could it be made as to be torn off either by the wearing resident or another resident? I could make some serious Lindens if only there was talnet in me |
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Vivianne Draper
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,157
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04-20-2006 09:46
i'm not exactly understanding your point. are you unaware of the many popular strip clubs in sl?
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dana Archer
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2005
Posts: 8
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thoughts on SL and the Econmy and Capitalists and who benefits from what
04-20-2006 10:00
THe changes being made are not just random reactions to a heated economy or a sliding exchange rate. These are longer term plans, well thought out and what it will end up being about is moving from LL supplying the currency to ensuring we Slers buy Lindens with US$ to supplement any in SL currency that LL deems fit to leave us with per week. That will be the net result.
Consequences:
PPL who will be left on SL will be the ppl who contribute to SL as a community and are prepared to fund this.
The only "reward" besides being in a great environment with great people, will be to those who can make Lindens in order to sell them on the exchange
Parasites who contribute little and take everything will leave.
the economy can take a nose dive and inflation shoot sky high
the buyer will be very discerning and expect only quality
support will be given to those who provide people friendly environments, who are inclusive rather than exclusive, who fulfill the needs of those on SL whatever that may be.
If another ONline World opens up that offers much more valuse for less US$ cost then you may see a lot of ppl leave. Where the ppl no longer perceive any value in spending time in an online world they leave and go elsewhere
And many more unforseeable ones too both good and bad. Only time will tell whether these changes are good or bad - because we all vote with our feet
dana
Here's to SL as long as it lives
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-20-2006 10:02
From: Vivianne Draper i'm not exactly understanding your point. are you unaware of the many popular strip clubs in sl? True but it goes like this in Second Life. The female model is on the stage. The bra and panties are still in place. Next thing you see is the bra not in place. In a real life strip club the model would move slowly to grasp the bra with one of more hands. She would move it ever so slowly and in a teasing way to reveal the flesh underneath. There are a million different ways for her to remove and discard ther bra. In SL it is either on or off. There is no inbetween and there is no skill required to do such, just a click of the mouse on a menu. I am saying that "strip" clubs in SL are that only in name. The technology to make real type removable clothing is still years away. It has to do with the fact that avatars dont really interact with each other or objects. The best that could be done is some sort of scripted object as clothing. |
