Whats your opinion on the removal of dwell?

Well, as one of the performers, I think I can at least partly address what you're hearing, and I would say that in general things are improving on the music scene, it's really been heating up in SL lately, but I do have a fear that it may have trouble weathering this latest blow. I will say, that I've been tempted to blurt out a couple times when people have been saying that you either need to be a business owner or an escort, that providing live entertainment of other types (than the escorts) is another decent way to make at least a few lindens in the game, but you need to come in w/ some skills (like builders/scripters/clothiers) and the reason you (usually) aren't seeing bands, is that to make even a reasonable wage (which is not really on order w/ what could be made IRL) for a performer (the cost of which has usually been carried by the venue owner) the performance fee is usually at least a couple thousand L$ (depending on many factors) and if you add more live performers into the mix it can get quite expensive quickly, not to mention the technical and logistic problems of getting a whole band streaming into the world. The biggest problem (with or w/o dwell/DI) is that the current SL platform really makes it tough to have an audience that can really pay for a single's time - even on a 4 sim boundary you could only get a max of about 160~200 people there (and most streaming servers couldn't take that load without being very expensive) anyway, even on a private sim you're talking about usually getting a max of about 50 av's into the space (including staff and the performer themselves) so, economically, it's hard to justify the expense of a combo, so solos and duos are the most common. When you're doing a solo act, it's kind of hard not to do it w/ either guitar or keyboard if you want to be "totally" live. I tend to do a mix using the tried and true guitar/voice solo routine, but also most of my original material, I do in a more fully realized format with a full arrangement that I've recorded earlier and do the vocals live along with. Anyway, there's more than just a few of us out doing it now, so I believe the field is opening up quite a bit. Hopefully soon more of the "basses" will be covered - but it does take people willing to go to quite a bit of effort to do a show.

Communist paradise.

There's nothing in SL for capitalists to get a grip on, which is why ReserveBank Division is railing about stocks and bonds and things. Capitalism depends on capital having value, on there being actual physical stuff that you can make that is directly usable to make more stuff.

In SL, the workers control the means of production. There's maybe a dozen scripted objects that you can buy that will help make you a bit more efficient for some kinds of work... like the particle toolkits, ringmakers, and things... but they're none of them expensive and any worker can afford them. All you need to go into business in SL is maybe a thousand prims worth of land. The closest thing to a capital good is land, and the tier is so high that you can't really accumulate it and it's even hard to improve it enough to sell it at a profit.

So... from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs, and everything... simply everything... in Second Life is luxury goods. Nobody suffers from going broke, there's no real incentive to work your butt off except that you like to work your butt off. If you don't want to, you don't have to, and nobody will even know to look at you whether you're a Patrician or a Plebian.

The whole Linden Economy is really a sideshow. It's part of the game... it doesn't actually matter unless you choose to make it matter and if you do then you'll still never fall into any kind of in-game poverty as a result.

Seriously, it's a worker's paradise. It's a communist utopia. And it always will be... no matter what the people playing the economy game want.
Except that in general it's the content that they were paying dwell on that was the content that was actually generating cash. Because the places that people hang out at are the places that contain the reasons they're in SL at all.
Janitor Linden.

And your point is?

ooo, I kinda like this. Mind if I put it in my sig for a while?

++

It is a change for the BETTER.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm pointing out that people wishing all the clones would go away - there would have to be a smaller population for that. I wasn't aware that that observation constituted "drama".

Maybe they will have a wider selection of types of clubs. That would, of course, be a good thing, for those who go to clubs.

coco

Imagine yourself a new player. Thinking of how to get L$ so you can actually DO something here. We all had money chairs. Kiss them goodbye. We all got stipends. There is a proposal afoot to kiss them goodbye.

So Mr/Ms Newbie player has little left but to gamble (with what, pray tell?) and HOPE they win once in a rare while, or wander aimlessly, or spend RL$. Now many might just hang around Ahern or Waterhead and chat. That may satisfy many urges. But truthfully, most players I know are here came here initially because it was free. Personally, I never imagined paying a monthly fee to do this. But here I am. And it never would have happened if I had not had the opportunity to spend time as a newbie, collecting that tiny L$50 a week stipend. And pretty much every player I know is in the same boat.

