Have Lindens Removed Dreamland Citizens' Right to Sell Their Land?

Here is an excerpt from the law on fraudulent advertising relevant, I suggest, to the moral aspects of advertising SL private-sim land as "for sale". Since under the meaning of the word defined and technically implemented inworld by LL, the actual offer is of a relationship to the land which is significantly different.

I want you to imagine travelling across the world to reach a plot, trying to click "buy" and finding you are instead invited to visit a website for something else entirely. It happened to a lot of people when all this started up. You expect to buy one thing. After you arrive you discover you are being offered another. Now of course (after much agitating) there is some small print around, but even now the uninformed may not realise its significance. If the average naive buyer is misled, that I believe is enough.

It is an excerpt from

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/baitads-gd.htm

Confusion helps "sales".[/QUOTE]

I agree, "Confusion helps "sales", you forgot to add one additional piece of information. The confusion that is generated makes it more difficult for those of us who just want to rent out propertyas we all know that is how it has to be done. I waste a lot of time explaining, NO I cant sell land in a private estate. I would like for all of us to be on that same page so to speak.

I don't know how you put up with it. Alliez. I makes me angry just as an observer. If I had been at the sharp end of this malpractice I'd would have been grinding my teeth and banging on LL's door.

Doubtless one day the bigger landbarons will be enabled to run the servers on their own machines, take on the role of LL locally, and reprogram the servers to have the "buy" button register a landtransfer in their own database of leases, which LL does not have. Or maybe implement a new "buy lease" button. But until then this "buy" language is properly reserved to LL, if only so that we can all know without ambiguity exactly what it here means.

Not just to avoid misleading the less-knowing, but to prevent other more "law-abiding" landlords like you, Alliez, being put at a disadvantage. Though I guess it'e too late for that.

The probably-uncatchable mega-empire has been built, partially founded (at least in my opinion) on misrepresentation, confusion and product switch.

I just hate to see advantage gained through deviousness. Though I guess it's happening all around.....

Since 9 months people are happily buying, owning and selling land deeds in Dreamland, within our land ownership system. The terms and conditions associate with this have always been made clear to the buyer.

We have one great product and people vote with their feet every day by join us.

Neither the lamentations of our competitors nor the hair splitting and desperate crusade of Ellie and her various alts can change the facts: People have been, are and will be buying, owning and selling land deeds in Dreamland, within our land ownership system

You misunderstand. How may times do I have to say, Anshe. I heartily approve of themed private sims. I like your product. I think it is fine for people to have choice of various forms of landholding.

My objection is in principle, purely on the morality of your business practices in misleading selling - more in the past than now - things are improving.

My "crusade" is purely based on principle, concern for the less-knowledgeable "buyer" and for the disadvantage suffered by other landlords who play it by the book.

I never had any personal axe to grind. Personally I am at no risk of misunderstanding your product, and I have never rented out land in SL in my life. I am not envious. I grew from scratch and sold an RL business far exceeding the value of your little empire, with fifty full time employees. There is little I don't understand about entrepreneurship, and I manage without sacrificing the moral principles I here support.

The closest I have been to personal involvement in this issue was only in common with everyone else owning any land at all, when I saw genuine sellers for a while competing in the land list with a flood of your adverts suddenly injecting new land to fraudulently compete at a time when genuine owned land was hard to sell.

As for my various alts. I have only posted on this topic under two names, and the second took over from the first. Ellie in fact only came into existence here as an attempt to avoid my relentless pursuit through every thread by the infamous insulter Prokofy Neva, now thankfully gone. But for him, Ellie would never have posted a word.

Doubtless you will be pleased to hear that Prok is even now still trying to make things difficult for me in game. Put up more red bars against me right up against my property even yesterday - presumably to get me to give up and sell out. Cross him in the forums - he's an inworld enemy for life. Maybe you are the same. I think of them as separate spheres, and refuse to retaliate or argue inworld any way.

