Well, I decided I wanted to see what the majority thinks about the removal of dwell in a simply poll format - so here it is.
Cheers,
Kirk
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Whats your opinion on the removal of dwell? |
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Which of the following statements applies to you?Removal of dwell is a change for the BETTER
116 (49.6%)
Removal of dwell is a change for the WORSE
71 (30.3%)
Removal of dwell is neither better or worse then the current system
47 (20.1%)
Total votes: 234
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kirkmegna Wombat
Registered User
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 89
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04-18-2006 08:57
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Ketra Saarinen
Whitelock 'Yena-gal
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 676
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04-18-2006 08:58
Psst. You forgot the poll.
Your fly is down too. |
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kirkmegna Wombat
Registered User
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 89
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04-18-2006 09:01
pssst...
I was filling in the poll options since you have to do that after you submit the posting  *zips up fly* |
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Ketra Saarinen
Whitelock 'Yena-gal
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 676
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04-18-2006 09:44
Guess I'm just lucky then
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
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04-18-2006 09:53
I'm not sure there is a good answer for me on this one. Dwell was definitely broken. In it's current state, it subsidized practices that did not help LL or the general user that much. I do think there is a place for something like this in SL. Perhaps LL could create a better version of Dwell, but perhaps their development time is better directed at other things.
What I would love to see are more player run initiatives to support locations which make SL a more entertaining and interesting place. _____________________
imakehuddles.com/wordpress/
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kerunix Flan
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2005
Posts: 393
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04-18-2006 10:45
If you really need dwell to live in SL, then your business is wrong.
I mean... to win good money is dwell you need an huge traffic. If you have a huge traffic and your main money income is just (loosy) dwell, then you're wrong, really ... Oh and... dwell removal is good  |
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Jellin Pico
Grumpy Oldbie
Join date: 3 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,037
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04-18-2006 10:47
I think this will be a good thing for SL as a whole. Up till now the popular places have been dominated by the camping chair syndrome. People gettting cash just for being in a particular place for a period of time.
I'm not knocking clubs in general, I use to run one, but todays incarnation of the club is a rubber stamp of the design started by Club Elite. Ever since Club Elite, everyone made clones and just stretched the idea farther in one direction; pay people for dancing. I find the experiance, after the 100th identical club, to be a shallow entertainment. Then there's the big malls. OK, I love shopping ... LOVE IT! But how many malls cram their rooms with crap just to get people to come and spend time wandering around? A lot. I think 2 big changes will come. First, clubs are going to have to shrink in size unless the owner has money to burn and just wants a big damn club to hell with the cost. Clubs will have to offer better entertainment than just letting you dance on a cool dancefloor. Clubs will have to narrow their focus to cater to a specific demographic. And this is a good thing! It's also possible to have a successful club like this that absolutely does not through money at people. I know this since Marilyn Murphy started one of the first truly successful, and famous, clubs in SL, Club Vogue. Later I took it over and it was a winner of the monthly developers bonus more than once. Customers got nothing except entertainment and they paid for it. Malls on the other hand will have to be judicious of who they let in. I imagine quality overall will go up as poor designers will be unable to pay tier and mall owners will only want successful designers on their property. Casino's .... well casino's may shrink in size somewhat, but a fool will always be parted from their money with rapid ease. So I see this as a very good thing for SL. _____________________
It's Official! Jellin, you are soooooo FIC! Fabulous, Intelligent and Cute |
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Eloise Pasteur
Curious Individual
Join date: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,952
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04-18-2006 10:49
I'm abstaining - I don't know yet.
Changing dwell *will* change SL. Whether that's for the better, the worse, or null I find almost impossible to predict - at least in part because we're not seeing the data to make a prediction. My first guess, it will probably change the camping chair culture, although not kill it - traffic will still affect find position. That's good for my L$1. It will probably alter the exchange rate towards (but not to) L$250 = US$1, that's probably good for folks like me that cash L$ to pay tier, but maybe not, as it might put people off buying them, the $300 mark (roughly) seems to be where it settles down pretty much and if that were a stable value then we could all work with it happily. Killing basic alt's stipends might have made a bigger difference, and might be necessary anyway in a few months time, so why not do it now? Without the data to look at it's hard to guess if that's good or not. We'll see. I'd guess, probably, good overall, but maybe not a brave enough decision, and whatever changes it does bring about longer term I'm sure there will be some rough as well as the smooth. |
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ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
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04-18-2006 11:07
Well, I decided I wanted to see what the majority thinks about the removal of dwell in a simply poll format - so here it is. Cheers, Kirk Less Dwell payments means less Linden Dollars Printed. Helping to curb the Money Supply Inflation. _____________________
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Static Sprocket
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 157
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04-18-2006 11:14
One place where I think it'll make a bit of a wave, is with landlords -- rental and land developers. Often people in these two groups will own vast tracts of land, which can bring in a fairly large amount of dwell which at least one rental group uses for their Find Places and Classifieds fees.
