LL Recreating GOM is necessary and good for the community

Central to this issue with LL is Phillip and Robin have repeatedly spoken of their wanting to integrate the currency exchanges into the user interface. Both have said LL would not become involved as a currency broker. There are numerous messages from both Phillip and Robin saying this - check the Archives.

IF what GOM is saying, seems LL has changed their position.

This is not an issue of free-ness.


_/_/

Isn't the argumen you are making here the Microsoft stole Apple's GUI argument (all the while forgetting that Apple actually stole it from PARC Xerox first?)

Put another way... whether LL would or could figure out the algorithms used by GOM or not, even if they could come up with something different on their own, and I am sure they could, can't you see that that is not the point? The point is whether or not, by essentially encouraging and courting GOM for over a year, they (LL) have been privileged to code and ideas they have not dedicated resources to to this point. GOM, for its part, has had privileged access to parts of the LL structure the rest of us probably don't --- though SLBoutique and SLExchange probably have similar access, maybe even Anshe for all I know.

So, while GOM has had some benefit, LL, by pulling out the rug (or even threatening to) from GOM essentially capitalizes on other people's work effort and product. I can't count the number of posts where this community has expressed revulsion at this type of action by individual residents. Why should we view LL's actions any differently? Because they provide the servers and basic software? Not! I think they should play by the rules they have essentially encouraged us to play by within the SL world.

LL is wasting its time and resources by recreating something that is not broken...It is only "good for the community" from a limited perspective.

(((Sometimes I wonder if the "teens who are hiding out on the main grid" are actually employees at LL --- and their disguises occasionally fail so that we can see their not-yet-completely-formed brains and personalities. Such woul certainly go a long way towards explaining the inconsistencies in policy, foresight and TOS enforcement that seem evident when one compares LL actions, policies and statements over time.)))

From a company that is looking to make revenue from selling "vanity" names and by trying to minimize the time players spend online making content for them, very little would surprise me.

Anyone else catch a whiff of desperation in the air?

I see this as really the only issue right now.

Until GOM's claim that LL is "set(ting) up a competing currency exchange", and moving to "directly re-create" and " replace Gaming Open Market" is confirmed or refuted, all other discussion is meaningless to me.

I'm not yet prepared to voice support to either LL or GOM in this, since the credibility of each is called into question -- and I've always trusted the credibility of both.

BINGO!

How can anybody say, "they should have taken the options". Options are like a sports bet with a big point spread. They only have any value at all if the company is highly successful. Depending on the terms, the company does not have to go out of business for the options to be worthless. Options are only valuable if the company grows. AND, on top of that, options on a private company have no value at all unless the bus driver goes down all the right roads. The company can be wildly successful but your options expire worthless anyway because they are not marketable.

I would also say that either GOM are (a) foolish for talking out of school, lest Phillip decide that if he's going to do the time, he may as well do the crime, or (b) its part of the negotiation, because Tom and Jamie are popular and Phillip won't want to be perceived as "screwing them". Time will tell.

Buster

Because the situation as this forum is reporting it isn't a resident competing with another resident, it's the host organisation competing with a resident. That might not be an accurate reflection of the actual events, but that's clearly the precis of what is being said here.



There are 2/3 other ways of changing money already in existence. IGE and Anshe and SLEx (which might be Anshe I think) all do it too.



Absolutely no problem with this. But LL competing with residents is NOT the same as me finding what you sell, duplicating it if I can and handing it out as a freebie. We're not talking resident competition, we're talking big brother.

If I had the time, the inclination and the seed capital I could set up a competitor to GOM. I could try and undercut their rates and maybe even succeed. So could you. That's fine and healthy competition and although I'm not a total believer in free market economics in all areas in that one it's just fine and dandy (actually most places I'm opposed to it are irrelevant in SL but that's by the by).

Adding a money transfer functionality to their website is, of course, well within LL's rights. But it's not fair competition with a resident who can't put things directly on what is the core website of the entire world.

I'm sorry, I thinkyou are all jumping the gun by assuming LL has copied ideas, design, or even code from GOM.

You could look at it the other way, and say that GOM has been very lucky to have had this period of time to make money free of government competition in an area so obviously more efficiently handled by better integration with LL servers.

What is wrong with government competition ? Yes, maybe they can do it more cheaply via this closer integration. But why shouldn't we the users profit from the resulting reduced cost (and probably much greater ease of use)? To voluntarily decline from doing so would be for us all to make continual voluntary contributions to the pockets of two individuals.

They have chosen to reject a buy-out offer and fight on, as is their right. They are facing up to the competition. Isn't this good ? Can't we now expect just that innovation and exciting new thinking from GOM that every threatened entrepreneur must regularly come up with to survive? Just as we exhort every competitively threatened content developer to do?

