Censorship going a little TOO far?

Earlier today was a post from a suposed newbie who says
they were 'scammed' by a prominent land holder.

Of course, from what I read there was no solid "proof",
but specific evidence was given and could be tracked down.

Supposedly there is a forum policy on "no naming names" ?
Which is beyond rediculous.

Personally, I've seen/read a lot of bashing going on in the
forums about this one specific land holder, but they've always
managed to show their side, and I've actually not seen
any wrong doing myself, and so have a feeling most of the
complaints are coming from people who've been out
smarted or out thought or out biz'd by a very smart
and saavy person.... whether you personally like Bill Gates
or not, I think we all have to admit he's managed to
put himself on top and stay there.

However, I check the forums now.. and the message is
gone!? Am i missing it? Did it get moved? or did it flat
out get deleted/censored???

If it IS deleted, I think we should ALL be outraged!

There is definately a line ... where we should not want to
bash people or make up lies, but I was VERY interested
in hearing how that thread was going to turn out!
If some people are doing biz like it sounded, then
it would be nice to let others be warned!

Was this person really scammed or not?

Should we (I) trust this land holder or not?

If we do not have free speech to be able to publicly
voice complaint about other residents when they do
bad things there is a serious problem!

Where is our "Consumer Reports" ??

Right now I'm feeling there was probably some kind
of wool pulled over on this person, which makes me
feel bad about this land owner for the first time.

If the thread is deleted, then I do not get to hear THEIR
side of things! Perhaps the story was wrong? perhaps
it was exaggerated, or the newbie didn't know they
really DID have more control than they thought?!

What is the LL response to this??

Gabrielle

If there's no proof, it's just hearsay, hence libel (or is that slander? I can't remember), and hence, not good for the forums.



"Gabrielle Assia beats babies before devouring them whole."

See why it's bad to name names?





Probably. Jeska deletes threads during her coffee breaks.



Why? Threads get deleted/moved/annihilated every day on this forum. Furthermore, the ratio of threads that live to threads that die are much higher on these forums than in other game forums.



It would have turned into every other thread on here; mindless hyperbole, broad speculation, baseless attacks on character, various non-sequitors, and maybe a dick joke or two.



Does it matter? If you're interested, contact the parties involved.



The sheer preponderance of her existance in SL would say yes.



You have no free speech at all on these forums, it's a corporate tool.



User-run and dead, most likely.




Perhaps you could ask them and find out in-world?



"This thread has outlived its arguable usefulness and as such will be closed. Please refrain from personally attacking each other on these forums."


LF

I think maybe there is a genuine problem developing here. There may be just the hint of a double standard. The rules about naming people critically are clearly meant for the protection of individuals. Less clearly intended, or logically applicable to, substantial organisations.

And yet two different sorts of organisation seem to be treated differently with regard to forum protection via this rule.

Type 1 organisation : Has a name, by which it is normally described, which is NOT the name of an SL avatar. eg GOM.

Type 2 organisation : Has a name which IS the name of a participating SL avatar. eg You-know-who.

Type 1 organisations don't seem to get the protection of this rule.
Type 2 do, ie get protected the same way as individuals.

We can see how easily this interpretation can be slipped into, by default. But of course a type 2 organisation can be far bigger than a type 1, and more powerful.

I really think that this difficult question does need some discussion and review a little higher up the linden "tree".

Otherwise the moral is clear. Any new organisation should be a Type 2. By naming itself simply with the name of a lead avatar (or even an alt) it can avail itself of all the protections meant for individuals, and have forum criticism stifled, in a way that with a different naming policy it can not.

Up to now offending threads seem mostly to have been simply brought to a stop, but now they are beginning to disappear in their entirety. This is a bit more serious, and makes it rather more urgent that we get some clarification on what exactly the rule is intended to protect.

It's been deleted, poof, gone.

What AnsheCorp wants, AnsheCorp gets. What AnsheCorp doesn't like in the forums - such as critique - doesn't persist. What AnsheCorp likes in the world - such as telehubs - persists.

Does Linden Lab has absolute right to control what happens in their domain? Absolutely, unequivocally.

