Rid The Pg Land!! Make It All Mature!

Not the agrue about the fact that there is a need for PG and mature sims, I have seen some tasteful done places without the big signs and so on. Of course there also some very nice places made for private use.

Morwen.

really, than why is there a teen grid.......

I'll join the list of "boot this idea out the door" folks. Like one user said, I'm by no means a prude, but...

In my personal-book-of-thoughts-to-live-by, "mature" and "adult" has nothing to do with the propensity to use obscene language and walk around naked. Just the opposite in fact. Maturity means having the good sense to know that one may speak intelligently without uttering an F word every other sentence, and an "adult" movie is one that causes the blood to course through one's brain rather than elsewhere.

"PG land" or sim simply means that the people who own it prefer that visitors leave the garbage attitudes and conduct elsewhere. It means the theme of this land has purpose other than cyber sex. It means if you really want to be mature... then grow up and stop acting like a 3rd grader who thinks that using language to shock people is funny.

Ok, maybe that sounds prude. It's not. Sex is great. The human body is great. Nothing wrong with it at all. But as with all things, there is a time and place for it. And there are conceivably areas where the land owner says, "This isn't the place and time. Take your libido and coarse attitude elsewhere." And that landowner should certainly have that right.

I never have gotten a warning for such, but I prefer to use so-called "profanity" as a spice, not the main course, and try to be inventive when I do; about the only one I use unaltered on a regular basis is, in fact, "shit". To refer to the end-product of digestion. It's a good, solid Anglo-Saxon monosyllable, after all!

Like I said -- there is no reasonably-priced PG land -- and the prices for M-rated land are astronomical.

This is supposed to be a make-believe SECOND LIFE, where you can own land and build something EVEN IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO IN YOUR FIRST LIFE. Now all the money-mad morons want to make SL a mirror of the money=grubbing RL economy, with legal contracts and mortgages, private investigators checking to see if your avatar's "boyfriend" is cheating on her by doing BOGUS CYBERSEX with anothe little graphic doll in an animated, graphic nightclub or private playroom. SL now has beggars (campers), stalkers, a mortgage "bank", plastic surgeons (shape/skin designers) strippers, whores, contract assassins and goons, and spammers.

There was a period in the 80s when the conservatives were getting really tweaked about the DUNGEONS/DRAGONS games -- and there were some high-profile crimes/incidents that involved D6D gamers; one statistic that came out of all the expert discussions in various court testimony was that APPROXIMATELY 4% OF THE POPULATION CANNOT RECOGNIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REALITY AND FANTASY. I think some of the members of SL are either way over the edge there or very close to it.

Maybe SL should be returned to a non-economy or a severely limited one, by Linden Labs, as a corrective measure, passibly by making the Linden dollar only viable in SL, and the LD/USD exchange only one-way -- thereby breaking any connection between the RL economy and the SL economy.

This would also protect LL itself: At some point, some semi-bright nitwit will decide to "invest" his entire life savings in some idiotic SL "venture", lose all his RL money in SL, and then sue LL to recover his RL money. His/her argument will be that LL knew that there were risks in attempting to establish a mini-economy, and delibertately ignored them, while encouraging the "residents" of SL to think of it as real, and operating under RL ethical/legal standards. LL will lose everything, and SL will disappear.

I can just hear it now -- something like the scene in the movie TWO FOR THE MONEY, in which some dimwit who bet his life savings on a SPORTS GAME (and loses ALL OF IT) screams in despairing agony: "I HAD A LIFE!!!" Too bad he didn't have a working brain to go with...

Gambing is a game for fools.. anyone counting on SL being a permanent economy/career/income source is in need of serious medication. The land "barons" are just working the game for what they can get while the getting is good, but the machinations behind the scenes are ruining the GAME for the rest of us, and might ruin it for LL as well, in the future.

I dunno, I must be special, cos I'm one of "the rest of us" and I'm yet to feel the tyranny of 'land barons'. So far I seem to be able to do what the hell I (realistically) want.
SL is not a game. It can be a game for some, there are games within it, but it is not in itself a game, except in the 'life is but a game' sense. This ain't TSO, and it ain't WOW, feel me?