Thing is, in order to SPEND L$, you have to have ways of GETTING L$. And for the newbie, those ways are severely limited. And with the loss of dwell, they will be even more severely limited. The result will be many will become discouraged and leave. And that is not going to help your precious L$ exchange rate because the "economy" will stagnate. For many people, this will become nothing more than Internet Relay Chat with pictures.

The real damage I think that has been done here, has been done by those that turned it into a RL money machine. They've driven land prices into the stratosphere, and from what I've read in other threads, have a strange interest in keeping your L$ values low. This is supposed to be a GAME! Get it? G-A-M-E! For fun (thats F-U-N).

Sorry folks, but eliminating dwell was simply the wrong answer. And eliminating stipends will simply drive "consumers" away from the game. And simply put, without consumers, there is no point of having "producers" since there is no one to consume the product.

Now, I CAN see "term limiting" newbie players. At some point, they should start paying SOME kind of toll. Here are some ways of doing that (I'm brainstorming so before you flame, remember the rules of brainstorming...all ideas on the table):

1. Require an upgrade after a period of time, say six to eight weeks.
OR
2. Require occasional purchases of L$ from LindenX after a certain amount of time as a member (again, six to eight weeks). Might not add to LL's bottom line, but it will move currency and increase the demand for it. And that stimulates the economy.
3. Community service for stipends (aka "workfare", again after a desginated period of basic membership.

Bottom line is, I think this will hurt in the long haul.

First, there is no proposal afoot to eliminate stipends. There is the suggestion that they are no longer nessesary to drive the economy, but that is quite a different thing.

Second, what is the resistance to buying a few L$ now and again? The point behind doing that is to reward content creators for thier work. Like you reward movie makers by paying for your ticket. Or reward the author and publisher when you pay for a book.

I thought your suggestions on subsidizing new players are good, but I want to respond to the above.

Many people use their First Life to support their Second Life. A few use their Second Life to support their First Life. Then there are lots of people who do a bit of both. Considering how cheap $L are, why is there such a resistance from some players to buy a few, especially those people who are on free accounts?

What I don't understand is why anyone expects Second Life to be $free and work-free. Is it an attitude of entitlement? Is it LL's marketing? Is it an age/culture related thing? This is not a troll, i'm really trying to figure this out.

Very little in real life is $free and work-free once you move out of your parents. Some things people think are free are paid for by the government (taxes) or donations (other people's work and $).

So where does this expectation come from.
Since Linden Labs needs to pay their bills, how could they overcome this attitude?
Or is it a case where folks who feel like that will just wander off.

Thoughts?

The something-for-nothing mentality is really the cause for this resistance. Remember, other than a connection fee, most of the internet has been free to end users since it's inception. That is changing...but it has a ways to go.

Personally I've spent almost $150 in purchases of L$ in the last couple months on top of tier fees and membership.

You'll never get an answer to this.

Lord knows I've tried.

The sense of self-entitlement by many on these forums is mind boggling.

I mean, they cry bloody murder about giving up a fifteen cent stipend, even though they are playing for free and paying nothing to get it.

I've given up trying to understand it.

Not elimination perhaps (yet). But definitely on the table.

Just a few random thoughts on the subject from a new voice... By the way, this is my first post here in the forums - this topic seems worthy!

I don't know how typical I am of the "usual" SL user, but I can speak to what motivates me, and what I have observed:

I've been inworld for less than two months at this point, but already I recognise the dual role SL has created, both for fun and for profit depending on the user. I converted from a free basic account to a premium account after about 2 days, seeing the potential for a greater experience. I converted from a monthly to an annual rate quickly after that because I expect to be a participant, perhaps an idle one, for a long while, and there seemed no point in spending more that necessary. And I just as quickly bought more land than I think I need at this point, so I am selling a 512 sm parcel to drop my tier back down to $8/month - after all, this is still a game, and there is no point in spending too much just yet. I have bought L$ several times already, and quickly spent them, on land, clothes, avatars, animations, furniture, some gambling and a myriad of other miscellaneous "junk", and so feel I have effectively contributed to the SL economy!