Can Linden Lab consistently assert that they are fair, treat all customers equally, and are genuinely interested in the principles that they wave continually? Nope. Their facade has now effectively crumbled.

As someone once said, "Their world, your imagination; your labor, their profit; their justice, your loss; your intellectual property, their posession; your truth, their propoganda". Wouldn't that make a catchy marketing slogan?

Someone dared complain about a land transaction by LL's "numba one customa" so the deletion was predictable, but wrong on LL's part.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread go away too.

Absofreakinlutely...U just said much better, EXACTLY what I wanted to.

I don't buy into your conspiracy theory. While LL can be inconsistent in their application of forum discipline, it seems pretty clear to me that the inconsistency is due to time and attention and the inherant gray-ness of judgement calls, not unfair standards.

The rules of the forum are pretty clear. That post broke the rules. If someone had make that post about you or me or someone else, jeska would have taken it down. Anshe has been criticized and argued with in the past and the posts have stood.

some people enjoy playing the victim, but I wouldn't have thought it of you Introvert

No - this is not a demonstration of the power of one individual. It is not proof of genuinely biassed moderating, which is normally ok. Not perfect, but its a tedious , difficult, thankless job..

I just think there is a problem as between businesses named for an individual, and businesses not.

You can see how it happens. In one case a resident appears to be being named. In the other not. Though in fact there is no difference. It just needs some thinking through.

And I must say I prefer early thread locking to late thread removal.

In the case of this particular missing thread, my personal conclusion was that the complaint was exaggerated and largely groundless. For a newbie to frame the result of her own lack of care and/or knowledge as a general plea to boycott her seller was way over the top, and beyond her knowledge to judge fairly. She seemed to think that terraforming had been maliciously disabled somehow. A rude and arrogant tone probably contributed to the lack of response to her complaints, which was her other big beef. This was not a tenant, but a buyer. Of a perfectly nice plot. If she didn't like the way it looked, why did she buy it ? Terraforming was at max, yes. But a simple question - "why the pools? - I can remove them?" would have avoided the difficulty.

There was little sign she was genuinely seeking advice. She didn't return to the thread to post for clarification. Not that I saw. Nor was the plot set for sale. It was being carefully built on. I thought it very desirable. I saw the terraform-maxing as a good way of preserving the local atmosphere, even if inadvertently. Lovely "low-lying south-sea fantasy island" effect. Great surface textures.

I do wish sometimes that there was a bit less blind prejudice against individuals. If someone does indeed engage in dubious practices, it is much harder to bring them to task if everyone keeps crying wolf all the time when they are not to blame.

Censorship applies to people being able to express their point of view, you have been allowed to express yours, haven't you?

On the other hand, when you openly accuse someone of wrongdoing, especially using the strong terms that were used, that is not expressing an opinion, that borders on libel.

We throw around terms like 'freedom of speech' when it is convenient, but remember that both parties have rights, not only the accuser. Since when is someone guilty until proven innocent?

If the buyer has such a strong case and is able to prove fraud was committed, she should have gone to the authorities (Lindens), not posted her case publicy as her actions did not or will not solve anything.

I'm sorry, Anshe Chung does not get the same pass as Aimee Weber. The Business is named ANSHE CHUNG. Anshe shouldn't have branded her business with her name if she didn't want people talking shit about Anshe Chung. She could have used Dreamland for everything but she choose Anshe Chung, that bit of ego is costly. I think it is insane and unfair to customers and residents that no one can say anything about the business Anshe Chung, beacuse it is named after a fakeass avatar Anshe Chung. The logic is really lacking in anyone who can't see that Anshe Chung is a business not just a "person", and since it has been admitted more than once that the avatar is controlled by two people, "Anshe" and "Anshe's husband", the avatar is more of a business icon than a personal use avatar. No free pass.

If you can't speak freely on these forums, you can speak freely on SLUniverse forums.

Hi Ellie. I once remember learning about a case in which a business owner, although comprised of one individual, attempted to sue another entity, as an individual, for slander or some such thing. In that case, the court deemed that the individual could not sue because as a business entity, he was acting as a public official, and therefor open game.

