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End Stipends Now

Star Sleestak
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2006
Posts: 228
06-18-2006 01:05
From: Jonas Pierterson
I still think new players on basic should get 250 lindens and a 5 week stipend of 50l/week upon verification of a credit card number.


I do too. Anyone who won't pony up a credit card certainly is not going to buy any L$.
Rock Ramona
Registered User
Join date: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 4
Hey,get a Second Life!!!
06-21-2006 12:03
I am one of the few people that really love it when Second Life goes down.Gives me a chance to come see how the 20,or so people that live in the forum posts are doing,and thankfully,you guys are as crazy as ever!!:)You go on and on with all your numbers,all your figuringand all of your SPECULATION....yes...I said it.You can sit here and talk and speculate all you want,but you will never have any solid numbers.This is a virtual world provided by a private company,there is no true economy that will ever be figured out by any of you,so stop wasting time here and come play with the rest of us...ooooo he said play.You will never be able to PROJECT what people do here,because the people I know do the crazy fun things that no one could ever figure out.Ive bought land for 18m and for 5m,I dont look at this and read that and study this,I buy because I want.You guys sit in here talking about Communism and Capitalism and blah blah blah blah blahHow can you figure out an economy when you have people that have fun in game just buying lindens so that they can give newbies clothes and things to get started with,or people that own entire sims and clubs that operate at a total loss just so they can watch people smile and have a good time.Or the games big names that have events and just give their wares away to people in a trivia contest...I really think you guys should dust yourselves off,and come to the game to enjoy the craziness,the weirdness,the great love and friendliness that exists in this wonderful place called Second Life..and leave the specualation and the non existant economy you all cream over ,and come play with the rest of us...come on now,put down the Kool Aid and come with me,I have big hugs for each of you :))
Svar Beckersted
Registered User
Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 783
06-21-2006 12:55
From: Rock Ramona
I am one of the few people that really love it when Second Life goes down.Gives me a chance to come see how the 20,or so people that live in the forum posts are doing,and thankfully,you guys are as crazy as ever!!:)You go on and on with all your numbers,all your figuringand all of your SPECULATION....yes...I said it.You can sit here and talk and speculate all you want,but you will never have any solid numbers.This is a virtual world provided by a private company,there is no true economy that will ever be figured out by any of you,so stop wasting time here and come play with the rest of us...ooooo he said play.You will never be able to PROJECT what people do here,because the people I know do the crazy fun things that no one could ever figure out.Ive bought land for 18m and for 5m,I dont look at this and read that and study this,I buy because I want.You guys sit in here talking about Communism and Capitalism and blah blah blah blah blahHow can you figure out an economy when you have people that have fun in game just buying lindens so that they can give newbies clothes and things to get started with,or people that own entire sims and clubs that operate at a total loss just so they can watch people smile and have a good time.Or the games big names that have events and just give their wares away to people in a trivia contest...I really think you guys should dust yourselves off,and come to the game to enjoy the craziness,the weirdness,the great love and friendliness that exists in this wonderful place called Second Life..and leave the specualation and the non existant economy you all cream over ,and come play with the rest of us...come on now,put down the Kool Aid and come with me,I have big hugs for each of you :))



I like your atitude but duck you might be jumped on by some of these forum junkies. I'm not one of them as I spend 10 hours per day ingame and have fun just like you.
Haravikk Mistral
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2005
Posts: 2,482
06-21-2006 15:42
From: Rathe Underthorn
Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!

