Have Lindens Removed Dreamland Citizens' Right to Sell Their Land?

Geminian when you originally "purchased your " land the method you did it was never supposed to be.

the place you have your land IS and i will say again IS a private island estate Solly "owned" by anshe chung you pay her a monthly rent tier or tax however you like to call it. she in turn then pays linden labs.

the biggest misconception is about private islands is that you can sell portions of it..
this is just not true NO ONE CAN SELL ANY SUBPORTION OF ANY ISLAND SIM.
the only way to sell a sim is to have linden labs transfer it to the new owner in it entirety

and you can sell your land to any one you like Geminian you how ever need to have anshee transfer it to the new owner.

and i will say again private island sims were never never ever ment to be sold off in parts.

In hardball terms, no, she can't sell her land to anybody. All she can do is convince someone to pay her money to tell Anshe to reclaim the parcel in order to deed it to the "buyers" group. Frankly, the "buyer" can just as well sit back and wait until the land is available because Anshe reclaimed it after Geminian got tired of paying the rent and let the lease expire. The only way "buyer" gets a better deal is if Geminian offers to release the land for less money than Anshecorp would charge them to claim it cold.

Geminian is now in the position of having to convince "buyer" to trust that she will initiate the proper proceedings with Anshecorp after they pay her the money. Or she's in the position of having to give up the land before they pay and risk not being compensated. Neither side has an enforceable contract and neither Anshecorp or LL will mediate.

Unfortunate this is.

Yes, like I said a sim is leased by an individual. LL doesn't let that person split it and actually SELL it. If they did then LL would have to try and collect the monthly sim lease from lots of individuals instead of just one...Anshe in this case.

Anshe leases the land from LL and all you do is lease it from her. Anshe should ideally provide a lease assumption program. Then you could find a 'buyer' (as you call them) to assume your lease.

Now if you have an assumable lease with Anshe then you could theoretically charge the new 'buyer' of your land a one time fee for offering a lease that might be less than what Anshe would lease it for if it reverted to her and she in turn decided to raise the lease before leasing it back out.

You really need to rethink this whole land "sale" concept. No one owns land on an island sim except LL. Everyone, even Anshe, leases it....even if the islands have been formed next to one another and called a 'continent'.

People buy, own and sell land deeds in Dreamland. Last night for example there were several sales between Dreamland residents again.

Some people also rent land in Dreamland. About 10%-15% of Dreamland residents are renters.

Lindens were aware of this since February and never voiced any objection or concerns for months. 20 sims, 20000 US$ and 100+ land owners later they suddenly removed our land sales from the FIND directory in May. This was in direct response to one lobbying campaign by some people (none of whom ever bought or rented land in Dreamland). One of these people was Hiro Queso.

It is sad what we have to put up with. But despite all this Dreamland is growing and prospering. In RL I am not as rich as some other residents, so I could not simply put up tens of thousands of US$ from RL bank account to put up rental sims. Instead I did what Linden Lab does: I allow people to buy in, to invest in their land and own their land deeds, to really be part of Dreamland. Everybody who is interested to buy in gets detailed information from us, including that it is ANSHECHUNG.COM who guarantees ownership and not Linden Lab. This model functions since 9 months now and is highly successful. Together in Dreamland we have grown Second Life by more than 60 sims

Anshe you knew perfectly well you was not supposed to be selling plots within a private estate sim, LL make it clear in every single email you have had since you started buying private estates.

When LL gave us the ability to 'deed' (and i use this not in its rl meaning, but because its the name given to the little button) plots in private estates, it was so we could share more control of plots with other residents, not so we could sell them. LL took away the ability to list as a sale not as a result of lobbying, but to correct an error. It was never intended to be there in the first place. You took advantage of an error and used it to 'sell' these plots. When LL corrected it, you start complaining they have taken away something that was not supposed to be there???

As far as finances go, you do not know what my finacial situation is, and I don't know what yours is, so how you can make a comparison baffles me. Are you now making out your some kinda pauper? rofl!! Last year you argued how your finances were so healthy and using that to your advantage. You remarked in these forums how LL found this out themselves after they accidently charged your CC with 50 squillion dollars. So which is it?

The simple fact is, LL is not letting zoning take place. The question is: why?

If they are going to add leasing tools in the future, then Anshe will have less to complain about, and I think it's quite possible that the current problem is just because they are having developer issues and poor timing.

Between February and April I talked to Ryan, Philip and other Lindens, explained how we sell land in Midge, Friesland, Midgard, Petite Gaule and Sorriesa. There was no objection whatsoever. Now is November, more than 9 months later, and no Linden ever asked me to change anything I do in Dreamland. The only concern they have is that customers should know they don't buy into their own land ownership system and responsibilities are not confused. We make this 100% clear to everybody, handing out detailed notecards and our whole process is setup so that people know they are our customer and not customer of LL.



I told Lindens several weeks before SL 1.6 patch that I was going use the deed feature to "sell" land to residents within our own land ownership system the same way we used to do in our zoned mainland sim Midge.



Two weeks after SL 1.6 patch I talked to the programmer responsible. I explained what we use this feature for and he told me that at Linden Lab they decided to leave the feature in for the time being. Then two weeks later the forum lobbying, "concerned" emails and phone calls started. As direct result of this Robin announced the removal of PI land sales from FIND and adviced me to use SLExchange.com, the forums and classifieds to advertise them. Nobody told me to stop sell land in Dreamland!



You bragged about it.



My RL finance are in order because I spend little and save where I can. But I am not rich and not able to gamble tens of thousands of US$ in some "game".