Removal of dwell will cause those fees to have to come "out of pocket" and could potentially raise rent and land sale prices. If the Lindex does not rebound before dwell is completely removed, then the combined lower exchange rate and lack of dwell *should* cause rental and land fee rates to inflate some. I don't expect a large change, but even a subtle change across hundreds or thousands of rentals and properties could make for interesting changes. If players accept the higher rates, they'll likely have to make larger Lindex purchases -- which will further stabalize the Lindex. IMHO -- slow baby steps, with a few months of observation with each change is a much safer road to tread, then vast immeadiate changes. We won't feel the full impact of the loss of Developer Incentives for another month or two, and we won't feel the full impact of the loss of dwell for 2 to 3 months after it goes away. |
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Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
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04-18-2006 11:16
I think this will be a good thing for SL as a whole. Up till now the popular places have been dominated by the camping chair syndrome. People gettting cash just for being in a particular place for a period of time. Hugs Jellin It won't make a difference to me... One of the few premium members who doesn't own land any more, so I don't get any dwell. Remember though, those who think the sky is falling... in the days when Jellin ran her club, there was no dwell... When Elite started, there was no dwell, yet they were successful. When LL stopped paying entertainment grants, many business owners, myself included, sponsored events, sometimes regularly, sometimes spontaniously... Now of course, this is seen as a brand new idea that might save SL from the death that LL is trying to inflict... Quick, pass me my sky-proof umbrella... It's a circle. Even before Jellin took over Club Vogue, we were looking at charging entry fees... it didn't take off, but that doesn't make it a new idea now... Any clubs that have something special to offer will survive. The clones will (hopefully) die off. People say that SL will become a giant mall, well... think again... if they remove stipends, as all the business owners are calling for, then who will you sell to? _____________________
http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
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04-18-2006 11:43
My vote is cast assuming that you mean dwell payments. The daily traffic calculations are still going to be preformed and used to rank popular places and such. We simply won't be getting paid anything based on those numbers.
_____________________
Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-18-2006 15:54
If you really need dwell to live in SL, then your business is wrong. |
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kerunix Flan
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2005
Posts: 393
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04-18-2006 18:05
Removal of dwell will cause those fees to have to come "out of pocket" and could potentially raise rent and land sale prices. I don't know any single land barron that count the dwell for their rental price, including myself. And, if i remember correctly, the dwell go to the group that "own" the land, not to the private island owner. |
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Herzog Svarog
The Wise(ass)
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 74
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04-18-2006 18:58
Personally I think it's about time they got rid of dwell/traffic payments since the system is being abused similarly to the old ratings system. If anyone had been relying on these types of payments for anything other than just extra free money, perhaps they need to actually create some content instead of rely on AVs cluttering their land to make money. The other bonus of course will be the likely (and hopefully) increase of the L$'s (perceived) value in the market. (I say perceived 'cuz like ALL things in this world, real or virtual, nothing has value unless someone places value on it...ie: gold = a shiny rock, ppl like shiny rocks so gold is valuable, etc...)
Try to remember, there is no spoon... |
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Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
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Meh, prob won't make much of a diff
04-18-2006 19:01
I don't think it will matter one way or the other. The official reason the Lindens gave for eliminating the dwell bonus is to decrease the Linden supply in world. This being done to help control the exchange rate of Lindens to the US $.