This is Second Life, not First Life, it's supposed to be a game, so let's just keep it fun and implement one of the many sensible balancing measures that have been suggested so that we can keep stipends. I pay to have a premium account, but I don't use the land allowance, I EXPECT to get a stipend, as there's no other reason to become a premium user otherwise, so really premium stipends should be untouchable, as I am paying for it.
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Hunter Parks
Mr. Morgan
Join date: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 53
06-24-2006 19:55
From: Rock Ramona
I am one of the few people that really love it when Second Life goes down.Gives me a chance to come see how the 20,or so people that live in the forum posts are doing,and thankfully,you guys are as crazy as ever!!:)You go on and on with all your numbers,all your figuringand all of your SPECULATION....yes...I said it.You can sit here and talk and speculate all you want,but you will never have any solid numbers.This is a virtual world provided by a private company,there is no true economy that will ever be figured out by any of you,so stop wasting time here and come play with the rest of us...ooooo he said play.You will never be able to PROJECT what people do here,because the people I know do the crazy fun things that no one could ever figure out.Ive bought land for 18m and for 5m,I dont look at this and read that and study this,I buy because I want.You guys sit in here talking about Communism and Capitalism and blah blah blah blah blahHow can you figure out an economy when you have people that have fun in game just buying lindens so that they can give newbies clothes and things to get started with,or people that own entire sims and clubs that operate at a total loss just so they can watch people smile and have a good time.Or the games big names that have events and just give their wares away to people in a trivia contest...I really think you guys should dust yourselves off,and come to the game to enjoy the craziness,the weirdness,the great love and friendliness that exists in this wonderful place called Second Life..and leave the specualation and the non existant economy you all cream over ,and come play with the rest of us...come on now,put down the Kool Aid and come with me,I have big hugs for each of you :))


Too late Rock...you've been infected and have just unknowingly joined us forum junkies!;)
Congratulations! You have attained the rank of Private First Class.

-Hunter
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Rhiannon Turner
Registered User
Join date: 5 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
09-04-2006 04:16
From: Rathe Underthorn
I believe in a stable economy for the overall stability and growth of Second Life. If Second Life is to be more than a game then it must provide an environment that supports creativity and rewards innovation.

History has proven that in stable and flourishing economies innovation excels and communities prosper. More arts, more ideas, more culture, and higher standards of living. Whereas it is quite the opposite in unstable economies with poorer standards of living. Less arts, less entertainment, poorer education, and less innovation.

That being said, I have put my money where my mouth is. Every Tuesday I receive L$500 in the form of a free stipend. This stipend is the number one significant cause of the devaluation of the L$ as a currency with disasterous effects on the economy causing rampant inflation. I have removed one year of stipend, or L$26,000 from the Second Life economy by publishing a classified ad in the amount of L$26,000 to spread the word of the negative impact stipends have on the stabilization of Second Life as a platform.

Please join me in spreading the message by adding your own classified ad or collaborating on higher ranking ones. Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!



I am not even going to read this whole thread, the first page brought my blood to a nice even boil. You are an elitist snob, I use SL for my entertainment, the same way I use WoW and Eve. Not all of us who play can afford your jacked up prices. The problem with the Linden is not stipends its vendors over charging for garbage work.

SL vendors should take a lesson from June Dion at BareRose. She has consistently charged under 200l for very nice clothing and costumes since the day she opened her store. She now owns her own island that is constantly packed with people. It is the first place I go when my stipend comes in and I spend 90% of my money there.

End stipends. The only thing that is going to do is drive people like me who have a FIRST LIFE with bills and expenses away from this game.

If your in SL trying to make a career out of your weak photoshop skills, then your here for the wrong reasons and YOU are the problem. Try charging 200l for that shape you made instead of 600 or 150l for that clothing set. See how fast it sells.

End Stipends and watch your sales plummet as the people who rely on that to exist in SL stop buying your junk.

I had to close my premium account due to a move and lost all but the pitiful 50l stipend durign the move and you know what happened? I bought nothing, absoultely nothing. I visited all the freebie locations and grabbed up as much freebie stuff as I could find, picked out the best of it and made my own outfits along with the clothes I had purchased and lived off that. I dont NEED to buy ANYTHING in SL, I choose to buy it when my stipend comes in and I will make sure to NOT purchase anything from any of the posters here who are supporting removing it from this point on. There is your lesson in consumer dissatisfaction. I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way.
Lina Pussycat
Texture WizKid
Join date: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
Ok...
09-04-2006 05:13
I do find the audasity of the people claiming end stipends to be a bit wearing over time. Stipends are not and never were an Economic problem. You can try to push that all you want but the turth remains that it is not the problem. Lets actually look at what happened here. Back somewhere a little under a year ago Gom was shut down and LindEx came to be. This was when we saw the first drop in L value. You had people at first having to sell with market buy orders and this started a residual drop in the L value over time.

