Land and 2nd Accounts

If I open an additional 2nd account does that new name get to purchase a first buyer parcel?

If not, skip this.

If so, can I sell that land to my other account/name?

I'd like to refer you to a very fun thread if I may:

Second Accounts and Ethics

read 'em and weep

Yes, a little bit to much fun for me to read today

I talked to support though and they said no problem!

Thanks.

Yes to both bargain. Just don't tell anybody that you did. There's a huge social stigma applied to using alts for buying first land.

Too late! Placing bargain Walcott on The List.

lol, well if there is a list, SL should be placed on it because they are the ones who are benifiting most from this little scam as far as I can see.

Thanks 4 the help people.

Heh.

coco

bargain, it's in your best interest to get 5 premium accounts on the annual membership. each account will generate 100 USD worth of L$ stipends for a total of 500 USD. the accounts would only cost you 350$. so you could in fact sell 70% or your L$ stipends to offset the cost of your accounts. you would also recieve a complimentary 512 m2 tier per account for a total of 2560 m2 on five accounts.

basically by getting 5 premium accounts, you can play SL for for free with a sizeable amount of land.

Really ?
Interesting !
Could we know who ?

I'm glad people think this is a funny issue. It's not illegal to throw trash on the ground, but I won't do that either.

It's not against the rules to buy a 16 sqm of land and put a big particle lag monster with an ugly sign on it and set it for sale for 2000$L, but I won't do that either.

bargain Walcott, welcome to Second Life. Just remember that by buying the land with your alt, you are preventing a "real First Land" buyer from having land. I guess it's a conscience thing for me. I also guess there are people who pretend to be responsible Second Life Residents who condone this action.

You can also sell freebies for money to newbies. This as well is not technically against the rules.

You can buy a Prefab House and if the permissions are messed up, you can sell copies as your own, because technically it's not against the rules.

Twice in the past 2 weeks I found vendors selling items for $L0. Technically I could have bought a bunch and kept them or sold them. But instead I informed the sellers of their errors and even paid the one whose prefab house I bought. Technically I did not have to do this, but I feel better about myself for having done so.

If a cashier gives me too much change back, technically I can keep it. But I don't, I give it back to them.

I'm not some overtly religious person, I think it's a personal thing between me and whatever higher power there is. I just try to be fair and put myself in the other person's place. I wouldn't want to be the First Land buyer who is looking for land and can't find any because all the alts have them. Plus the spirit of the program is to let people know what it is like to own land at a lower rate before investing a larger amount amount with a regular plot.

I am sadden that support would encourage this behavior. I know this absolves you of all wrong, but I would hope you would think twice before doing it.

But then again, don't listen to me. I have some archaic ideas about honesty and self opinions. Eventually I will be banished to a house in the woods for my eccentric ideas. In this age where congressmen, parents and religious figures skirt technicallities as oppose to pure moral decency, I don't fit in anymore. And this saddens me.

No, you are not preventing any "real" first-time player from buying their first land.

The Lindens release first land in response to how many new accounts are needing it. Sometimes they get behind in this, but more always comes up. They should be quicker about it.

I feel it is perfectly honest and above board to use the things your premium account comes with. After all, you paid for it.

If they want to make it illegal to do so, fine - but then they will have to lower the cost of the premium account that actually gives you less than the others.

If people are intending to buy up a bunch of premium accounts (more than they are legally entitled to) in order to then resell the property and quit the account, then I feel that isn't fine. (However, I don't think there would be much profit in doing that, either.)

For those who feel differently, fine. As for me, if I pay for a premium account I plan to keep with my good money, I'm entitled to what goes with it. Period.

This issue has nothing to do with other issues, like notifying a vendor of their error, or selling freebies for money, etc.. Zilch.

And . . . here we go again!

coco

No Coco, they already said it was released according to original accounts, not alts. It keeps track of alts.

