LL Recreating GOM is necessary and good for the community

cocoa, at that rate, who's to say that LL staffers aren't giving 100,000L$ weekly stipends for free to their best friends right now?

they've said that they aren't going to issue new currency for sale through this system, so you either trust them or you don't.

and I still think calling a currency exchange patentable is ridiculous.

Welllll I don't think a lot of people would have ever thought of doing a virtual currency exchange before GOM did it.

Really, this is a perfect situation for a patent. They didn't just come up with the idea, they actually tried to make a business out of it.

Now, they deserve a little protection which is what this could provide.

This questions doesn't hold up to logic since they create money out of thin bytes every week, thus is the nature of the Linden.

I just read tonight's post by Philip, in which he said they weren't going to sell money they created. He made kind of a point of it, in fact.

Which sort of suggests that I am not the only person wondering this, and that it is a legitimate question to ask.

Doesn't it.

That leaves my other questions, including whether that part of the agreement 5.3 or whatever is newly added.

coco

sorry blaze, but local currencies have been around for a while... and thus people have considered creating systems to exchange those local currencies into real dollars. I know I have.

ah -- well if you hadn't read philip's posts on the topic, or the many posts pointing to it, then I would agree that it is a legitimate question

I see now it wasn't tonight's post; it was from last night.

Well, shoot me dead! I didn't notice it till Blaze pointed it out. And I thought HE was jumping the gun for yelling at people only a couple hours after it was posted, lol.

If you are suggesting, Foresetti, that I don't spend enough time reading all the forums on this site, then I will have to respectfully disagree. What with the rapidity with which this issue came up, my real life, and the fact that I actually like to play the game, well . . . some things take a while for me to notice.

coco

it's true! this week pathfinder slipped me 15k L$! i'm not lying!

heheh cocoa, nah, it's not so much you directly, but there's a lot of people doing knee-jerk reactions on this issue i feel without doing LL the service of reading their posts first. LL can be really bad when it comes to communication, but in this case I thought Philip's post was pretty clear and pretty consistent with his thoughts from months ago. He's known -- haven't we ALL known? -- that at some point they HAD to offer an easy and seamless way to buy currency from other residents?

Well, I haven't known that, cause I've only been around since February.

But why not add the part about them buying currency FROM the residents? Would that make it worse on the businesses already in existance?

It is a knee-jerk response, and LL does need to talk more about it. But this is one case where it's so big, that I can understand the knee-jerking and both of mine are jerking, too.

coco

I'll interject here that I have never bought $L either,
and one major factor is because of the time/hassle
I perceive may be involved with setting up an account
on GOM, filling out some form (probably), the incredible
lag on my system to hop from SL GUI to web browser
on my SLOW system, etc. This says nothing about the
fact that many people in-world might not know about
3rd party sites, nor that for my first week here (at least)
I was not sure I could trust GOM.

I'm fairly technical, but also a bit lazy about having to
learn a whole new process or jump through hoops...
especially if it involves something not in-world.

Of course, I don't eat steak either because I hate
the time it takes to chew... and I don't like having to
pick up a knife to cut it either... so maybe I'm just
a loon.

Gabrielle

Hmmm.. I should replied to this to while I was at the last post....
That's more hassle than cutting steak!

Gimme a one-click button on the GUI where I type in the
dollar amount I want... show me the $US equiv I'm spending
and I'm happy.

now THAT is a "no dance" solution I can eat.

Gabrielle

Compare that with the following:

1) Go to third party site.
2) Now this step varies depending on a couple of things:
a) If you are using GOM, be certain you have a Paypal account. If you don't have a Paypal account, get one.
b) Also, you must to register on GOM before continuing to place your order. Registration involves going to an in world ATM and linking your avatar.
c) Fund your GOM account with money using Paypal, e-gold, check/money order, or credit card payment (via Paypal again).
d) If you are using IGE, add the amount you want to your cart. Click checkout when ready. Fill in billing info and choose to pay with Paypal, credit card, check/money order, or Western Union.
3) Again, step varies:
a) If you used GOM, you can either click 'Pay My Avatar' to have it pay you in SL directly, or you can go to one of the GOM ATMs and withdraw funds.
b) If you are using IGE, your payment will be paid to you by IGE Wheeling, who will sign in and pay you once your order has been processed.

Now, both GOM and IGE are useful services and have their appeal to different people. However, neither is simple for a new user, and both require trust issues with a third party outside of SL. A resident being able to go in SL and simply enter the amount they want, confirm the sale, and receive their money is tremendously easier for the casual user.

Ease of use is a barrier to use of a lot of things - many shopping carts on ecommerce sites are abandoned because the site is too hard to use. Anything that makes this process easier is a benefit for all of SL - including developers who rely on sales income. More players buying currency is a good thing, and this process should not be needlessly hindered - it is a necessary evolution of SL.

I would be genuinely curious to see hard data that suggests that new users want to spend *more* USD on SL. Were I to guess, there is no such data and LL has simply assumed that this is the case.

J

When talking about replacing Paypal with direct credit card transactions, no one seems to have speculated on how things will work for the people selling L$s.