Personally, the way SL's economy is set up I don't think the Lindens will have much luck in controlling the exchange rates by decreasing the supply of lindens. The weekly stipends defeat the whole process. I think that the actual merchants in SL would be able to do a much better job of keeping the exchange rate in check, as I have outlined in a different thread. (/130/dc/99616/2.html) The Lindens may own the servers, all the software and ultimately everything in second life, but really Second Life belongs to us, the players. WE create the content. WE create the reasons that people log into SL in the first place. The major merchants and land owners are really the ones who create Second Life, and as such they have an innate interest, even responsibility, to see that the economy prospers and stays healthy. Ultimately it falls to us, as content providers, to keep the linden exchange rate reasonable. |
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Cortex Draper
Registered User
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 406
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04-19-2006 03:55
My favorate places to visit in SL are the parks
Be they nature parks, theme parks, fun fairs, ski slopes, art galleries or whatever. Many of these will die and be replaced with yet more endless empty shops. They may be able to survive on tips, but thats so tacky. RL parks dont require tips and most wont survive even with tips. Now I pump a significant amount of RL money into this game, but if it turns into one giant shopping mall with nothing worth seeing I will move on to a different internet game with better content. To all the content creators who think they will be richer in RL from this, remember that the majority of your money unlimately comes from the paying game players who inject money into the economy or SL itself, and if they leave there will be no more money. |
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Azazel Trescothick
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 68
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04-19-2006 22:28
I don't think punishing all island and land owners for the abuse of camping chairs is a good idea. Why not target the real issue and set it up so that whoever uses camping chairs do not recieve dwell? Make land owners fill out a dwell application and a linden does a random investigation of the sim to see if they qualify.
Maybe it will work out but I sure would hate to see some new creations dissappear. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-20-2006 07:34
I don't think punishing all island and land owners for the abuse of camping chairs is a good idea. Why not target the real issue and set it up so that whoever uses camping chairs do not recieve dwell? Make land owners fill out a dwell application and a linden does a random investigation of the sim to see if they qualify. Just quite paying dwell for Basic visitors, and camping chairs will generate at most a few percent of the dwell they do now.... but most places will end up with more. Because most places have a mix of both kinds of visitors, and they won't be sharing the dwell pool with camping holes any more. But it's TOO LATE for this. The Lindens have Spoken. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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04-20-2006 08:21
I think this will be a good thing for SL as a whole. Up till now the popular places have been dominated by the camping chair syndrome. People gettting cash just for being in a particular place for a period of time. I'm not knocking clubs in general, I use to run one, but todays incarnation of the club is a rubber stamp of the design started by Club Elite. Ever since Club Elite, everyone made clones and just stretched the idea farther in one direction; pay people for dancing. I find the experiance, after the 100th identical club, to be a shallow entertainment. Then there's the big malls. OK, I love shopping ... LOVE IT! But how many malls cram their rooms with crap just to get people to come and spend time wandering around? A lot. I think 2 big changes will come. First, clubs are going to have to shrink in size unless the owner has money to burn and just wants a big damn club to hell with the cost. Clubs will have to offer better entertainment than just letting you dance on a cool dancefloor. Clubs will have to narrow their focus to cater to a specific demographic. And this is a good thing! It's also possible to have a successful club like this that absolutely does not through money at people. I know this since Marilyn Murphy started one of the first truly successful, and famous, clubs in SL, Club Vogue. Later I took it over and it was a winner of the monthly developers bonus more than once. Customers got nothing except entertainment and they paid for it. Malls on the other hand will have to be judicious of who they let in. I imagine quality overall will go up as poor designers will be unable to pay tier and mall owners will only want successful designers on their property. Casino's .... well casino's may shrink in size somewhat, but a fool will always be parted from their money with rapid ease. So I see this as a very good thing for SL. Well, these are some good, hopeful points. It will be interesting to see. coco _____________________
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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04-20-2006 08:25
Hugs Jellin It won't make a difference to me... One of the few premium members who doesn't own land any more, so I don't get any dwell. Remember though, those who think the sky is falling... in the days when Jellin ran her club, there was no dwell... When Elite started, there was no dwell, yet they were successful. When LL stopped paying entertainment grants, many business owners, myself included, sponsored events, sometimes regularly, sometimes spontaniously... Now of course, this is seen as a brand new idea that might save SL from the death that LL is trying to inflict... Quick, pass me my sky-proof umbrella... It's a circle. Even before Jellin took over Club Vogue, we were looking at charging entry fees... it didn't take off, but that doesn't make it a new idea now... Any clubs that have something special to offer will survive. The clones will (hopefully) die off. People say that SL will become a giant mall, well... think again... if they remove stipends, as all the business owners are calling for, then who will you sell to? OK look. (I'm thinking again, this morning, and I really wish I wouldn't do that.) Here's the deal: Why wish that club clones would die off? When you wish that things die off, you wish that PEOPLE die off, actually. Part of the reason we have so many clubs and clones of this and that is we have so many PEOPLE. If the plan is to make things harder for people to survive (and it is), then I have to conclude that what we want is fewer people. coco _____________________