LOL. I'm glad you said this, and thanks from all us "Land Barons". I get so tired of people using the term "Land Baron" as if such are tirants that are ripping people off every day. There is obviously a great degree of jealous envy there.

If you speak with people who rent land from Elf Clan (plug! LOL), or Anshe or others, they are generally very pleased with he deal they are getting. We have four sims (so I don't know if we exactly qualify as "land barons"... and we (as do other "Land barons" save people a bunch of money over SL tier costs. They wind up paying less, live in a private, moderated, protected, themed, zoned environment-- and they love it.

So I have to think that those who bad-mouth land barons really need to spend their time doing something more constructive. LOL. Same with folks who bad-mouth merchants etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with working hard to turn a buck (and believe me, established merchants work hard for their money). I'd be the first to agree that SL might be more fun if it were not economy based. But it is economy based, so people can live with it or find somewhere else to spend their leisure time. Standing around and putting down others for succeeding within the parameters of the game really is not at all classy. Go to WOW and getcher head chopped off by a rampaging ultra-warrior instead. LOL

So thanks again for standing up for the "Land Barons".

If only the mainland afforded such luxuries, and those of us who want a quality experience could gain it without being pushed off to have to use the services of a land baron, unless you are very very lucky.

I just wish sometimes us little people got something good out of the deal, rather than the old story of if you have money you can make more, if you don't, you're SOL.

Lewis

/me sighs...

Come on. Let's get real. "Pushed off'. By what? Having to use the services of a 'land baron'? There's plenty of land for sale by others, and I should add, often, individual 'players' are selling their lands at much higher rates. I see 'barons' selling 512s for L$2500, and the same ' barons are offering to buy at L$4a metre.
I recall you advising in a post that if someone offers you less than L$4k for your first land, you're getting ripped off. That's L$8 a metre, way above 'baron' rates, and how much do you think they'd have to charge if people took your advice?
I don't even understand this constant griping about land prices. It's tier that's the killer. If you can't afford to buy it, you can't afford the tier either.
Sure it takes money to make money, but entry costs in SL are ridiculously low compared to anything in RL. And you can start small and build up you know. I've been to your land, seen what you have for sale and you could run that off 512m and have plenty of growing room.
Really, I find this whole 'what about the little people' pathetic, sorry. I find the notion that others are restricting your imagination and impeding your entertainment just plain silly. You just can't go through (any) life being a victim, and blaming your circumstances and shortcomings on others. Adversity comes your way? Try harder! Feel restricted? Imagine more with what you have at hand.
When I get frustrated by my RL situation, and feel a bit sorry for myself, I think of Matisse. He was bedridden for extended periods in his life. But did he stop creating? Not for one second. He attached a piece of chalk to a long stick, so he could draw on the wall from his bed.
Sometimes with creativity, limitations are a good thing. You have to refine your ideas more, you use what you have more effectively. Think of The Beatles. They created masterpieces on four tracks.

Also, the idea that the people who own a sim or large amounts of land are some kind of rich hob-nobs who eat off silver plates is really silly.

Yes, $1250 and $195 a month is a steep investment, although you can mitigate that a bit by getting a second-hand sim sometimes.

It's not that steep to the average sort of person in SL. Don't kid yourself; SL is a luxury good that requires a significantly above-average personal computer, Internet connection, and of course, a certain amount of free time. There's a lot of people in SL who can't drop $1250 easily; there's quite a few who can, and there's a fair number who can earn it in SL, like Desmond Shang did.

Hell, I'm close to the bottom end of the wealth spectrum as this sort of thing goes and just pitched in with a bunch of friends to get a sim (since the proceeds from our various shops in-world do a good job of covering the monthly cost, pooled together).

Do I suggest everyone do this? No. But it's quite reasonable on the scale of "serious hobbyist" costs, let alone if you want to try and make a profit at it. Your average avid console gamer spends more, let alone the really seriously geeky and expensive hobbies like Society for Creative Anachronism or mountain-climbing or model railroading or something.

