If you'd act instead of talk...
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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04-06-2006 23:09
From: Marker Dinova So I continue to understand that you are fighting against the will of the general population to transform SL into something that it isn't - and wasn't intended to be - just because you have hard time playing it like everyone else. Actually, you're wrong. The "general population" do not post on these forums, only a tiny percentage. Out of that tiny percentage, a tiny percentage again are those who are promoting the "cash cow" aspect of the game. I'm not sure how I can be turning SL into something it isn't - because it's nothing in the first place. It's entirely open, for the residents to direct as they wish. Sadly, the minority who come here with nothing in mind except profit are the ones who are screwing over the rest of us. Most people probably do not make a living off of a computer game, either because they don't have the talent, don't have the time, don't have the interest, or simply treat a computer game as a computer game and try and have fun here - but come up against brick walls every time they try to do anything because of those who control the economy. Lots of people who 'play the economy game' have several accounts, one for 'business purposes', and an alt or two to have fun without being bothered by others from time to time. You seriously expect me to believe that many of the people who post here aren't using alts to try and support their point of view and make it look more popular? LL's insistance on the economic aspect is killing the game. It's a fact - how many of the 170,000 people who supposedly registered to play SL log in on a daily or even weekly basis? Why is that? Because they come here, lured by the promise of free money and huge incomes, find out it's not as easy as they thought, work out that the only way to get money is to earn whilst you sleep, and give up. If SL was really meant to be economy based, then there would be more useful tools to enable people to set up business and services to make that money. Lindex as a 'cashing out' tool is not sufficient in the slightest. It's all down to the same old rubbish - you have the money, you can make more money; you don't have money, tough. Look at classifieds, for example - there is no way to measure quality, positioning is only on how much money you throw at it. I don't fall for those tricks but some do. Most popular seems to be based on running the same games as every other casino, or how much you pay people to sit on your land. Again, there is no true measure of quality, and the truly unique and delightful places that are all over the grid that make SL worth logging in to.... never get seen; so those who make them give up and just build another laggy club/casino with camping chairs or dance pads, and people who do log in find everything just the same, and give up logging in. As far as I can see, there has *never* been any reward for creativity, originality or design in game. So what is the incentive to bother? Lewis |
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Elde Eponym
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 159
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04-07-2006 01:41
From: Lewis Nerd
The "general population" do not post on these forums, only a tiny percentage.
Yet - it's OK for you to claim that 'large numbers' agree with you, but not for those to disagree with you? From: someone
Out of that tiny percentage, a tiny percentage again are those who are promoting the "cash cow" aspect of the game.
And an even tinier percentage spends their time trolling and spamming against the economic aspect of the game. From: someone
LL's insistance on the economic aspect is killing the game. It's a fact
Please provide support for this claim. From: someone
- how many of the 170,000 people who supposedly registered to play SL log in on a daily or even weekly basis?
I don't know - and niether do you. But the *fact* is that that average number of people logged in at any given time is growing. From: someone
Why is that? Because they come here, lured by the promise of free money and huge incomes, find out it's not as easy as they thought, work out that the only way to get money is to earn whilst you sleep, and give up.
Conclusion based on facts not in evidence. |
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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04-07-2006 02:44
So I put forth my opinion, which is consistent, in a calm collected manner, addressing points and backing up my opinion with a variety of points... and it's trolling and spamming?
Grow up. You don't like what I have to say because you don't like being challenged.
What other possibility can there be for less than 5% of the population to log in on a regular basis? You tell me, Einstein, as you seem to have all the answers.
Lewis
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Calix Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2005
Posts: 212
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04-07-2006 02:54
Yea!
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Games Developer - Public Relations - Support / Free Culture Advocate and Occasional Martian Saint --- Tempus Fugit Come play the hottest game in SL!!! TECH WARFARE @ Arcadia 1 (68, 154, 22) 
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Sarg Bjornson
Theme Park Designer
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 244
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04-07-2006 03:28
From: Lewis Nerd So I put forth my opinion, which is consistent, in a calm collected manner... Ok, I said I wouldn't do it anymore, but I just... can't... avoid it... Allow me: BUAHAHAHAHA!! I didn't know telling other people that you think you are better than them was considered calm and collected. It is as if you said that if you tell someone: "Excuse me, sir, may I be so bold as to suggest that you are a complete asshole", you are being polite  |
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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04-07-2006 03:44
You have a point?
Didn't think so.
Let me remind you of the purpose of this forum - it is to discuss LAND and the ECONOMY, and is open to all points of view, not just the few that make a profit and want to make more, and want to control these aspects for their own gain rather than the good of the population generally.