It is my opinion, Anshe, that you did mislead unknowledgeable people, particularly in the critical early phase. That you did it deliberately, with total intention, in order to push more product and make more money. Hats off - it worked superbly, despite all my remonstrations at the time and my two personal appeals to you to stop. It's simply my firm opinion, from careful observation. I may be almost alone in speaking it (thats my way) but I am certainly far from alone in thinking it.

Morality and business success are often in conflict for those ruthlessly determined to succeed. It's the pretence of innocence that gets up my nose.

I have land in Dreamland. The rules for "ownership" were made explicitly clear before I bought the parcel. The one complaint I had about the violation of zoning rules by my neighbors was taken care of immediately. These are simple observations. You make lots of accusations without any examples. Please, as a Dreamlander, I need to know why you think these things. After months of satisfactory service I need to know if AnsheChung.com is going to all of a sudden start screwing me. What has she done wrong?

Who was confused? I wasn't. My neighbors weren't. And let's not be disingenuous, "fly all the way out" to sims that have teleport hubs on almost every island? And it was such a long process that some one else bought up all the other available plots? What a load of whining. Should LL now not let people use the sell land tab who have plots that are a long way from a hub? Because if you fly out there you might lose out on a purchase somewhere else!

April, the original poster has a problem with the fact that she cannot now advertise her land through the land sales option because LL changed things. This is not due to being misinformed or not informed by Dreamland. The original poster wanted to know if LL had changed things and why.

Michael, someone had told the poster that she had been deprived by LL not just of the power to advertise her land. But actually deprived of the power to sell it by the clicking the "buy" button. That this power had existed but had been maliciously removed. Insulting motives for doing this were attributed to LL.

This is entirely false, and it was necessary for the discussion to touch on the history in order to refute what was in fact a baseless calumny against the Lindens. Selling on the button was never possible, never intended or promised to be possible, and indeed is forbidden under the terms of the agreement between the sim owner and the Lindens. The "deed" button works, but must be hit by the seller, not the buyer.

Read the thread title, Michael. Its not just about the "right to advertise their land", but about the "right to sell their land". All the difference in the world, and exactly what we are discussing.

The illegality of "bait and switch" in RL is not dependent on how much trouble the client is put to before they discover the truth. Read the RL law again:

"b) Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception"

We are not bound by such law in SL, but I put it forward as a valid guide to moral treatment of customers.

Note particularly "law violated" and "first contact or interview". It fits.

All that would have been necessary for an RL prosecution would have been to establish that there was a precise local meaning of "land sale", described in the SecondLife official documentation and manual and established by long custom, and that this transaction was falsely represented as fitting that description "in such a manner that later, on disclosure of the true facts, the purchaser may be switched from the advertised product to another." ie not the expected land ownership in the technical SL sense, but ownership instead of a right to rent from a private landlord, another equal resident.

A doddle, I would suggest, for any decent prosecutor, based not on the current improved practice, but on how it was advertised in the critical early stages. Perhaps you weren't here Michael ? Did you not see ?

Though of course, since these laws don't apply, no legal offence was committed. Just a guideline to those uncertain of the moral position.

Actually it wouldn't be bait and switch if the customer didn't bother to read the materials provided. Bait and switch is when you agree to buy "A" and the seller substitutes it with "B". It is not when you agree to buy "A" and you haven't done your research and you think "A" is really "B". So let's look at the moral position here:

First, the facts:

1 We don't know when she "bought" the land
2 We know that when I "bought" my land in Dreamland I was given all the info needed

Now the Moral Position:

1 You don't have the facts to support your accusation
2 You make the accusation anyway

I'm talking about the early days, Michael, when the claim that land in private sims could be "sold" first began. The "accusation" was made in the forums, at the time, by me and many others. The evidence is there in the archive. It is burned into many of our memories. Newbies were deliberately targeted whilst even many oldies were still confused and struggling to understand what was going on. If it all seems obvious to you now, it didn't then. Part of the current clarity is due to people like me dragging it into the light of day.