Either:

1) LL will be issuing credits to your credit card account (costly for them)

2) LL will have direct access to your bank account a la Paypal (unlikely)

3) Paypal will still be a payment option

4) All the US$s you earn will be credited towards your tier/monthly fees (no profit?)

Thoughts?

I'm divided on agreeing/disagreeing with various
points, but they are all good.




I seem to remember reading that when I signed up 2 months
ago, but I'm sure someone else has an older COPY of it, and
my memory has been known to fail quite often.




Nothing confiscated here. GOM will still exist. the SL GUI will
pull $L for sale off the GOM account to fill in-world requests.
At least that's how it sounds to me and others.
It's true less people will be visiting the GOM website directly
to buy their $L, but people will still be going there to sell.

This is a feature LL should have added to the GUI from the
beginning. I'm surprised to hear all this fuss now.




I would guess it's extremely likely. Any big company
in FL tries to control the press just the same. I would
even go so far as to say I EXPECT it is happening here.




It wasn't "broke", but it was severely crippled.
I have no idea how many clicks, how many minutes,
how many forms/fields to fill out, how many "set-up"
instructions" to read, time spent in finding ATMs, etc
etc.. is involved with buying $L on GOM since it's always
seemed like more of a hassle than I (and many) have
wanted to deal with.

But a"one-click" button with a single field for me to
type the number of $L I want IS INDEED a fix I'm
glad to see implemented.




On THIS point I can't agree with you more!
Personally, I would like to see LL give us birth, and a GUI, and that's it.
Leave ALL the government creation (or not) to us.... EVERYTHING.
If we have trouble with residents... let's form a law enforement agency.
If we transportation issues, economic issues, etc etc.. let us solve it
ourselves.

However, you are right... it does seem QUITE apparant that this is
not JUST "our" world.. but "our world which includes the Linden
Dictatorship Government. They already print money, hand out
welfare checks, handle law enforcement, create and layout
public roadway systems, etc.

Of course, they also provide nice features - rather than flying
we have telehub transport (which I see as bad for land values,
but save that for another topic). We have a place in the GUI
to set music our land, rather than requiring use of an in-world
device to set it. We have been given "view" features in the GUI
to allow us to better see where physical, scripted, particle items
are, rather than needed to build an in-world scanner.

Now they are providing a way to convert $US to $L with 1-click
through the GUI, and soon quicker, more effiecient way to seach
for and buy products.

These are all nice features to make our experience better, however
some of them I would not mind giving up at all, if it helped get
rid of the Linden Dictatorship / Government control...

Let us create our OWN governments! And live in the areas
controlled by the types of governments we agree with. Elect
(or not) our own officials, who can be held accountable.
Make and enforce our own laws.
Do you (LL) really want this to be OUR world or not?

Perhaps even just start a smaller test grid for us.... to see
how things work out. LONG LIVE THE (TRUE) METAVERSE.

Gabrielle

You do not need hard data to know that a certain segment will use something if it is made simpler for them, though I would say there is all kinds of hard data to suggest this will be true - just look at the activity of GOM and IGE. GOM and IGE are simpler, safer, and more convenient than buying currency through eBay, though it is available there as well. By bringing it out of eBay and into dedicated sites, they made it easier for users. Bringing it into the interface and directing users to that is going to get people to buy. Some users will do so because they don't feel comfortable giving up their financial information to yet another third party. Some will do so out of impulse.

Impulse purchasing will be a strong factor, especially if the money can be bought in small blocks. Businesses rely on impulse buying for a segment of their sales - it is why things are put by the cash registers in stores, and why things are featured on e-commerce sites. There is endless amounts of hard data to show that impulse buying has an impact on sales. The process of buying from third party sites right now is a barrier to impulse buying - especially GOM.

Finally, I would also say that one only has to look at the success of Sony's Station Exchange to see an example of what bringing it into the interface directly, and acting as the secure broker, can do. At it's height, There was also a great example - currency purchasing happened directly through the interface. It was simple, convenient, and I can attest to the allure it had with impulse buying - I spent thousands of dollars that I probably would not have spent if I had to jump through several hoops each time to buy the currency.

I get the impression that this will be a buyer's market only - when you click to buy currency, it will be supplied by a third party exchange (or whatever requirements they have to be a seller - I get no impression that it is direct user to user sales). Selling activity will still occur on the third party sites as they do now. LL is not buying currency - so they can't give account credits, pay out to paypal, etc. I also imagine that buying currency will be cheaper still through the third party sites - you often trade convenience for price, so the current buying and selling activity will still go on there. IGE is a bit of an unknown, though they are the stronger of the sites from a seller's perspective. It will be interesting to see.

I may be stating what's obvious to everyone else, but it seems to me that the issue is:

(a) whether all or most signficant facets of inworld content and service will be driven by developers and consumers, and not the company - perhaps not.

(b) whether the company will exercise its right to appropriate virtual material, technology, or market share from private developers - perhaps not often, but it's understandible that some people are worried.

(c) whether the company could have handled this particular issue better, thereby avoiding a division of opinion among users/developers, and an erosion of faith and a sense of "unfair competition" among some users/developers - very likely.