Remember when you first started looking and there were none. Robin has said very explicitly that the First land was intended for First Land accounts.

And excuse me, but this has everything to do with all the other issues. These other issues are also not "technically wrong". And if you called Support, they would say the same thing.

Are you telling me if you accidentally set a house for $L0 and someone bought it, they would be doing anything "technically wrong"? Wouldn't Support tell them that if the vendor set the house for $L0, then it would be okay to buy it?

I'm glad you can blur the lines so easily. It must make things a lot easier for you. I can't and I am not comfortable standing by letting this issue get blurred either.

I'm going to have to go on a search - unless you have a link - that says the system releases land on the basis of "new players who are not alts."

And if that is true, they either need to change that, or they need to make it impossible to buy First Land as an alt. Anything else sets a trap, like the one I fell into, and was cheerfully flogged for by dozens on the forums.

I know what Robin has said explicitly. I disagree with her. If that is to be a rule, then they need to make it a rule, i.e., not possible, i.e., with qualifiers everywhere saying "but not your alt" - not make it so that anybody would naturally expect to get the First Land with their second account, and then unexpectedly have their head handed to them on a platter on the forums for doing so.

In your VIEW this has everything to do with other issues. But it doesn't, because you are saying you are too moral to do this and I am less moral to do it. The implication is that I would then be less moral in all those other areas.

That would be incorrect. The fact is, you consider a second account buying First Land to be immoral, and I do not.

We might agree on the morality of the other situations you bring up. But we don't agree on the morality of this one. That doesn't make you moral about it, and me not. I, too, have moral decency.

coco

I am not saying anything about anyone else, just how I feel. And that "technically" those things are okay to do. That Support would say the same thing. Yes if someone set a house accidentally to $L0, you can buy it. Yes if someone didn't put the right permissions on an object, you can sell it as your own. Last month someone sold a lovely windchime with copy and transfer on. Did I sell them or even give them away, no. But technically I could have.

As for making it impossible for alts to buy First Land, the way it was explained to me was that if they did that, then that would make it harder for couples or families or roommates or anyone sharing the same IP address to buy First Land if someone else has already done it in the group. This would cause hardship for legitimate First Land buyers in such that they would have to go through such lengths to prove they are a real second person that it would dampen their Second Life First Land buying experience. So LL has put it on the honor system.

I will try to find that post for you. It was posted the last time this issue came up.

April, do you have an extra room for me in that house pls....

I understand your point of view, April. I could justify my own self because I bought the second account having justified it to my husband as for him and my daughter as well - so that would let me out on the spouse/same family clause. But I don't want that out, because I don't believe that anyone shouldn't get their full value out of their real second account.

I am saying the "honor system" doesn't work. It makes criminals out of people who do no wrong, who don't even KNOW (as I didn't) that there was any such honor system in effect for people buying true, real premium accounts. As such, I refuse to support a system like this.

And I refuse to support it on moral grounds. A system which makes people criminals through no intent of their own, and then sitting ducks for people on the forums to accuse them of all the things I was accused of, is morally indefensible.

coco

I don't think it makes you a criminal if you didn't know. But once people know, it's good to not endorse it, accept the spirit of the program and educate others. Like I said, I'm just a different breed. When I bought some First Land and then sold it and bought a bigger piece in an area where some First Land was available, I had just created my First alt. I needed a more prim, I'm such a prim ho, LOL. And I considered buying some with my alt, but it just didn't seem right to me. But again, that was just me. I'm so silly I won't even own a car because I think they hurt the environment and take public transportation instead.

But I digress, my point was, I could have easily bought some First Land, not understanding the intent, I did some research and read the whole Land for the Landless spiel and decided not to. But if I had, and then come to understand the intent of the program, I would have the same stand I have now.

If you didn't know, you weren't a criminal, but now we have the opportunity to educate and see that the program is used responsibly. Just the way we do other things in Second Life. We organize and educate. Just like with the forum rules, some things aren't technically against the rules, but we can say hey, wouldn't it be better if we didn't do this?

Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to be as clear as possible. Also, search isn't working for me right now, so I can't pull up the quote just yet. But I'll keep trying.

I understand what you are saying.

But I won't endorse it because it is unfair. People don't have any sort of heads up, and there's nothing saying they can't do it, and nothing preventing them from doing it.

I won't endorse it because I don't want anyone else going through what I did when I mentioned buying first land on my alt account on the forums.

Nobody deserves that, and this situation sets them up for it. Doing that to people is, to me, much worse morally than taking First Land, even if you DO know the unwritten rule about it. Having a system that allows this to happen to people is more immoral, because this really DOES hurt people. It hurt me, and danged if I'm gonna promote a system set up to hurt others in the future.

They need to just change this, and say, "We've decided to change this. Now that we have a limit on the number of accounts any individual has, we are no longer requesting that First Land be limited to only one per person."

That would let everyone off the hook. Particularly since this "requesting" business, then letting people who didn't happen to read the "request" in a forum post somewhere get bashed relentlessly on the forums and called names - that is, if not immoral, at least inconsiderate, insufficient, and definitely unfair.

coco

It's not an unwritten rule. But as long as it keeps real SL First Land buyers from finding available property, I will support it.

The biggest problem Coco, and I meant to touch on this earlier, is that once someone has bought land bought land, they know the ins and outs of it. They know how to find it, theya know the best deals as far as waterfront and what have you. Now this makes them an experienced buyer. Now the real First Land buyer comes to town, knowing nothing. You have experienced buyers competing with novices in a market that was meant for novices.

This is like putting Varsity players in with the Pee wee players and expecting a level playing field. This is the part that bothers me more than any of it. These plots are designed for the novice, not the experienced. Plus, they see another "First Lander" buying land next them and think they are as new unaware of the alt situation. It's not fair.

I will continue to stick up for the new people because they are the ones who will suffer.

I find the above statement somewhat off-base.

If only 15% of all SLers own land, it would be silly for LL to release one first land parcel per new account, and obviously they don't. How do they know how many "new accounts are needing it"?

Therefore, we have to assume that they guess, based on the 15% figure, and then issue a limited amount based upon that, which then brings about the occasional availability issues.

Here's another example along the lines of what April is saying.

I frequently watch the find land for sale list. If I get some land and the owner tells me it was a mistake, they didn't mean to sell it, I give it back. Is it a rule that I have to? No. I asked LL so that I would know for sure, and they said "It would be nice if you would return it, but you do not have to." In the end, what they say doesn't matter to me, because I already return them - because it's about principle and maintaining a clear conscience.

I have a clear conscience, Nolan.

Naturally, I would give back the land I had purchased mistakenly as in your example.

I'm the sort who turns around, walks a block back to the restaurant, after I notice they charged us for only one chicken-fried steak dinner instead of two. Was it a rule I had to? No. I found an endorsed check once, and drove to its bank of origin to turn it in. Didn't think twice about it. But I had a hard time explaining to them that I wasn't cashing it, but returning it to its rightful owner, and they were kind of amazedly grateful.

Just last week I received a box from UPS that I went to a lot of trouble trying to track down the correct owner, and then arranging for them to come back and pick it up. They thanked me for my honesty. (Turns out it actually WAS for me; my girlfriend had put her nephew's name on it, haha.) I'm honest on my income taxes. I could give dozens of examples. I really don't need the principle explained to me.

I once stole a package Twinkies when I was in first grade. I felt so guilty about it, I kept going back and "accidentally" leaving money on the counter until I had paid for the dang Twinkies probably five or six times over. It is the only thing I ever stole. No one ever knew about it.

I bought the premium account, and I got the 512 that comes with it. I paid for it. It's mine.

I am a morally strong person. I have nothing to feel guilty for, regarding this 512 land business, and neither does anyone else who buys First Land with their true, real alt.