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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04-20-2006 09:29
My favorate places to visit in SL are the parks They may be able to survive on tips, but thats so tacky. RL parks dont require tips and most wont survive even with tips. Actually a lot of real life parks solicit donations. There is a "tip jar" on a pedastal in a smallish park near here, where a lot of people eat lunch. People don't mind dropping in a quarter or so to help keep the place clean and mowed. The problem, of course, is that it would take a heck of a lot of L$1 donations to pay the tier on a park. Most park owners in Second Life just like parks and foot the expense. I can't see that doing away with dwell is going to matter much to most people, since the payouts were so tiny. However, perhaps people will remember that any object can be set for sale without being in a store or vendor. I wouldn't mind strolling through a lovely setting with price tags on everything, because I can just turn off my hover tips if I'm not shopping. And, in fact, I'm more likely to buy something if I see it in an attractive setting instead of in a vendor. _____________________
--Obvious Lady
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Jellin Pico
Grumpy Oldbie
Join date: 3 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,037
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04-20-2006 09:29
Here's the deal: Why wish that club clones would die off? When you wish that things die off, you wish that PEOPLE die off, actually. Part of the reason we have so many clubs and clones of this and that is we have so many PEOPLE. coco Drama much? Put words in peoples mouth often? A clone club extinction event would only be a good thing for SL as they are overpopulated. I mean what's one of the most common complaints about SL? Lack of originality when it comes to popular places. ie the clubs. I mean good lord, there's even a flame going on in another forum room about so-and-so's club looks exactely like so-and-so's club!! What's the big deal, in the big picture the only difference is how much money they throw at people. Again, I'm not knocking clubs in general, I just wish they were a wider selection of TYPES of clubs. Dance halls, quiet lounges, jazz clubs, more live music clubs, (btw live music clubs are great, but they often sound exactely alike. Not dissing the musicians, just saying most I've attended were one singer with a guitar singing a sort of soft half folksy half loungy sort of music. Where are the wanna-be garage bands, the techno junk, blues, etc. I don't know HOW many people in SL say they do their own music, most of them techno, Torley is an example, but she's a Linden now so it's a bad example, why don't we have live music from them? Entertainment spots that narrow their focus to a specific demographic will probably be a lot more sucessful in the future with dwell than the huge all-things-to-all-people mindless dancing throw money at people clubs we have now. And a lot more interesting to go to. _____________________
It's Official! Jellin, you are soooooo FIC! Fabulous, Intelligent and Cute |
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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04-20-2006 09:55
... Just quit paying dwell for Basic visitors, and camping chairs will generate at most a few percent of the dwell they do now.... but most places will end up with more. Because most places have a mix of both kinds of visitors, and they won't be sharing the dwell pool with camping holes any more. But it's TOO LATE for this. The Lindens have Spoken. IMO it's just another step down that long road to turning SL into just another capitalist paradise. There are already tons of players I run into everyday who are not even aware that SL ever *was* anything other than an "economic simulation game." A year ago you would only see a thread on "the Linden" or economics in the forums once in a blue moon, now there are five or six threads going 24/7 with every college students pompous predictions about "the economy." The Lindens have spoken alright. Content that does not generate cash is simply not anything they care about anymore. The "Governor" no longer supports the Arts in SecondLife. He should change his name to "Caretaker." _____________________
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black art furniture & classic clothing =================== Black in Neufreistadt Black @ ONE Black @ www.SLBoutique.com . |
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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My chief opposition to the removal of Dwell Income.
04-20-2006 12:01
(Most of my posts have been in favor of dwell income removal.
To be fair, here are my counter points) "What's the point?" now has one less answer. Not everyone can be counted upon to create purpose and motive in a vacuum. Because SecondLife looks like a game, 'Players' arrive expecting specific objectives, goals, coveted resources and, in general one or a small number of ideal ways to 'play'. (Where's the dang strategy guide?) Then they discover that SecondLife is pretty open-ended. That much freedom can seem an intimidatingly blank slate. Not a problem for naturally creative types, but something that can easily make someone looking for a 'game' feel rather lost and uncomfortable. Some will find that "Eureka!" moment... and discover a project or purpose they can enjoy investing their time, effort and money. Some may not. As dwell income was one of the (more psychological than financial) rewards for doing something popular, it was one of the 'game rules' that helped people adapt to SecondLife. Some people are motivated by example, others motivated by the promise of something of value. Good or bad, one more motivator is fading away. And we'll just have to see how it plays out. |