Why is GOM to be treated so differently and protected from competition ? What LL has done would not deter me from such a development. I find the knowledge that LL may ultimately offer a buy out with real-world SL stock options a huge boost to my motivation, not the opposite.

If one doesn't believe SL has a big future, with big stock appreciation, then how can one believe that one's little SL business is so valuable ?

How is this so different from the free content situation ? Suppose somebody with time on their hands and no need for cash spends six months making a superb set of skins, and widely distributes them free to everyone. Would the few people currently making big money in this market get the same sympathy you all are now bestowing on GOM ? Would they get any offer of compensation at all ?

Are you sure some of you don't just like bashing the management on principle ?

I've been directly involved with GOM business negotiations back in the SLExch Times of Trouble and can tell you that Jamie is a very competent professional who is honest and trustworthy. From my experience, he would not be going public with this were it in violation of any agreements with LL.

_/_/

I don't know that that's necessarily the case. I don't see any reason to believe that GOM's functionality in both worlds is based on anything but tools and information available to all. It's just the GOMeisters who got up off their cans and risked time and effort making it real.

I've had two in-game deposits "fail" with GOM since I joined. That is, when I paid Zeppi via an in-game ATM, I got the game-level dialog that the transfer had taken place, but the ATM script itself apparently missed the money event.

The thing that impressed me mightily about GOM was that both incidents were reviewed and corrected by dawn the next day. THAT is customer service.

Can I expect the same responsiveness to a mishap at a Linden-controlled transfer point? But Judah, there's no need to worry. The Lindens won't miss your transfer, because they have direct access to the core game features. They can give themselves a private API for two-phased commits on money transactions, maybe run nightly audits against the money transfer history, all kinds of things to make sure that this kind of thing doesn't happen. Great for the consumer, bad for would-be competitors who don't have access to the core features.

What was the thing that stuck most in the craw of the judges reviewing Microsoft's case? For awhile, it seemed that House Gates was going to be forced to divide into two enterprises...one systems-level, and one application development group...and that Bill was going to have to choose one of the kids as his own, and send the other one out into the world with a strict enjoinder never to take another insider peek at what the other one was doing.

By "promoting" a funding service from the arena of player development to integrated feature, it seems to me that's exactly what LL is doing. And I'm immediately of two minds about it. The pure consumer in me, that wants to push buttons and have cool stuff happen with a minimum of effort and screw-everybody-who-can't-do-as-well, thinks it sounds kind of neat. The part of me that appreciates, dimly, what it takes both to put together an effort like GOM and to build the reputation which GOM currently enjoys is of the opinion that it sounds totally unfair.

Also, I suppose if LL cuts PayPal out of the loop on both deposits and withdrawals, it'll add a measure of anti-fraud protection? That's a trump card over all competitors, but at what cost to innovation? If they don't cut PayPal out, then I see no value added by the Linden system.

The issue for me is not whether LL should've offered the GOMeisters stock options, Maseratis, cash, or trips to Rio. What got offered and what got declined is none of my business.

The issue is whether LL should've gone after this at all.

-- jj

Brilliantly said Ellie. I agree with your points completely. LL should not be hamstrung on adding new features that they think are important to do in house simply because it might take away a niche currently occupied by a resident business. To expect them to not do anything that might compete with a resident effort is asking too much.

1. Are you telling me this part of the agreement, from Section 5.3

PERPETUAL, IRREVOCABLE, NON-EXCLUSIVE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO COPY, ANALYZE AND USE ANY OF YOUR CONTENT AS LINDEN MAY DEEM NECESSARY OR DESIRABLE FOR PURPOSES OF DEBUGGING, TESTING AND/OR PROVIDING SUPPORT SERVICES IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICE. YOU ALSO UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT BY SUBMITTING YOUR CONTENT . . . etc.

- is newly written? Somebody please answer me, cause this is important.

2. While we're talking about Linden competition, the issue of favoritism is connected. What are the Lindens to be? The providers of the platform? Or those who confiscate those parts they happen to like, and promote and give special benefits to those parts run by individuals they happen to like?

3. This idea that there are Linden alts on the forums acting as shills - I hadn't thought of that. I would hope that isn't true.

4. It's not that one company is going to be hurt. There are three companies already providing this service that I know of, in a competitive - with each other - fashion.

As far as I can tell, it weren't broke and it don't need fixing.

Somehow, somewhere, I believe this is not being done to streamline the process or make it better for everybody as much as it is being done to (a) control the economy rather than letting it be self-controlling and (b) skim some of the profit off of it for LL.

4. Chip says:

"LL should not be hamstrung on adding new features that they think are important to do in house simply because it might take away a niche currently occupied by a resident business. To expect them to not do anything that might compete with a resident effort is asking too much."