If others feel differently, that's fine.

coco

Thank you Nolan. I just wish everyone could understand this. Yes premium accounts come with 512 but it's not 512 First Land. The First Land Market is for new people with less savvy than someone who knows the ins and outs of the market. Putting the new buyers up against experience users isn't fair.

Can you see this Coco? Can you see how unfair it is for new buyers to compete with seasoned buyers? This makes it a breeze for any old player to watch First Land, see some nice waterfront property and bam, create an alt and snatch it away from a real First Land buyer who might have had a nice little bonus coming his or her way. You seem very honorable, I don't know why this seems different than all the other honorable actions you have engaged in. Yes, you didn't know it, but now you do. Let's not have new people competing with wiser older people.

Think of it this way, you're in a road race. There are several categories, kids, teenagers, young adults and older adults. Each have different prizes. Would it be fair for one of the teenagers to pretend to be a little bit younger, just to get the kids' prize? No. Would you think of running in the teenager race if you are an experienced young adult runner? No. This is the same thing. Any experienced user has an unfair advantage over a new user and it's not fair.

I always thought that LL released first land according to the number of new premium accounts, in which case I can't see a problem with Coco and others buying first land with their alts.

If they are not allowed to do this, as Coco said, then put it in the rules. If alts cannot buy first land, then what is the point of people making their alt's premium?

I have an alt which is non-premium but if I were to go premium with it then I would buy first land - its part of the package.

April, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet. Don't know if you know what that means lol.

Alexa

Em . . . no. I could call auctions unfair for the same sorts of reasons. I sit and watch a sim full of new land, then all of a sudden the whole thing turns into someone else's land cause they had enough money to buy it on auction.

This business about older players knowing the land better than newer ones, and thus shouldn't have at First Land with their alts, is really a very, very tangential and weak consideration.

I would venture to guess that at more people choose their alt's first land in order to be next to the land they already have, than choose their alt's first land because they have been sitting there waiting for, and trying to swoop down on, the most valuable possible land so they can sell it and make a profit. Though I'm sure it happens.

I made my alt, I needed my land to be contiguous. Course, maybe I'm just stupid, and would have done better to use what VERY little land knowledge I already had after five months of playing to try to make some money from buying and then selling the First Land.

I really don't think most people's goals are that, though. I think people who are investing in an alt are likely doing it for the same reasons I am - to expand their store, to make another worker for their store - or to expand the place where they already have a residence so they can have more land and put down more prims.

That's why I think that consideration is really quite minor. The whole need for land, I think, is much more about actually needing land than it is about eyeing fine parcels, hanging about the game 24/7, and then getting a waterfront place before some hapless newbie can.

Also, I was anything but a seasoned buyer - having bought nothing but my one piece on my regular account, and a few pieces around it from neighbors. I'm not in the land business, and I don't think most people are. I doubt most people five months old and wanting to buy a piece of First Land with their alt next to their first First Land are in any significant way more savvy about "the land game" than someone buying their first piece of First Land.

coco

Because I care about the First Land buyers I have a bee in my bonnet? Wow, that's pretty interesting. I guess caring about anything in this game would garner the same response? One would say you have a bee in your bonnet about Linden's owning land, but that one would not be me. We can all have concerns. If there were no concerns, there would be no need for the Forums other than to say woot and what have you. I am sorry my concern does not meet your criteria. Please post a list of acceptable things to be concerned about and I will try to stick to your guidelines, okay?

In the meantime, Robin did say First Land was for First buyers, not alts. I can't seem to make search work right now. I've tried it on 3 different computers, 2 macs and 1 pc and still can't get it to work. Otherwise I would link to Robin's statement.

I want to try to prevent others from having the same type of experience Coco had when she tried to look for First Land and none were available. I want people to enjoy Second Life as much as I do. And I don't like seeing new people being taken advantage of.

I can repeat my other issues, but they are listed in my previous posts.