An announcement was made that LL would be able to Sell L on lindex this caused more of a panic and we saw the L fall again but Limit sells where introduced. Moves were later made to cut the basic Stipend for new signups and the signup bonus. We then saw a rise in the L value but this wasnt due to a cut in the stipends nor money coming into SL this was simply due to the fact that the people screaming finally got their way a little and it restored some hope in the Lindex. We saw a rise and still LL decided to cut the premium stipend for new signups to 400L a week which was uneccssary. Again there was a rise due to restored hope. We then saw the announcment earlier this week about the changes and saw a slight dip in Lindex again.

Now back a year ago when i first joined SL well a bit over a year. We got alot more L per week. I at one point was getting close to 1K a week due to ratings alone from my stipend + ratings bonus. When GOM was still intact the L value was higher with more L coming in per person. We also have a small population boom now. Removal of the stipends would lead to people being forced to sheerly buy L and unless LL decideds to cut the cost of the premium accounts in half which would make premiums useless anyways and add 2 512 sq meter tiers there isnt really a compensation.

See the argument if you just have a premium account for the stipend why not buy L instead also simply put doesnt work. If they put the full 10 towards buying L mabye but if you take into account that 5 is actually all that is put toward the stipend then you have this at the current rate. 1310L > 5 usd vs 1600 - 2000L for 5 usd+ the right to own some land for 5 more. I agree though if simply using premium account for the stipend your better off buying the L if you dont plan to at least use the 512 square meters at some point.

The fact still remains those that want some land and money the stipend works for and it also is a help to the content developers. They need to sell their products to make a profit in L to begin with. If people are going to be forced to buy all their L they will have less L to spend. I for one could only put 5 USD in to buy L a month and i already would be paying (if they cut it down to 5 for premiums) 85 usd a month. I currently pay 95 usd for 2 premium accounts both of which have land on them. Now if they cut it down as i currently get about 4k a month i'd be having to pay 14.64 usd (actually 14.641 but lol yeah...) for 4k vs 10 usd for 4k. I'd be at a loss there and would have less L to spend on things which i do spend the majority of my stipends at stores.

If i didnt have that i'd be stuck paying about 5 bucks more for the same thing im recieving now or i could pay the same and be skimpped out about 1300L. The stipends are the life blood of the consumer industry inside SL and without it the content developers would likely see a large cut in Sales and then would complain that they arnt making sales anymore.
Chastity Sin
Homeless
Join date: 1 Sep 2006
Posts: 14
09-04-2006 18:03
From: Rathe Underthorn
Reliance on stipends is a crutch and using those stipends to buy content only hurts content creators because the stipend L$ you are using is quickly losing its value. It's like using monopoly money to buy milk. I realize it would be very hard to to give up such a crutch and a gentle reduction over time is more ideal than cold turkey so that people have time to adapt.


The problem here is that for your economy model to work, every artist, programmer, and skilled content provider would need to be supported by 100 unskilled dishwashers, cab drivers, labourers, pizza delivery guys, and busboys, as it is in RL. You're focusing on the elite top of a pyramid and ignoring the enormous base required to sustain it.

There really are no jobs in SL for those of us who are "unskilled" (using the term loosely). If you can figure out a way for those of us not so technically adept to make a living in SL (without being bored to tears first), then maybe the stipend could be removed.

A lot of us are just here to have fun. Being in SL without spending money can be a real downer.
alyena Oud
Registered User
Join date: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 1
09-06-2006 04:47
From: Jonas Pierterson

SL needs content. Us content creators aren't going to work for free.




Someone will. Some won't even consider it work
Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
09-06-2006 04:56
From: alyena Oud
From: Jonas Pierterson

SL needs content. Us content creators aren't going to work for free.