IF all this junk people have handed to me for the past five months is true, this is supposed to be OUR world. What they are doing now goes against all that. A niche occupied by a resident business? How about a huge sector of the economy already developed and well established by several businesses already in healthy competition with each other?

What other "niche" could they decide they should run? SLExchange, SLBoutique, Gigas? Maybe when they decide to do that, they'll invite Flipper in (not the others, just Flipper), and maybe he'll decide to accept their offer, and he'll get a nice title and position with it, too.

And what is the deal with this Developer Directory? That I can't get answers on? Who gets to be in that? And why should any of us bother making such a directory ourselves (as I read someone was going to do) when the Lindens are going to put out their OWN "official" directory full of those they have approved?

And what chance does anyone stand who ISN'T approved for that Directory? And what does it take to get approved? And why should any of us not approved for the directory (for reasons which may never be explained) even try to build our businesses? And why do my questions go unanswered on the Hotline? The only other person who asked about it received only some gobblydegook, plus an unsolicited lecture not to use the word "ingame."

What's next? Is it ours, or is it all the "government's"? A government which can seize whatever functions it desires in the name of the greater good (and any profits that come with it); a government which can reach in its long arm and select its favorites for special benefits; and a government which is never elected and never accountable to the citizens. And can eject anyone summarily who doesn't like it.

And people think this is simply a PLATFORM they provide for US? I think LL needs to go back to their own vision and stick to it if they want us to stick to it.

Or am I misunderstanding all this, and all they want to do is stick an extra button in somewhere so that we can more easily access all the GOM-type businesses, and all the SLExchange type businesses, and whatever else type business I haven't thought of yet that they might want to get involved in, and it won't hurt or take advantage of those businesses?

coco

Yes, you are misunderstanding this. Never mind that nothing has been released, it is so much easier to speculate and run away with things (not you, just this thread in general - it is staggering). Whip out the torches and pitchforks when and if this comes to pass. Until then, it is really interesting to see who is more than willing to bash Linden Lab and not even give them the benefit of the doubt, while GOM is treated like some holy entitity. There are two sides to everything - and you have only seen one of them, in a post devoid of any actual evidence of anything. To draw all these conclusions without seeing what LL has actually done is irresponsible, and honestly surprising.

Maybe there is a reason that people are more willing to just take it on fact that GOM is telling the truth. As I think of it more, I think that many have jumped to judgement. We don't know the entire story, we never will. I think that GOM is feeling wronged and are not sure what to do. It does make me wonder, but I really wish something offical would be said to help keep people from jumping the gun. I do think what Philip has said in the past is very telling, but I think most of us assumed it would pan out differently.

Gom isn't just a run of the mill niche, this isn't LL coming in and saying " hey' Chip...you can no longer make skins as we are the only ones doing it now" This, if true, is LL telling someone that they have worked hand in hand with for over a year" hey we want you to thrive...and then pulling the rug from beneath them after they have spent countless hours building GOM up to what it is.

You can bet your ass if this were skins of animations all hell would break loose on these forums. Phillip stated several times in town halls as well that they had no want to get into selling lindens primarily because some could speculate that they would make the price fluctuate in their favor....Bottom line is....when and if this comes true LL will have given themselves a black eye that won't ever heal.

Where has it ever been said that LL will force GOM to close? That they cannot continue, innovate, improve, compete? Exactly as every entrepreneur must periodically do in order to survive?

Was it "accept our offer or we ban your operation from continuing" ? Of course not. It seems to me you are all being just a little silly, particularly in view of the almost complete lack of detailed information.

Ellie, the way I see it, we have three ways to compete with LL. The first is price, but since we're talking about a free market here, it's not like we can just lower our L$ prices (like IGE, Anshe, etc.) to make people want to buy at GOM. We don't set the prices on the L$ - the market does. And yes we could lower our fees - and it's something we're looking into - but a) we're already just scraping by and b) LL can easily just make it free to trade through them.

The second is convenience and accessibility. Even if we were to pour all of our profits into marketing, there really is nothing, convenience-wise, that can beat a) a menu item right in the client and b) direct billing to users' credit cards.

And that leaves us with the third option: features. What could we add that LL won't have? Well, we have a list of things that we've been planning for a while - we're big dreamers. The frustrating part is that Tom and I sat with Philip over dinner and rhymed most of them off to him. If they don't build them first with their well-funded development department, then they could just wait to see what we build that works well and integrate *that* too. We're certainly questioning spending the effort with such slim chances of success.

I'm really just very disappointed with the way the whole thing has turned out. I'm sure we could have done things better or differently, but the fact remains, things are weird between us and Linden Lab because they want what we have, and we didn't toe the line.