Go look in the forum archive, Michael. You will even find screen shots of the misleading advertising. My accusations have been steady, consistent, open, face to face, public, and the things I complain of are in the archive and thoroughly documented.

But it is time to move on. The only occasion we have to reactivate these old wounds is when people ignorant of the facts start posting accusations or justifications based on entirely faulty assumptions about what happened. As here.

Then I once more pull out my rusty old sword. The direct question was asked - "what has in truth been taken from us that we previously had". The answer came back "only the ability to advertise in a misleading manner via the client interface". "The thing you think you lost, you never had".

Misinformation about this history was proliferating before April and some other of us who were involved at the time started posting. The record is now set straight. The curious or doubtful can research the archive. Enough.

No, Ellie, you're not talking about "the early days" you're accusing Anshe of misleading the original poster. Again, you don't even know when she bought the land, so you don't know if it was in "the early days" or not. And you're claiming the moral high ground at the same time. Amazing. I bought my plot in Dreamland last July and I was fully aware of the limitations and conditions. When did the original poster buy the land? You don't know, but you assume she was misled.

That is NOT my accusation, Miichael. I have just reread all my postings here, and that is not even implied. You are confusing me with someone else, who did say that.

You may also be getting confused by two different misleadings, by different people at different times. Anshe's misleading is mainly historical, about whether she was selling or leasing land, and of course you are right - I cannot know when the original poster bought her land, or how she was or was not misled.

But I do know that the original poster does not understand now, in the present, the true nature of her landholding. Otherwise she could not be surprised that the "sell" button doesn't work.

Nor would she have been vulnerable to the second misleading which I do I mention, which is evidenced in the very first post:
The "I was told" sentence is entirely erroneous, and whoever told her this (obviously not Anshe) misled her very seriously.

She does not understand the nature of her landholding. She has been misled (by a person unknown) about the history.

Anshe (in my opinion) misled other people in the past about the nature of the deal, by insisting that she was "selling land", and at first encouraging lack of clarity. This was in the face of much documented contemporary criticism, and in the face of a Linden declaration that what she was doing should be called renting.

The fundamental cause of all this misunderstanding was the original stubborn insistence on using the words "land sale" inappropriately and in defiance of the Lindens. Only Anshe of all the landbarons did this. It was her invention. It seems she ordered 11 sims at one go as a huge gamble on the back of it.

In that sense anyone who still thinks they "own" this land in the normal way, because they were told long ago with very little qualification that they were "buying" and "paying tier", has been mislead by a deliberate and (in my opinion) calculated misuse of language. Whether any people with this ilusion still remain I do not know. They too may get a nasty shock when they try one day to sell automatically via the "about land" dialogue.

So, Michael, you are confused. I accuse a person unknown, of misleading the poster about the history of the land "buy" button. Much of my posting is about this.

I believe Anshe's misuse of language to have been a calculated and clever plan. It might have contributed to the original poster's misunderstanding of her position to some degree, and in earlier times definitely contributed to the confusion of many others to a much higher degree, tantamount to bait-and-switch. But I do not anywhere state that Anshe specifically misled this individual in this way.

If you think I did, show me the quote and we'll examine it. If you really think this is all worth so much bother, Michael ? I care because I watched a high-profile citizen do something I considered really bad, tried but failed to stop them, and I now refuse to have this ill compounded, by letting history be rewritten.

Why do you care, anyway, Michael ?

Is it just that I irritate you ? Do you work for Anshe ? Or what ?

Why would you insinuate that I work for Anshe? Can't I have an opinion without being connected to the person you're attacking? The reason this is important to me is that I have my house in Dreamland and I like it there. The service I've had has been very satisfactory and I was given information, before buying the parcel, about the limitations and conditions. It seemed very important here for some one who ACTUALLY has gone through the process to tell about his experiences. No I don't work for Anshe. In Real Life I work for UPS. In Second Life I have a side business on the mainland that gets me a little cash through the dwell program. I'm not even going to stoop to asking you who you work for or to go out of my way to insinuate some ulterior motive for your dislike of Anshe.