Someone will. Some won't even consider it work



Most did before the emphasis on getting rich of SL. Oddly though, for all his use of "Us content creators", I've been around for over 3 years and have never seen any of his "content", apart from mindless drivel on the forums.
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
09-06-2006 05:43
From: alyena Oud
From: Jonas Pierterson

SL needs content. Us content creators aren't going to work for free.




Someone will. Some won't even consider it work


I build mostly for fun. My point is without the stipends, money won't flow so liberally.
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
09-06-2006 05:51
From: Siobhan Taylor
Most did before the emphasis on getting rich of SL. Oddly though, for all his use of "Us content creators", I've been around for over 3 years and have never seen any of his "content", apart from mindless drivel on the forums.


Thats because I'm not a big name :P

I'm mostly doing things that pique my interest anymore, like 'gimmick' dance poles and rotating roses ala disney's beauty and the beast.
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Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
09-06-2006 05:59
From: Jonas Pierterson
Thats because I'm not a big name :P

I'm mostly doing things that pique my interest anymore, like 'gimmick' dance poles and rotating roses ala disney's beauty and the beast.
*shrug*, ok I can understand that. Sorry for the sarky comment. Meh! Wouldn't it be ironic if we all started being civil to one another now on the last days of the forums?
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Cinos Field
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 91
09-06-2006 06:05
From: Star Sleestak
I do too. Anyone who won't pony up a credit card certainly is not going to buy any L$.


I beg to differ.

I registered. Didn't put in a credit card number since I was unsure I'd play the game much.

Played for two days...

Now I've spent probably over 100 dollars on the goddamn thing. >.<
Xanshin Paz
Registered User
Join date: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
end stipends? that won't solve it
09-06-2006 07:13
If you think ending stipends will raise the value of the $L, you haven't thought it through. Read the available documentation. It's the *Sellers of Lindens* that determine the value of the Linden $s.

The idea that ending stipends will limit supply may be an accurate one, but will most likely lead to a drop in circulating Lindens, with a corresponding *increase in competiton for those Lindens among the sellers of content*. How will goods sellers prevail in such a competition, hmmm? Instead of tripping over each other to sell their Lindens at the lowest price, they will be forced to sell their *goods* at the lowest price. Why? because *there are no limits to production in SL*!

The stipend makes joining up as a verified and paid member much more attractive. IT BRINGS IN CUSTOMERS FOR YOUR GOODS AND SERVICES. More customers=bigger market=better chance of your biz surviving.

The stipend doesn't eliminate the need for Lindens, it stimulates the desire for more.

I'm reminded of the visions of Heaven and Hell where all the participants have 4ft forks attached permanently to their hands. In Hell, they all fight each other for the food they can't eat cuz their arms are too long. In Heaven, they feed each other.

Your only chance to control the price of the Linden is to band together as Linden Sellers, form a cartel, and try to control the bottom most price. Why do I say 'try' ? Because the Lindens can print more $L whenever they please. You may, and likely would, achieve a level of control, but LL holds the trump card here.

Go ahead. Get stipends ended. Cut off your nose to spite your face. In the end you'll still be competing against each other to sell your Lindens for the lowest possible price, but your market will be smaller, and your prices will be lower.

End the stipends? Bah. End this thread.
Sergeant Benton
European Perspective
Join date: 30 May 2005
Posts: 46
A little theory
09-06-2006 07:31
From: Xanshin Paz

The idea that ending stipends will limit supply may be an accurate one, but will most likely lead to a drop in circulating Lindens, with a corresponding *increase in competiton for those Lindens among the sellers of content*. How will goods sellers prevail in such a competition, hmmm? Instead of tripping over each other to sell their Lindens at the lowest price, they will be forced to sell their *goods* at the lowest price.


Anyone who knows about fiscal control knows that one way to put a break on inflation is to reduce the money supply. Thats why the Fed puts up interest rates if it starts to look threatening. The "end the stipends" brigade are basically asking for the same thing, except that they want to implement it at the individual level. Call it a "poll tax" if you like.