Please drop it and move on. This does not do you any favor: everybody knows your postings on this issue are self motivate!

I wouldn't blame Anshe for this, I'm sure she's covered her behind in an agreement that someone would agree to by living there. It's not her fault that the person did not read/understand them, if they had any questions I'm sure Anshe would have explained to them what she meant.
(P.S. this is a guess, I've never seen her conditions that someone would live by, or a notecard that she would give them before they live there.)

Then you need to speak to LL Anshe, as every time I have asked, I have been told they do not support the positioning of deeded estate plots as sales. As you know they give you a link to the following page everytime you order an island -

http://secondlife.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Private+Island+FAQ

Especially worth noting the "The island can only be transferred as a single parcel. It will not be possible to sell subsections of the island at any time." part. That seems pretty conclusive to me, don't you think? Add to that of the few posts they have made on this issue, none support your claims above.



Again, you need to speak to LL then.



I think we have had a million threads now pointing to where Robin made her thoughts on the matter quite clear.



Could it be called bragging? Well I certainly said some things I shouldn't have thats for sure, but not in detail, but then so did you Anshe. May I point out also this was in IM. Two things about this I would like to comment on.

Firstly, how do you expect anyone to trust you in business, when you can't keep IM to IM?

Secondly, you're very brave in doing so considering all you have said to me in IM Anshe. Maybe people should find out what you really think of them all eh? The good thing is, I fuck up sometimes and say stupid things, but I am always honest. You on the other habd have more faces than Big Ben. It will bite you in the arse one day.



Oh its just a game now? Funny how your opinions change with the wind when it suits you.



And what better person to recognise sefl motivation than you Anshe eh? And drop it? In your dreams...

People are buying, owning and selling land deeds in Dreamland every day. Some people also rent. This is all within the land ownership system created by ANSHECHUNG.COM and has nothing to do with the land ownership system of Linden Lab. Dreamland is successful, popular and growing fast.

Some of our competitors seem to have problems with that. I consider this one good sign

thanks for the infomercial. do you get paid by the post or is this a salaried position? kthxbai

woah. Sorry to interupt this thread. But you certainly didn't refer to SL as a "game" when you all were on the panel (and had your banners up and were being interviewed by RL press) at the SLCC. What has made you change your mind?

Time. After time it has become more and more serious.

Still I consider one virtual world as risky. I am fine invest my time and reinvest my earning from here, but I could not justify take my RL savings and invest.

Basically, Anshe's "land ownership" is not what is commonly understood by the term. This should be made more clear, given many people... like the very ones in this thread... don't quite understand this; they expect the rules to be the same everywhere. I'm not saying it's Anshe's fault - to a point, the buyer SHOULD beware - but she could perhaps draw more attention to that fact, as pre-emptive customer service. "Dreamland is Anshe Chung land and requires the assistance of Dreamland personel to transfer, etc etc" (Perhaps she DOES, and the original poster was inattentive. I don't know, I've never dealt with Dreamland.)

The fact that it isn't "really" land ownership bothers me surprisingly little; NONE of us, even the private sim owners, REALLY own the virtual land - LL retains title to the physical servers. Pay LL direct or pay through an intermediary, does it matter?

Ok, and content owners should draw attention to the fact that "at any point lindenlabs may accidentally delete your inventory so buying this object is a risk"

Just to clarify:

(a) All physical servers hosting sims are owned by LL.
(b) All hosted land is, in turn, owned by LL.
(c) Anshe, Hiro, and others purchase a LOT of land from LL, which run on the servers.

(d) Anshe used to be able to redistribute land and give ownership capacities to individuals in said land (we're calling it DEEDs here) [edit:] via the automated LL land sale system.
Anshe no longer has this feature available for any of her parcels of land, nor does any other owner of private islands or non-continental (non LL controlled?) land.
(f) According to Anshe, LL has no qualms with her independent subletting.
(g) According to Hiro, Anshe is a deceptive businesswoman.
According to Anshe, Hiro is a tool.
(i) As of now, though increasingly inconvenient, there are no rules against individuals or companies continuing to "DEED," as Anshe does.

Am I right?

heheh yeah you're right

though, I believe you missed

LL plans on adding subleasing functionality in the future

which is important to this whole debate, as it does show that LL recognizes and is saying they're going to do something about it.

however, what they say and do have been shown to be somewhat two different things.

The difference being, that's inherent in the very object-ness of objects, no matter where those objects are... whereas we have two species of land in SL; maingrid and private sim, and they act quite differently. However, this difference is not readily available, especially to the newbie... since Dreamland and some of the other "private continents" are large enough to not be obviously distinguishable from the main grid.

That said, I do often include a mildly jokey disclaimer about "I am not responsible if this blows up on you" on all my stuff.

And this is not helping matters.

What does that mean exactly?

Does any of this help?

And help whom? LindenLabs? Established users in SecondLife? New users?

And what am I helping them(whoever 'them' might be) to do?

Make money?
Not lose money?
Be entertained?
To innovate?
To grow as a person?
To forget their woes?
To recruit new users?

Perhaps I'm simply trying to help people who share my position and perspectives on things and therefore are likely to benefit from what I already know.

Blaze it wasn't directed at you, I quoted you in agreement.

oh heheheh

Neither Jauani

I am a happy Hiroland resident - that's all.

Alexa

AnsheChung.Com has had, and always will, cover its ass w/ double talk, inuendos, smoke screens and blatant untruths which I do believe she has convinced her self ARE true, as long as it serves her and her goals. And nothing and noone will convince her she's done anything wrong.