Lots and lots here. Okay, we still don't know when the poster bought the land or if any of your version of history had any effect on her decision to buy. As to the bait and switch claim read what you yourself posted here earlier:



So you went to the parcel and you were told by the seller that what they were selling was not what you thought it was. That's not bait and switch. Bait and switch is when the seller doesn't tell you and sells one thing to you while saying it's something else. Have you seen the note cards you refer to as "small print'? I have. It's not. You can't call some one uninformed if he or she didn't bother to read the information given. Again, I've been through the process and there was no attempt to mislead me. No calculated and clever plan there. Your problem seems to be that you live in the past. You agitated for something to change and now you admit it has but you still are unhappy, so you make unsubstantiated claims like "small print" and "misled". That wasn't the case when I bought my parcel months ago. Maybe it's that you think the rest of us just aren't as smart as you and are easily misled and need you to protect us from ourselves. Please.

"b) Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception"

That first viewing of the plot was secured by deception, as things used to be before so many of us demanded distribution of the notecards, which have consequently been just about adequate for some time. They now try to some extent to redress the misleading language (which was unnecessary in any case) and they now even put "buy" or "sell" in quotes, as it should be. But why create the confusion in the first place, except to take advantage, and "sell" those critical first 11 sims which achieved lift off ?

We have always seen Anshe's huge axe to grind, Michael, it towers over us all, looming large. We can now see your little one. Where's mine ? Is it possible my original motivation for my "crusade" was exactly what I say it was ? Moral outrage on behalf of the vulnerable ?

It actually is possible to feel such things without self-interest as underpinning, you know.

Again you deliberately mischaracterize the situation and denigrate the changes you yourself claim to be responsible for. Telling the buyer BEFORE they BUY what they're getting is not bait and switch. I've viewed a lot of land that claimed to be beautiful or lag free or roadside that wasn't. Where's your crusade against those people? Other island sims have "sold" land. Azure Islands used to, I don't know if they still do or not.

I don't know about "in the first place" but I do know about "now". And it's not they way you characterize things. I've bought land in Dreamland. Have you?

What axe am I grinding? Unlike you, I've given my occupation, I've said what experience I've had that gives me some understanding of the situation, and I've clearly stated that I have no other business ties with Anshe Chung other than the land I have in Dreamland. So, please, stop insinuating that I am being less than honest. Maybe you should ask the people you're crusading for if they need or want your help?

In RL law, its nothing todo with "before they buy", Michael. Read it again please. Its a question of how the first contact is secured. Surely it's exceptionally clear:

"b) Even though the true facts are subsequently made known to the buyer, the law is violated if the first contact or interview is secured by deception"

Ok, your axe is very small, merely that you would naturally enough want to be able to use the "land sale" language when you leave your Dreamland plot, as advertising it as "lease for sale" would not get you many buyers. Which is of course the whole point of what we are discussing, and why the language is worth arguing over for the Dreamland protagonists.

As for my "crusade", I didn't raise this topic, Michael. A question was asked. I saw misinformation floating about - I acted to help dispel it.

As for all your ad hominem stuff - don't bother. Not relevant. This is no longer a discussion, anyway, Michael, and others must be finding it very tedious and repetitious. We disagree, and we are even discussing different time frames. Lets leave it there.

No Michael, this resident was created 5 months ago, the land sales tab was changed prior to that. And when it was changed, if she had an older alt, she should have been informed.

Please remember, LL changed it because people were upset that they would fly out to these private sims to buy land only to encounter a barrier to directly buying.

Umm did you read the original post and the other threads started by people who bought Dreamland properties and then tried to sell.

The bottom line is that there is something called buying land on the mainland grid and this experience is differenct because your current Linden tier cannot be applied. I'm just advocating correct information. If you received correct information, then that's fine. But everytime one of these threads is started, it means someone somewhere down the line was misinformed.

I'm sorry if my advocation of informing people is somehow agains your principles. But that just seems fair to me.

Please, argue the case and don't attack the character of your opponent.