I spend time during regular RL working hours camping in various casinos, because they are there. I can set SL in the background, occassional move the mouse or type in a pass phrase, and when I stand up, I get "free" Lindens. It amounts to less than a dollar a day in real $, but it feels like so much more! I recognize the camping chairs are there to a) generate traffic to that location, and b) keep me there to perhaps try my luck at the games, which I have learned I usually lose at, and so generally no longer play (that L$11,000 jackpot is certainly tempting, even though I don't honestly expect to win it!). If these camping chairs were not there, I would not be spending time during the day in SL - there would be no point in doing so, because my time during the day is spent on real world activities, my job! My time in SL is necessarily idle. It seems others share that experience - rarely do I find, let alone engage in, converstions while camping. We are zombies, frequently (away) or (busy).

Without the dwell incentive, the casino operator or club owner (I'm singling these out because that is where I tend to find most of the camping chairs) has less incentive to operate camping chairs - eliminating DI eliminates the subsidy of camping payouts. Without camping chairs, I have no incentive to go inworld during the day, because I don't have time to interact and still do my real world job.

I spend many hours outside of working hours in SL, and none of that time is spent camping. I explore, meet people, build, chat, IM, shop, learn, and develop my understanding of SL. It is during this time that I contribute to the SL experience, by interacting. This is also when I buy stuff.

There is so much free, or almost free (@ 1L$), stuff out there that I could have an amazing time with everything I have lost in my inventory. I am facinated by all the new, unique, and upscale stuff, though, and I buy more, because I can't get that stuff, the unique stuff, without compensating the creator for them. The items I choose to buy I do so to express myself - I now recognize for instance others wearing many of the clothes that are available for free, and I want to present myself in a way that is unique. I have spoken with many inworld who do not share that opinion, and are very happy with what they find for free. That's fine!

I know that if I wanted to "make a living" in SL, as several articles contend is possible, I need to sell something, or solicit donations. Clothes, land, toys, scripts, animations, furniture, you name it - I need to create it, buy it, host it, support it, whatever - in order to sell it to people just like me who take real world $ and convert it to entertainment. I need to master the tools in the game to make that happen, and I'll learn to master them by playing the game. I'll need to master tools outside of the game, and I'll do that by
creating something for the game. That also creates another set of free-to-all versus pay-a-premium question: Is Adobe Photoshop better than GIMP? How about Poser compared to Avimator? Paid versus free? It all depends on your own judgements.

My bottom line L$0.02:
During the time I spend in circumstances meant to utilize the dwell incentive (ie camping chairs), I am largely "disconnected". While discontinuing the dwell incentive ultimately eliminates my reason for being in the game during those hours, that is time that I am generally disengaged anyway, and so it could be argued that I am not really there. For the long term health of SL, it seems appropriate to encourage those activities which foster engagement rather that simply encouraging people to be online. It is then that the truly intriguing places and events can be known.

Doeuvre that was a very thoughtful and rather wise first post.

I'm getting a $6 stipend and paying $10 a month for it, and I'm still in favor of Basic stipends... even if only your first character got it and your alts got nothing so I wouldn't be getting any from my alt.

There. ZERO personal benefit for me from Basic stipends, and I'm still in favor of them.

And I've explained why lots of times.

And your point is well noted.

Now, like I was saying ...

... they cry bloody murder about giving up a fifteen cent stipend, even though they are playing for free and paying nothing to get it.

Ultimately I think its a bad Idea.

I don't think I could agree with you more.... and welcome to the Forums.


Lemme try a new analogy:

You receive a coupon book which gives you a 15 cent discount every week.
The merchant says you need to pay $9.95(once) before he'll show you what he sells.
How many customers will throw the coupon book in his face and walk away?

Customers aren't used to paying at the door... and merchants don't want anything reducing their numbers of potential customers.

Merchants pay more so that customers can come in for free. (one of the ways merchants pay more for their profits is by getting a smaller return when they sell their L$ revenue for US$)

Of course, there are non-merchant 'sponsors' that elect to pay more, as well.