That is why you need people like me here, to bring a little reality back into your fantasy world of selfish capitalism. I'm going nowhere, I'm not breaking any part of the ToS, and there is nothing you can do about it.
L$100,000 from any player will, however, cause me to not post in thisparticular forum again. Capitalism is all about buying what you want. Who will be the lucky winner?
Lewis
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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04-07-2006 05:35
From: Lewis Nerd That is why you need people like me here, to bring a little reality back into your fantasy world of selfish capitalism. I'm going nowhere, I'm not breaking any part of the ToS, and there is nothing you can do about it.Lewis Summation: nyah nyah nyah 
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Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004
Come see our whole line of clothing, animations and accessories in Chaos (37, 198, 43)
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Sarg Bjornson
Theme Park Designer
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 244
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04-07-2006 06:55
From: Lewis Nerd You have a point?
Didn't think so. This is so awesome I just don't have any words for it. From: Lewis Nerd Let me remind you of the purpose of this forum - it is to discuss LAND and the ECONOMY, and is open to all points of view, not just the few that make a profit and want to make more, and want to control these aspects for their own gain rather than the good of the population generally. The good of the population... You work for the good of the population and I don't?? (oh, just answer this, please, do) I'd have no problem with a pont of view different than my own. What I have a problem with is with some guy daring to tell me that I suck, and that my style of play sucks, and that I'm harming everyone and, specially, that there should be "better" types of players than me. I didn't know Land and Economy is about that... From: Lewis Nerd That is why you need people like me here, to bring a little reality back into your fantasy world of selfish capitalism. I'm going nowhere, I'm not breaking any part of the ToS, and there is nothing you can do about it. Well, let's see, I can ignore you, but I just decided that it is much more amusing not to do so. I can insult and laugh at you, but that WOULD break the ToS. Oh, I know, I can reply from time to time and let yourself sink by your own. Please, some ResMod lock me from posting so that I discontinue my feeding activities |
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Elde Eponym
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 159
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04-07-2006 08:40
From: Lewis Nerd
So I put forth my opinion, which is consistent, in a calm collected manner, addressing points and backing up my opinion with a variety of points... and it's trolling and spamming?
The problem is - this isn't what you did. You started off with an insult - then followed it up with your opinion, followed that with a few assumptions (which you announced were facts), then posited a conclusion bases on those assumptions. From: someone
Grow up. You don't like what I have to say because you don't like being challenged.
I love to be challenged - and I eagerly await you doing so. In the meantime, I'll have to satisfy myself with answering your trivial questions. From: someone
What other possibility can there be for less than 5% of the population to log in on a regular basis? You tell me, Einstein, as you seem to have all the answers.
We don't know what percentage of the population logs in on a regular basis. Of that number on the front page - we don't know how many are daily users, weekly users, etc... etc... However, we do know that people fail to continue to log in for a wide variety of reasons. Some have left the grid as part of the natural progression of life. Others, out of anger at individuals on the grid. Others in protest against one or more changes to the grid by LL. (Take myself for example; I almost didn't last out my first hour due to performance issues - but I checked the support wiki, diagnosed the problem and stayed.) All of this is trivial and common knowledge to anyone whose been around the online world for a while. In short, there are myriad reasons why people might no longer log on - and the 'ruin' caused by the economy is but one of them. |
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Barbarra Blair
Short Person
Join date: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 588
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04-07-2006 09:25
Regardless of how Lewis says it, he has a point. If you buy Lindens and then sell them at less than a profit, you lose money. The person you sold them to could have bought them cheaper if you hadn't bought and resold, so they lost. The only one who makes money on the deal is Linden labs, who makes 3.5% on the sell and 60 cents on the buys.
I've done the math several times, and the typical variations in price (say, 300/$ to $294/$) will lose you a lot of money every time. You'd need at least a 14 Linden difference (300/$ to 286/$) just to break even.
As I've said before, the currency exchange needs a market maker, and only Linden Labs could take that role.
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--Obvious Lady
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ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
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04-07-2006 09:39
From: Martin Magpie I have been buying up lindens and you know what I see? I see myself losing more and more cash daily.
I started buying at 2.77 wanna take bets how much I have lost so far?
Cat I would say "I told ya so", but I don't want to rub it in. Dump it and put it down on your taxes as a Capital Loss. |
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ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
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04-07-2006 09:42
From: Barbarra Blair
As I've said before, the currency exchange needs a market maker, and only Linden Labs could take that role.