"C", btw, is the key - and could've determined reactions to "A" and "B".

[edited to add the phrase "reactions to"]

Apparently this is not the case (well, according to "Yvette" anyway)

Anybody remember? I'd really like to know.


I disagree. If nothing else, we have the proprietary knowledge which some say GOM should never have spilled to them at that meeting. But they did. And I think there is a lot else, but I'm too confused to explain it all; others have done a better job.


Which they should have, if they wanted to run it, instead of telling US to do it, saying the world was OURS, and encouraging and promoting GOM for doing it.

That's the problem and the shocker. Anyway, I could make the same case for practically everything else in the game, down to the clothes would be better if they had done them from the beginning. What else will they decide they should have done from the beginning?


You expect that there are Linden alts on these boards acting like shills? I sure hope not. It would be unscientific and not favorable to discerning true public opinion.


Now this I can totally understand. I would also add that no doubt more people would spend more money buying the items the content creators make if getting the extra Lindens to do so were easier.* As soon as everybody gets over the shock of the GOM story, more will start thinking of these advantages.

coco

*As I see now, reading further, that Cristiano has just pointed out and described quite well as "impulse buying."

P.S. Yvette? Did a Linden forget to use their Linden personna to post?

It's no wonder it's hard to try to keep up with this situation. I should get a gold star for even trying!!

This is truly the heart of the matter.

Considering also that it is implulse buying by newbies that is currently inhibited. Old timers have $L already.

When I first arrived, I wanted to buy a huge chunk of land that Blue Burke had for something like L$40,000 next to my first land. My first month in world, obviously I didn't have that kind of cash. Blue offered to hold the land for me while I got the money. First I tried GOM, but I don't have a paypal account, so I had to set that up. But after a few go arounds, it turns out that PayPal won't verify my bank. There are certain banks they won't deal with, and my bank is one of them. So I tried IGE. But IGE had a transaction size limit. I called them and they told me to do multiple transactions. So I did four transactions to get all the money I needed. They charged by credit card four times, but then didn't deliver the $L. A week later they told me they couldn't do the transaction because they suspect fraud becuase I created four transactions. (Even though THEY told me to do that!) Eventually they credited my credit card. Meanwhile, Blue ran out of patience and sold the land to somebody else.

OK, so now I use GOM regularaly and I love it. But for a newbie, especially one without a pay pal account, it was a barrier. I wound up buying land on the auction instead, which took a while.

I probably spent $500 less on SL than I would have in my first three months if I had been able to get $L easily.

Buster

There are precedents elsewhere, and hard data is not necessary to make a good business decision here.

One example is the cell phone add-on industry -- things like ringtones, games, etc work when you can simply buy them through the phone and have it tacked onto your monthly bill. When you have to go to Verizon or Cingular's partner website to buy it (i.e. the company that actually makes the ringtone or game), market adoption rates are much much lower.

I believe that this will end up growing the total market of currency exchange, so it is *possible * that if GOM remains a strong aggregator of L$ sellers, that GOM actually finds their business to be better off. But that is speculation -- it totally depends on two things: the actual system LL designs and implements (i.e. what angles exist for partners), and how well GOM adapts to the new situation.


One thing people have long realized on the Internet is that you need to reduce barriers to adoption. Every extra hoop that you require a user to jump through increases the drop out rate.

I have gotten several friends and friends of friends involved in SL
over the past 2 months. I'd say at least 4 or so have wanted to
buy things (skins, clothes, toys) they've run across in-world within
the first week or two. Usually one of their first questions is
"How do I get more money?". My usual first response is "Best
to get a job, but it's hard to earn money here."

If there was a button on the GUI to "buy more"... while staying
in-world, and not the hassle of 3rd party sites, I'd say THAT
would become my first response, and more sales would be made.

Okay... only 4-6 of us....
But that's out of 8 of us.

Does anyone else have info like this?

Gabrielle

anyway, I see two different issues here:

1. whether LL handled their interactions with the GOM team poorly, and possibly even used some of the harder-nosed, more unfortunate tactics you see in the software industry... and since I wasn't present at those meetings, I won't presume to judge.

2. whether LL has the right to extend the functionality of the SL client to enhance the user experience and strength of the in-world economy.

LL has said they don't want to compete with in-world content, but it is a valid question as to how they define in-world content. We should not be surprised that if they deem something as necessary for the success of their business (Linden Lab) then they will go ahead and do it.

For instance, if someone built an in-world tool that allowed for easier prim-work group rights collaboration, LL would probably welcome it onto the scene but continue working on their own integrated rights-management solution. Any kind of tool like that -- including contract/agreement solutions -- remain vulnerable to LL saying to themselves: "the lack of an integrated solution is holding back Second Life and we have to build it into the client".


So what are people here suggesting to LL? Let's say someone does build a contract/agreement system that allows people to record a virtual business handshake/signature. And let's say LL decides that they need to offer this as core functionality or multi-person ventures will never get off the ground -- because at the end of the day, the only arbitrator in SL everyone is willing to listen to is LL itself. Would you expect them not to build this system?