Here's the definition of ad hominem

ad hominem |?ad ?häm?n?m| adverb & adjective 1 (of an argument or reaction) arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic. • attacking an opponent’s motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain : vicious ad hominem attacks. 2 relating to or associated with a particular person : [as adv. ] the office was created ad hominem for Fenton. | [as adj. ] an ad hominem response. ORIGIN late 16th cent.: Latin, literally ‘to the person.’

I have repeatedly argued the facts of the matter. Heck I argued that we didn't have the facts to come to any real conclusion. You insinuated that I had an axe to grind and asked if I worked for Anshe Chung. Our readers can decide for themselves who engaged in the ad hominem argument.

I love how you want to "leave it there" after your last post, without me having the opportunity to respond. How noble of you to end the argument while getting in the last word. Yeah, that seems fair.

Before ending the argument I must first correct your assertion on the nature of my small axe. I knew when I bought the land that I couldn't use the regular advertising method to sell it. In fact I was fully informed BEFORE buying the land. So, I really don't have an axe here to grind or use otherwise, as tempting as that might be.

I'm sorry, you're correct. The poster thought she was able to advertise and sell her land, but probably couldn't based on the in world birth date of the avatar she used to post her complaint. If that avatar was the one used to buy the land then the poster was mistaken.
That avatar was created in July. I bought my land in Dreamland in July. Not to beat a dead horse, but as I have said before, I was fully informed of the conditions of ownership in Dreamland before I paid a single $L. I would find it odd that she wasn't also.

If the land had been purchased using another avatar and LL subsequently changed the rules who should have informed her of the change? LL or AnsheChung.com? Now I know when you download a new version of the program it lists the changes made in the update. Were those changes left out? I don't remember. It's probably safe to assume they weren't, but I want a caveat here that I don't know for certain this is the case. But if the changes were listed in the the update notes like other changes routinely are, then the poster was informed of the changes months ago.

Don't worry about this hypothesis, Michael. It didn't happen. There was no change in how the land could or not be sold. The only change was in the methods by which it could be advertised. No need to notify everybody of a reorganisation of advertising opportunities.

The "buy button" never worked. The identity of the landowner as registered on the servers was never auto-modifiable, or divisible. It always remained the single inevitable sim-owner who was alone responsible for the tier payments. No change in either of those, so nothing to notify.

I know the "buy button" never worked. I was talking about the ability to advertise the land as other land is advertised, sorry for the confusion. But I like how you sidestepped the thrust of my argument. You have repeatedly said that the poor, uninformed soul who started this thread should have been better informed, and that it was your sole reason for posting. Now, lets re-read what I wrote:



See! The original poster was informed! Because the changes to the software are listed when the updates come out! So now you can sleep snug in your bed, happy that it wasn't injustice, but just somebody not bothering to read the information provided.

This debating technique you use here, Michael, is called "straw man":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You state a position that is not mine (even saying "repeatedly" and "sole reason" and then attack it as if it was me.

No, no, no. Didn't "repeatedly" say. Wasn't even a significant reason, let alone "sole".

I came into this thread because I saw completely erroneous statements being made about changes which had not happened. I saw history being rewritten on something I was deeply involved in. Thats it. Thats all. Like the cr*p about LL having switched off a previously-functioning buy button out of envy. I'm expected to let such malignant fantasy pass in silence ? The uninformed might even read and believe it. Jeepers !

Far from complaining that the threadstarter had been mis-sold her land, didn't I say that we couldn't know ? - but that someone had certainly misinformed her about the history.

About the history, Michael. Look at her post. She had been told complete rubbish, and was seeming to believe it. Does that not prove she could "have been better informed"?

It also strongly suggests she didn't really understand her form of landholding, doesn't it?
But that is only a minor concern for me in this thread. There have been many others, and I'm getting weary of jumping about for every one..

Rewriting of history and false accusations about LL motivation brought me into this particular thread. How many times do I have to say it?

Deal with my true position please, not one invented by you to be easier to handle.