Not true... If GOM could be resurrected, they could become a Market Maker if they ante up enough money to make the buy/sell fluid from the onset. Nothing says we have to use LindenX to trade the currency. Its only the best marketplace for the moment when compared to IGE, eBay, or SLEX. |
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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04-07-2006 17:10
From: Lewis Nerd Actually, you're wrong.
The "general population" do not post on these forums, only a tiny percentage.
Out of that tiny percentage, a tiny percentage again are those who are promoting the "cash cow" aspect of the game.
I'm not sure how I can be turning SL into something it isn't - because it's nothing in the first place. It's entirely open, for the residents to direct as they wish. Sadly, the minority who come here with nothing in mind except profit are the ones who are screwing over the rest of us.
Most people probably do not make a living off of a computer game, either because they don't have the talent, don't have the time, don't have the interest, or simply treat a computer game as a computer game and try and have fun here - but come up against brick walls every time they try to do anything because of those who control the economy.
LL's insistance on the economic aspect is killing the game. It's a fact - how many of the 170,000 people who supposedly registered to play SL log in on a daily or even weekly basis? Why is that? Because they come here, lured by the promise of free money and huge incomes, find out it's not as easy as they thought, work out that the only way to get money is to earn whilst you sleep, and give up.
As far as I can see, there has *never* been any reward for creativity, originality or design in game. So what is the incentive to bother?
Lewis- As much as I would like to agree with you about the excessive focus on commercialism degrading the 'culture' of traditional SecondLife... (I've always disliked billboards and advertising material plastered on any available flat surface) ... but I think you're going a overboard and merely galvanizing the people on the forums against your viewpoint. Let me try offering an alternate perspective. Without the 'new commercialism' the population boom that SecondLife has been enjoying probably wouldn't have happened or would have been much less significant. Is SL "selling it's soul" for fame and profit? Perhaps. Sure, I'd much rather see an environment that was more conducive to artistic expression and merit instead of a contest to see who can lease the most land to the starry-eyed profit-hopeful t-shirt sales newbie-merchants. But it is not killing SL. It's adding to it. The economic system is a tool that can be used or mis-used. You're so focused on the negative you're ignoring the fact that even MIS-used it has benefits. SecondLife is a smaller-scale-than-RL environment for people to experiment with being an entrepeneur. Personally, I've learned more about pricing and selling my RL art through experimenting with the same in SecondLife. If I had not experimented here with it I probably would still be learning from my mistakes in RL... at a much higher personal cost. (I'm not an artist by trade, but it's a hobby that has higher costs than SL does for me) We have the freedom to choose whether or not to participate in SL's economy. For me, SL's econonic is a helpful way to lower my SecondLife costs. Some want to buy, some want to sell, some want to play the money game. Having an economic feature makes the SecondLife experience, (pardon the pun), richer. I have to address one specific point: From: Newis Nerd "As far as I can see, there has *never* been any reward for creativity, originality or design in game. So what is the incentive to bother?" Lewis- I have to ask... What RL rewards and incentives do you think SL is missing? There ARE rewards in SL for creativity, originality or design. Without them it's impossible to creating a successful business model, a successful marketing strategy, a product or service that is desired, a store front in which to present it and setting up some way to pull it all together. People that do it well get rewarded... by other players. If you're expecting compensation for your efforts from Linden Labs instead... I ask... what makes them better suited for choosing what gets rewarded and what doesn't? They've wisely retreated from developer incentives and their "LL's Picks" list on the finder. Rewards and incentives do exist. For me? Validation is a tremendously strong reward. Every day I get a few IMs-to-Email with kind words and questions about things I've built... and people, for some reason, continue to buy my stuff. Anyway, I just don't understand where your rage is coming from. If other people prefer a positive return on their investment and can provide something other people value enough to pay more for ... allowing a person to make a profit ... Why on earth do you have a problem with it? |
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Marker Dinova
I eat yellow paperclips.
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
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04-07-2006 21:22
From: Lewis Nerd Actually, you're wrong.
The "general population" do not post on these forums, only a tiny percentage.