Does anyone think that raising taxes on the bottom tier of society is the best way to help the economy?

SL has a particular problem, in that there is very little opportunity for "exports". As such there is a massive balance-of-payment deficit at all times. Its like an island with only a tourist industry and no raw materials. Such an economy is inherently unstable, not least because any "fix" would be rapidly exploited by the speculators out there. :(
Kalel Venkman
Citizen
Join date: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 587
09-06-2006 08:16
From: Rathe Underthorn

Please join me in spreading the message by adding your own classified ad or collaborating on higher ranking ones. Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!


You're forgetting that SL isn't an economy. It's an economic simulation, which means that while real dollars are injected into this system, some market forces that would normally be present must be synthesized.

Since the range of available occupations is severely telescoped in SL to a tiny subset of what might otherwise be available in RL, most people - and that's MOST, not some - are completely dependent on those stipends for spending money, having exhausted available gaming funds for the year in RL.

Those who cry for the end of stipends are ignorant of the simple fact that the entire business model of Linden Labs is dependent on maintaining the delicate balance of the synthetic economy they have created.

Ending stipends would also end the economy, and shortly thereafter Second Life as well.
Hervy Rikichi
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jul 2006
Posts: 12
I call bullpuckey
09-06-2006 08:44
From: Rathe Underthorn
I believe in a stable economy for the overall stability and growth of Second Life. If Second Life is to be more than a game then it must provide an environment that supports creativity and rewards innovation.


Why should it be 'more than a game'? I am on sL to chat, explore, build, hang out with friends old and new. It's perfectly enjoyable that way.

From: someone
History has proven that in stable and flourishing economies innovation excels and communities prosper. More arts, more ideas, more culture, and higher standards of living. Whereas it is quite the opposite in unstable economies with poorer standards of living. Less arts, less entertainment, poorer education, and less innovation.


So why is Teen SL, with much lower stipends, so much of a ghetto?

From: someone
That being said, I have put my money where my mouth is. Every Tuesday I receive L$500 in the form of a free stipend. This stipend is the number one significant cause of the devaluation of the L$ as a currency with disasterous effects on the economy causing rampant inflation. I have removed one year of stipend, or L$26,000 from the Second Life economy by publishing a classified ad in the amount of L$26,000 to spread the word of the negative impact stipends have on the stabilization of Second Life as a platform.


notice that the Linden has risen from 330L/$1 to 270L/$1 in the last six weeks...where's that devaluation?

From: someone
Please join me in spreading the message by adding your own classified ad or collaborating on higher ranking ones. Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!


no, stipends are good and necessary. without them, there will be no one to buy the lindens you want to sell...

SL *IS* a game... A ROLE-playing game. Just because you want to play 'unethical money manipulator' doesn't mean *I* have to play it with you.
Reality Control
Conspirator
Join date: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 153
09-06-2006 12:57
From: Rathe Underthorn
I believe in a stable economy for the overall stability and growth of Second Life. If Second Life is to be more than a game then it must provide an environment that supports creativity and rewards innovation.

History has proven that in stable and flourishing economies innovation excels and communities prosper. More arts, more ideas, more culture, and higher standards of living. Whereas it is quite the opposite in unstable economies with poorer standards of living. Less arts, less entertainment, poorer education, and less innovation.

That being said, I have put my money where my mouth is. Every Tuesday I receive L$500 in the form of a free stipend. This stipend is the number one significant cause of the devaluation of the L$ as a currency with disasterous effects on the economy causing rampant inflation. I have removed one year of stipend, or L$26,000 from the Second Life economy by publishing a classified ad in the amount of L$26,000 to spread the word of the negative impact stipends have on the stabilization of Second Life as a platform.

Please join me in spreading the message by adding your own classified ad or collaborating on higher ranking ones. Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!


You're a twat too.
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Quick Buck
Scrooge
Join date: 6 Jun 2006
Posts: 16
09-07-2006 07:58
Hell yea, get rid of the $tipend$, let the plep$ get a job already.
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