There may be an inaliable difference in this forum scenario, but I can see where an argument can be made for a distinction between an individual and a business, where that particular individual and business may in fact be one and the same.

Do you think this might be applicable to this case?

I'm sorry that I came off sounding like a victim or promulgating a conspiracy as that was certainly not my intent.

There have been assertions and agreements that AnsheCorp was not a natual person but a corporate service and ought not be treated differentlty than GOM, IGE, ATI, SLExchange, Snapzilla, etc. have been, whereby critique of those services have not been excised. Furthermore, a representative of AnsheCorp has noted often on these forums that AnsheCorp is indeed not one player but a collection of players, thus bolstering the assertion that AnsheCorp is not a natural person.

Apparently the moderator disagrees and is the ultimate authority on the matter.

well i happen to agree with ya'll who argue that if GOM is fair game to talk about, AnsheCorp is also fair game. Posters will need to be smart and clarify that they are talking about the company, not the person.

hopefully jeska will read your posts and take these thoughts into consideration.

Either we can or cannot post about businesses (Jeska, care to clarify?). Naming your business after yourself should not entitle you to a free pass.

As of now, yes.... we'll see if this post lives or not.



If Pres Bush, Bill Gates, the people in the scandal at Enron,
the Mayor of Louisianna, the "SUSPECTED" child molester
in your neighborhood are even thought to have done
something bad, there is a story about it in the local
media where names are named!

What would you think if Pres Bush did something (right
or wrong) someone viewed it as wrong, and posted
a story about it, and before it was printed the story
was deleted?

What about the same thing for Microsoft? Someone
posts a story about how they felt M$ took advantage
of them, but after 24 hours the story suddenly vanished!

Okay.. you're right. We should not allow ANY of our
real world media to name names or tell what companies
even MIGHT be doing wrong things. It's much better
no one knows who is doing what.. SL forum policy
is correct and the rest of the real world media needs
to fall in line!



Do you really believe that informing the public about possible
problems never gets anything done?? It's the informing
of the public about certain things that GETS actions done!

If we never informed the public about the southern border
problem in the US, then would things be getting done now?

If things are written that are untrue, it's wil come out
when the other person says their side. So far with ALL
the anti-this-land-owner posts... I've always been
impressed with their reply posts, and so far have thought
this land owner was probably doing the right thing for
biz... and being picked on.

But that is the price to pay. M$ is picked on ALL the time
whether right or wrong. But we are not censored from
saying Microsoft did this or that... if it IS libel, then punish
the person makes up these lies, but if it's not, then let
the words stand.


Gabrielle

I just posted a Hotline Question asking for clarification on this exact issue. I am curious to see the response as it is something I've wondered about a great deal as SL has evolved.

Hi, This is my first post, but given what I am seeing here...

I was there when the girl bought the land. AnsheChung.Com was selling an 2048 square meter 'island', surrounded by water. The price per meter was high as these things go for 'islands' are worth a lot. The island was completely covered with those florwering low lying trees to such an extent that walking over the island you could not see the ground through the trees.

My friend had just bought some lindens for the express purpose of buying an island like she thought this one was. She was very excited and did not know about terraforming limits. She trusted AnsheChung.Com precisely because they seem to be the only land sellers in SL, so they must be good and reputable firm, right? My SO had bought an 'island' similar to this one also from AnsheChung.com and we both have been very happy with it. My friend also loved it and wanted one like it too. She bought the island.

She then cleared some of the island for the purpose of building her dream get-away-from-it-all house. She was extremely upset to learn that the 'land' wasn't land at all, most of the island was underwater. Tiny hillocks and some small strips of 'land' was all that showed above the ocean and those only make up about half the plot. It wasn't an island at all, it is more like a swamp.

We talked about contacting AnsheChung.Com. and seeing what could be done. She tried IMing the principles. They do not accept IMs when they are offline. She tried anyway. I went to the AnsheChung.Com website myself, looking for contact info, no e-mail or other contact info was there.

I tried covering the island in flat squares, didn't turn out too good. We talked about sinking it and her putting in a boat, seemed like a waste paying so much for swampland/water though. We talked about a skyhouse, again, what a waste. Everthing we tried just made the dissappointment worse for her.