Out of that tiny percentage, a tiny percentage again are those who are promoting the "cash cow" aspect of the game. And an even tinier percentage is actually backing up your ideas for an economy-free SL. From: someone I'm not sure how I can be turning SL into something it isn't - because it's nothing in the first place. It's entirely open, for the residents to direct as they wish. That's exactly true: SL is an open canvas. LL just provided the tools: land, building tools and economy tools. From: someone Sadly, the minority who come here with nothing in mind except profit are the ones who are screwing over the rest of us. Who is minority or majority? Unless you got some inside information here, you are only speculating. And, if we're going down that road --- judging by the posts in all the kill-the-economy type threads you start, I'd say your party is quite outnumbered. From: someone Most people probably... And maybe, most probably don't. From: someone Lots of people who 'play the economy game' have several accounts, one for 'business purposes', and an alt or two to have fun without being bothered by others from time to time. You seriously expect me to believe that many of the people who post here aren't using alts to try and support their point of view and make it look more popular? You've got a point there. But, no matter how many alts and alts of alts post here - one would expect those who support your POV at least to speak up from time to time... I mean... you don't even post with one of your alts. From: someone LL's insistance on the economic aspect is killing the game. The game? or your game? From: someone It's a fact - how many of the 170,000 people who supposedly registered to play SL log in on a daily or even weekly basis? I don't know, honestly. Do you? From: someone ...they come here, lured by the promise of free money and huge incomes, find out it's not as easy as they thought, work out that the only way to get money is to earn whilst you sleep, and give up. Well, SL, like any service/product, simply can't appeal to everybody. It just can't. From: someone If SL was really meant to be economy based, then there would be more useful tools to enable people to set up business and services to make that money. OMG!!! OMG!!! you're.... No... you can't be. .... ..... Oh Lord... that sounded like something constructive. Please, please tell me it was constructive.. From: someone Lindex as a 'cashing out' tool is not sufficient in the slightest. LINDEX is a trade tool. Let me tell you something. Trade is unstoppable. if it's not through LINDEX, it will be some other way. No MMORPG has been able to stop trading. Actually, the only way to do so is to eliminate the economy altogether. From: someone It's all down to the same old rubbish - you have the money, you can make more money; you don't have money, tough. Look at classifieds, for example - there is no way to measure quality, positioning is only on how much money you throw at it. I don't fall for those tricks but some do. Most popular seems to be based on running the same games as every other casino, or how much you pay people to sit on your land. Again, there is no true measure of quality, and the truly unique and delightful places that are all over the grid that make SL worth logging in to.... never get seen; so those who make them give up and just build another laggy club/casino with camping chairs or dance pads, and people who do log in find everything just the same, and give up logging in. I agree with you. Really. But should the solution really be eliminate the economy. By the way, Lewis. I'm one of the persons who came in after the economic promises. The possibility to do so seemed so cool to me. Not that it was going to be a living, but it'd be nice to have the extra cash. I haven't achieved such goal, but I'm playing along and having very good times with friends. Haven't stumbled onto the brick wall you mention somewhere else in your post.
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The difference between you and me = me - you. The difference between me and you = you - me. add them up and we have 2The 2difference 2between 2me 2and 2you = 0 2(The difference between me and you) = 0 The difference between me and you = 0/2 The difference between me and you = 0 I never thought we were so similar 
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Selene Gregoire
Eyes of the Wolf
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 681
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04-07-2006 21:46
From: Lewis Nerd As far as I can see, there has *never* been any reward for creativity, originality or design in game. So what is the incentive to bother?
Lewis Reward for creativity, originality or design... well let's see... 1) the satisifaction you get from building something and building it well or better than the other guy, 2) the satisfaction you get from coming up with an idea no one else has done, 3) the satisfaction of designing something and designing it well or better than the other guy, 4) the enjoyment you get from doing something that makes you happy. The incentives? Read 1 through 4 again. I could have listed much more than this, but, I figure if you can't look past the tip of the iceberg then maybe you deserve to be another Titanic. Drunk capitan, poor hull design and all. Lewis, you'd be far better off doing something rather than spending so much time posting on the forums bitching. Just think of all the time you have spent here that you could have been spending actually doing something constructive in-world. Even I am not making any money off of SL but you don't see me here bitching about it everyday. Rather, I am in-world working on projects and helping the JEVN users when they have a problem. Yes, I am telling you, quit your bitching and do something constructive!!
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"Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you." "In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song." Kahlil Gibran 
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Elde Eponym
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 159
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04-07-2006 22:56
From: Barbarra Blair
Regardless of how Lewis says it, he has a point. If you buy Lindens and then sell them at less than a profit, you lose money. The person you sold them to could have bought them cheaper if you hadn't bought and resold, so they lost. The only one who makes money on the deal is Linden labs, who makes 3.5% on the sell and 60 cents on the buys.
I've done the math several times, and the typical variations in price (say, 300/$ to $294/$) will lose you a lot of money every time. You'd need at least a 14 Linden difference (300/$ to 286/$) just to break even.
And? The Lindex isn't a traditional currency trading market. It isn't a profit center for residents. It's way for those with excess $L to sell them, and those with a lack of $L to buy them. |