Whether it's a mall, a housing development, art gallery, museum or whatever, sometimes it's worthwhile to open the doors to the public and give them a little bribe/free sample to get them to try something out of the ordinary. (which SecondLife certainly is).

The obvious counter point: Then basic stipends should be probationary, not on-going!

Sure, but then that encourages people to create a new avatars when the probation ends, and the annoyance may be sufficient to drive them away. The point is to get them intrigued... then interested... then invested. Anything that makes avatars more 'disposable' than they already are will just make it just that much easier for people to walk away.

Does SL need to 'bribe' people to get them in the first time? Or to get them to come back again and again? ... If SL depends on growth (which I believe it does) then yes, so long as the cost of bringing more people in doesn't exceed the benefits of population growth.

Anyway... that's my take on why basic stipends are necessary and beneficial. They're not without problems... but I think marketing benefits from basic stipends outweighs the cost. For the moment at least.

Jopsy, with all due respect, why don't you try this ...

...try stopping being an enabler.

We are all adults in Second Life. To assert that we need to hold these adult's hands by providing them with fifteen cents a week to spend in-world, despite the fact that they're already playing for free as it is, is pathetically insulting.

All LL needs to do is offer free membership as they have been doing with a disclaimer that new residents don't need linden to enjoy Second Life. They can build, socialize, explore, seek the myriad of freebies available in-world without having to spend a single linden.

However...

If as a new resident, you are interested in purchasing linden you can purchase said linden at the LindeX website for the very reasonable price of $L300 Linden per $1.00 USD. At this rate $5.00 USD would net you $L1,500 worth of linden to spend as you wish.

Welcome to Second Life

That is all that needs be said.

Free yourself yourself from this absurd socialist mindset that is currently debilitating your brain.

The dwell and the traffic system has/had several problems.

1. You got more $L per traffic as your traffic went up. This meant that a small place could not compete with larger camping sites.

2. The campers did not have to do anything to make traffic and dwell.
I at least tried to script it so my campers had to do stuff, Unfortantly it did not work all the time since some have screen reader software and can program there computer to do actions including responding to dialogs and questions.

The traffic system is like paying search engines to have your link come up first even when it's not the best match.

Since Jan1 my site payed out over $170,000L above any DI and dwell.

My business plan incorporated dwell and DI. However, since my entire plan was misconceived, removing them will have very little effect since in the end my site will have to change anyway.

Cheyenne-

*Sigh* It's not socialism... it's a marketing strategy.

I think you rather missed my point.

And, as my "due respect" seems to merit accusations of a debilitated brain... I've drafted a new sig just for you.

Of course, I'm probably on some 'highly dangerous terrorist list' because I fear the delusionary effect of caffeine withdrawal more than 'absurd socialist mindsets'.

--
Through the bifocals of ignorance,
it's easy to observe
that things are absurdly simple...
or, more simply, absurd.
-- me

Followed by a comment that shows you have no idea what the point is.
The majority of people HERE who are "crying bloody murder" about the removal of these payments are not playing for free. Deal with THAT before you go for the conservative lnee-jerk reaction.

Individuals are adults. People in large groups have a collective mental age of about 2. Which is why marketing works even when you KNOW only a 2-year-old would go for that shill.

This is marketing.

I wouldn't go this far ... sounds rather mean.

But I guess that explains it all.

Strange, most the places i've been camping out kick you out of the chair after 60min so you have to re-sit down, thus combatting those who found ways to bypass the idle-logout sl has.

Sorry but i'm all for basic stippends. Always will be and no one can talk me out of it. Not everyone can afford to run out and buy lindens, and its really not fair to expect people to considering its a !!"GAME"!!

I could care less at how much some of you invest in the game and in wow, everquest, etc. And if any of you ever take the time to look at the front page, you can see sl is making tons of money each day.

so they're not exactly hurting for money, and most these attempts to fix the ecconomy have barely done anything since everyones still always complaning about inflation rates and land prices. The only way anyones going to fix these problems is to find a way to control the land prices. Thus less Lindens will need to be printed out in order to buy these places.