Glad someone pointed this out.

In regard to the constant slams against "Land Barons"... let's talk about Land Barons.

Land Barons provide zoned lands that often have added security. You don't have to have a Premium membership to rent their land, nor do you have to worry about tier. Often their land costs are less than what you would pay in monthly tier, because they pay for land in bulk and pass the savings on to their renters. They are usually very responsive to renter needs. I read a forum recently where people were asked to rate their "Land Baron" hosts; pretty much every rating was very positive.

It seems the Land Barons and Merchants always get hit on the nose by people who are obviously either misinformed or envious. But in truth, the Land Barons make life on SL a lot easier and less expensive for a lot of people, provide interesting themes and make SL life less griefer-infested by their increased security measures and responsiveness. And merchants work their tails off to provide everyone with those goodies that they want so much.

So folks, it's not the Land Barons and the Merchants that are the snobs and who look down on the "little guy". IMHO, it's usually just the opposite. The Land Barons and Merchants bend over backwards to help other people and it's the "little guy" who is often selfish and insistant on his own benefit in total disregard to the needs of others. Of course, that's a generalized statement, but I don't often hear Land Barons or Merchants bad-mouthing people who don't have much in the way of funds.

I'm a Merchant and my partner is a Land Baron. LOL. But we really do try to do a good job.

... making a profit for themselves, instead of LL making the profit and possibly breaking even each month.

Land prices are just like the economy - less than 1% of the playerbase set the prices which everyone else has to suffer.

PG land is necessary for people who don't want to be confronted with sex everywhere - it's sad that with all the creativity and talent available that most things come down to that lowest form.

Keep the PG land, and give people a better incentive to sign up to premium and pay LL direct, rather than the land barons.

You do realise that if LL increased premium tier by 512 sq m to 1024 free as an incentive (and an extra 512 on all other tiers), that the price balance would shift so that a lot of the barons would find their 'delicate business model' would go pop.

Then people will pay LL instead, everyone (except a few big land barons who couldn't handle the changes) is happy, and all is well in game.

Lewis

I moved from a mature to a pg lot and increased my sales and visitors!

Its nice to have a place where everyone can visit and enjoy themselves.

Lewis, you are missing one major point. LL likes land barons, because they reduce the amount of customer service and accounting that LL has to do to handle all these customers.

LL wouldn't make any more profit if they rented the land to residents directly, because they would have to hire a bunch more customer service reps to handle the inevitable stuff that the land barons take care of now for their customers.

- Jon

I have a significantly below-average personal computer with a 2-year-old graphics card and 3-year-old CPU and motherboard. It cost me under $200 total because I was able to use hand-me-down parts from someone who was upgrading their computer to support half Life 2.

A DSL connection here costs $12.99 a month for a year's commitment if you already have phone service, plus a $40 modem with a $40 mail-in rebate.

So, let's compare:

A sim costs: $1250 plus $200 a month.

The requirements for playing SL are: $240 plus $13 a month (with a $40 rebate).

I don't know about you, but 5x the down payment and 10x the monthly charges is not what I'd call "not that steep".

Lewis, land sales are unregulated by Linden Lab, so people can charge whatever they like. And everyone does so; they will charge whatever the market will bear.

For the land barons to have the land in the first place (at least those who own private lands), they have to PAY Linden Lab a hefty fee... to the tune of about US$3,540 the first year. In addition, they don't set the primary prices, Linden Lab sets the tier basis. Purchasing land itself is rather minor to the continued tier fees you will have to pay month after month. Purchasing an entire sim costs US$1,200. The tier fees for the first year are $2,340. On mainland, 1024m can easily cost US$29. The first year tier fees are US$60! That makes it somewhat difficult to buy and sell land at a profit. If the land doesn't sell immediately, tier can quickly eat up percentages.

Land Barons don't make money by buying and selling land. They make money by buying in bulk and renting it. That rent is quite often equal to or even lower than LL tier fee. In addition, even Basics can rent land. Everyone wins... Linden Lab (who rents the land to the Baron), the Land Baron (who makes a small profit on the rented land, if all the land rents) and the renters, who have a living place with lots of advantages over mainland and often at less cost.