It was me that mentioned the forums. Maybe someone there could help. Neither of us knew the rules or had ever been. It has been several days since I last saw her, apparently she came here and posted, angry and upset and 'violated' one of the rules? Now I am worried she could get banned?! (Can she?)

She is new to computers, has trouble typing still, and types very slowly. It is hard for her to express herself well still online. She feels scammed paying top 'dollar' for swampland by the biggest landseller in SL who she can't even contact. Is she to be villianized for this?

I came here after hearing just this morning of the post and the controversy. I have written what I know to be the truth of the matter to the best of my ability. I was there.

Personally I think it was a mistake, if we could have talked to the principle of anshechung.com in a timely manner I feel it in my heart that my friend could have worked something out.

Thank you for caring enough to 'hear' us.
Candy

Don't worry Candy. Your friend would have to receive several warnings before she would be banned.

You can read the forum policies about warnings and bannings here:
/3/ae/50540/1.html

Well I can completely understand why new residents think they are being scammed there is really very little in SL to properly educate them on buying land and the pitfalls or renting, or buying land you dont really own.


This...

http://secondlife.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Land+FAQ


is just about useless in the current land selling market.



We need a class about land pruchasing and rentals in SL. Any Volunteers to teach?

Thank you Pendari, I went to the link and read the 'rules'. Takes care of that worry. I still feel bad because I was there and didn't notice in time, couldn't help my friend with this trouble. I just wish they would come out and look at the place and talk to her about it.

I couldn't login for the last three days with computer trouble but it looks like other people have tried to cover up the water and swampy looking land with prims too. I agree with that one poster, it is a lovely spot but no usable land means laying down a floor of prims for the plot. The other islands in the area upon very close inspection do not seem to suffer (at least not nearly this badly) from the same issue. I could see buying it at a reduced price, but it wasn't what she was looking for at all, and to us, given the low lying bushes hiding the surface, that it was being misrepresented. That truely is the center of the matter right there. I feel my friend got carried away with her upset over that when she wrote her post. And that could be simple mistake on their part, not maliciousness.

I have thought about doing classes in the past. Unfortunately, anyone who is a land dealer and/or a land lord runs the risk of being accused of doing it for spurious reasons.

I could do it, I don't sell or rent land...

A representative of AnsheCorp has often said that their expertise in the field is a substantial part of the value that land brokers bring to their field and that part of that value is in helping the consumer make an educated choice.

This is not to say that a land broker ought show all their cards as they capitalize on some asymmetry of expertise. That's called business. Contrariwise, a merchant of good measure will offer some education to their customers or risk being viewed by their customers as exploitative.

In this particular case was the customer "exploited" in their ignorance by the broker? We don't know. Did the customer *feel* exploited? Certainly. Had the broker educated the customer better the customer would have been much less likely to feel exploited. Should we be doing the work for the brokers that they assert is part of their service? I don't think so.

I'm going to go schedule a running of Land Ownership 101 right now - probably this evening.

Classes are a great idea, how do you set that up so the people that need it most are the ones getting the information?

I know when I started just over a month ago I just wandered around looking at stuff. Some other new person told me to go buy first land right away because I was only eligible for it for 30 days after starting (Not true!), so I did. I was so new I didn't even know the people in the welcome area were availible to talk to me and help me! I just wandered around looking at stuff. Actually I have yet to goto, hear of, see anyone offering advice or help outside of random people I meet wandering around. I have just recently learned of Live Help! But I was learning things all that time, mostly the hard way, and this land thing was for my friend, one very hardway lesson to learn.

I have a feeling that it is the people that have been around a while that seek information out. I know from my own experience that I just wanted to go have fun and not study, goto classes or anything like that for my first 2-3 weeks of being in Second Life.

After this incident with my friend, I would dearly love to attend some sort of class or just read a paper about buying and selling, land. If we could have known that the land could not be terraformed more than the seller (or agent of the seller) had already set it, and known to look UNDER the bushes to check and see if it was actually LAND under there... We both would be a lot happier today.