Having sacrificed a big chunk of the past two years for this project, this is just a crappy way for it to end up.

(And let me fend off any claims that we're making piles of cash. This is probably unprofessional, but things are pretty buggered up anyways... To date, Tom and I have each taken a whopping $1200 out of the company. Between expenses, and losses to fraud and buggy RL-SL communications, we see a very tiny percent of the trade volume. That's our million-dollar business. After launching in November 2003, we quickly realized that it wasn't going to make the billions that we first dreamt about. Instead, it became an interesting experiment, and then grew into a labour of love. I call it a hobby business, but my wife argues that something that demands *this* much of my time is no longer a hobby. Whatever.)

Zep (Jamie)

From what he says above, apparently I am NOT misunderstanding it.

Apparently LL does NOT intend merely to stick an extra button in so that we can more easily access all the GOM-type businesses.

They intend to sell money themselves? Their own money? And do they plan to buy our Lindens from us, too?

coco

In response to Phillip L.'s thread:
Enabling a larger volume of Currency Exchange

I have posted the following message at:
Request of Phillip Linden

"Phillip - I would like you to make one more effort to come to an agreement with GOM. They were your choice from the beginning, and GOM is arguably a founding cornerstone of SL without which today's success would not be possible.

Before proceeding - show us a good faith effort and re-open the discussion with GOM.

Thank you for your serious consideration of my suggestion and I respectfully await your response.

Merwan"

_/_/

Again, you ARE STILL misunderstanding it. They are not selling currency, a la There. They are providing the transaction processing and delivery of currency between a player that wants to sell and a player that wants to buy. If someone buys 10,000L, that 10,000L is not coming from Linden Lab, it is coming from the account of a player selling it. LL is providing the secure transaction - it will be billed directly to the card on file, and they will handle exchange of the currency. Contrast that with the current GOM model, where you have to establish a Paypal account, pay money with Paypal to GOM so there is cash in your account, then pick how much currency you want to buy, then pick up your money from an in world ATM (which comes from the GOM player acccount). LL is providing direct in game access to be able to make these purchases between buyer and seller. Linden Lab is not selling L$. The currency markets (GOM, Anshe, etc..) are the direct sellers in LL's plan - individuals sell to them. So, in other words, GOM hasn't been screwed out of anything.

that is the most absurd thing to say -- to follow that thought, you are saying that legislation and progress should be frozen because some special interest group protests? I'm pretty much a free market guy, but there are countless regulations that I could name that protect people or help people that no doubt were protested by some special interest group at the time who happened to have an economic investment at stake.

this is a no brainer -- it is NOT seamless to buy SL currency. If someone already has their credit card on file with LL, there is no additional trust question to deal with. There is no paypal confusion or delay to deal with. They can simply buy currency and see it on their LL bill. It is important to note that they are not buying currency FROM LL, but through LL -- the currency actually belongs to other players.

It makes complete sense, and always has. It was an inevitable innovation on LL's part and a necessary building block for the SL economy (and to move SL away from a stipend culture). There simply are some things that NEED to be integrated into the SL client.

They are not stealing a rocket science idea. They are not competing against in world content. They are not competing against currency sellers. Much as I like GOM and what the GOM founders have done, I don't see the big deal here.

You are so off-base on these comments, it's not even funny. An existing and known partnership with LL was broken.

As I've said before, I wish Jamie and Tom would have patented their code. Then this idea would be slightly more costly than LL ever imagined it to be.

Heh heh .. woah!

"An existing and known partnership?" There was no absolutely no partnership. Not even the way Jamie described it.

Maybe you need to go look up the definition of partnership.

As for the patent, yeah, they probably still could, assuming LL hasn't already.

Read the historical forums and press releases, dear blazie boy. LL publicized GOM as the first end-user created money-reselling business; and even in their own statements and those of GOM, it's evident that they worked together to fix/create new api's to avoid fraud. The partnership was there, even if it wasn't written on paper.

Let's hope GOM gets the patent before LL does.

OK, but, what I meant is this:

1. The button lets you hook up automatically to GOM, or IGE, or Anshe.

2. The button has nothing to do with any of those, but lets you hook up to LL, which would now be in the exact same business as the above three.

I think it is (2) that would be happening?

And also, who's to say that LL couldn't just sell money it creates out of nothing? They might well want to do that when necessary in order to keep the economy at an even keel, right?

And what sort of profit would they have for it? They could just have NO profit for it, if they wanted, and so nobody else could compete. Or even just go in the hole for it, cause they wouldn't really be going in the hole, cause they are the only ones capable of creating money out of thin air.

I still would like somebody to answer whether that portion of the agreement 5.3 or whatever it was is NEW or not.

coco