If a person buys and sells land they aren't Land Barons... they're real estate brokers. To be a "Land Baron".. you have to own vast tracts of land. Some folks like Anshe Chung work in both areas, but Land Barons basically rent land to others, at great benefit to the renters. Anyone can buy and sell land; such does not a Land Baron make.

Further, you believe Linden Lab isn't breaking even each month? They are a multi-million dollar company earning enough profit to open brand new expanded offices last year and employ over 100 people. They charge for every square meter of land on Second Life, regardless who owns the land. Land Barons by no means are swiping fees that would otherwise go to Linden Lab. Just the opposite, they're paying the fees.



I fully agree. I might point out that its some of the Land Barons that are preserving the PG land concept so people like you and me can enjoy a land free of such things. You sure won't find many PG mainland areas any more.



It would shift it slightly, but I know at least with Elf Clan, our business model would still hold up. I really fail to see where you're getting these concepts. Have you put a calculator to these claims or checked to see how land rentals work? Doing so might change your opinions.

Bear, you've given me the opportunity to brag a little, if everyone will tolerate it.

ElvenGlen, Elf Haven, ElvenMoor and ElvenWood are all PG sims.
Elf Clan is a PG group, by Charter. PG is strictly enforced on our lands and in our group.

We just won two 2006 Metaverse awards:

Group
Privately Owned Sims

(woot!)

In addition, one of our members (Odil Lumiere) won a Metaverse award for Building... a PG castle/library in a PG sim (DarkWood).

I think that speaks well for the PG concept and confirms the points you made above. Apparently there are enough people who enjoy the PG concept to vote them as winners of three major awards.

I invite you to examine the cost of the servers that the sims run on, the cost of the many gigabytes of bandwidth that must be used, etc, etc. Everything's relative.

And it's NOT that steep, split several ways. We're seeing more groups pool resources to get sims in SL; few of them have gone to the legalistic extent of Neualtenburg, but clearly it's not the impossible dream for a fair number of people, and I'm not even counting land-rental outfits in the vein of Dreamland.

Actually I have to agree with Fade. I personally am not offended by much of anything, although I do find certain things distasteful. Thing is thre are those who may be offended by some of the more blatant behaviour in a mature sim so there is a need for PG land. Just because some want to see it does not mean everyone does.

Marlin Engineering is in a PG sim, and I would never put it in a mature sim. I am the farthest thing from a prude that there is, and I like sex and porn as much as the next person, but for people looking for serious vehicle builders, the little "Mature" box on the Find window brings a pile of places that have nothing to do with vehicles.

If you un-check the box to get rid of the noise, you also eliminate any vehicle builder who is in a mature sim.

If you're selling mature content, then you clearly need to be in a mature sim. However, if you aren't, I can't imagine why you would be willing to lose all those customers who don't like the sex spam in the Find menu...

- Jon

I'm not sure I understand your point. I didn't say the cost wasn't fair. I said it wasn't cheap.

Look, I use a Macintosh for my day-to-day computing. I'm willing to pay a premium for my computer, and I consider that premium worthwhile. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to pretend you don't have to pay more for your computer to get a Mac.

This is the same kind of thing. Whether the costs for a sim are reasonable or not, they are significantly more than most people are paying to play Second Life, even if you include hardware and bandwidth costs. If that's the only way to solve a problem for them, then that's a problem.

Yes, I know you can go in with other people on the purchase. Someone still has to commit to actually putting themselves on the hook for it.

It's cheap for what you get, and given that all of SL is something of a luxury good, being here by definition implies free time and disposable income.

Also, the original statement was that "private sim" doesn't equal "rich bastard", which is my real point. People act as if only the idle rich can get private sims; ANYONE can with a little work and planning. I never claimed it was easy. However, it is well within the bounds of the kind of money most serious hobbyists spend on their hobby. Saying "but it's a lot more expensive than basic access to SL!" is kind of BESIDE THE POINT.