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End Stipends Now

Sandy Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 19 May 2006
Posts: 65
06-09-2006 05:54
Life goes on. Nations have had unstable currencies since the incept of even the basic idea of "economy". - If I am a caveman, who has just been hunting and has a nice very huge buffalo roasting on my fire...and you come and offer me fresh buffalo meat for some of my dear belongings.....If I was starving...and really needed it....You just might have a deal. But, for the moment, since I already have a ton of it....I am just going to laugh in your face. Likewise...say you did not have buffalo meat....but something that I had never seen before....and was completely awed by the uniqueness of it...and I DESIRED to have it....I also might accept a trade and give you some of MY buffalo meat.

The point being whether an "economy" is based on gold, buffalo meat, or Lindens, in the END...in ALL economies....the "dollars" are worth only what buyers and sellers AGREE that they are worth. That is the entire concept of an open exchange. Given time...the true "value" of the Linden will establish itself. And restablish itself, always adjusting for changes in the marketplace.

Also, all economies go through growth spurts and declines. Everyone knows about inflation, recession, and even the famous "Great Depression" of the 1930's that America enjoyed so much. Ironically, from which the "New Deal" was born, providing "bonuses" in the form of monthly payments to members of the population (mostly WW1 veterans) to stimulate growth. Also resulting in the now famous Social Security system. ( Though not perfect, it HAS continued to survive). This is part of Social responsibility between the current "haves and have nots" And, as one group from California and Utah had printed on thier truck to display in Washington DC during the time, "We done a good job in France, Now you do a good job in America - We NEED the bonus".

For those who speak today of Greed by the weathy traders and capitalists here in SL....a Mothers quote from the 1930's on the same topic - "Oh why is it that it is always a bunch of overly rich, selfish, dumb ignorant money hogs that persist in being Senators, legislators and representatvies wanting to make laws to take away money from the poor? Where would they and their possesions be if it were not for the Common Soldier, the common laborer that is compelled to work for a starvation wage to survive and support their business"?

These ideas...and problems are not new and unique to the economy of SL. Currencies change depending on the times, and the environment they experience day to day. During the Stock Market Crash in 1929, the famous "Black Thursday, and Tuesday" when the market collapsed. In just a mere 6 months, the value of the US Dollar lost 85.714 % of its value. Traders panicked, running into the streets screaming "SELL, SELL" ! ! Of course, this only compounded the problem.

I Believe it to be a rather IMMENSE leap of faith, to suggest that either the presense or absence of Stipends, will save, or destroy the Linden. This is an evolving economy, with many dynamic factors in play. It is an economy that I doubt ANYONE would claim to truly "understand". I think that it is an over reaction to call for the immediate removal of stipends, across the board, from the economy at large.

Let us not forget, as many certainly WILL NOT, that (using Non-Verified figures posted during this thread) that the OTHER 50% of the "free stipends" are in fact supported by the Premium Account membership FEES paid by those members. Most likely, there are also Land Purchases from LL by these Premium accounts, as that is one reason to have a Premium account. The "Free Stipends" that go out to the quoted "50%" of users, said to be Basic Account holders...must also not be forgotten require the In-World presense of the user once every stipend period, or once a week. If they are coming at least once a week, they ARE supporting Second Life, and its economy, and development.

The world is NOT ending. Life will continue. The Linden will Trade...and it will have a value that is determined by those who use it. Adjustments will be made from time to time. Some painful, and some not so painful. Some "investors and business owners" will be chewed up, destroyed and spit out left to hang, others will reap massive rewards, depending on the quality of their planning and wisdom, and of course, Good Luck.


So be it. In the meantime, as others have said....RELAX. Stipends are NOT a harbinger of "The Apocolypse", and adjustments have already been made concerning the allotment of stipends to new basic account holders. Give these adjustments time to play out, and see the results before screaming for more radical changes.

In the meantime, sit back, relax and have a Margarita !
Musuko Massiel
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 435
06-09-2006 05:56
"END THE GREED IN SL!!! SUPPORT THE STIPENDS STAYING!!!!!"

Huh? End greed by demanding you keep receiving free money?

Musuko.
Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
06-09-2006 07:17
From: Rathe Underthorn
I believe in a stable economy for the overall stability and growth of Second Life. If Second Life is to be more than a game then it must provide an environment that supports creativity and rewards innovation.

History has proven that in stable and flourishing economies innovation excels and communities prosper. More arts, more ideas, more culture, and higher standards of living. Whereas it is quite the opposite in unstable economies with poorer standards of living. Less arts, less entertainment, poorer education, and less innovation.

That being said, I have put my money where my mouth is. Every Tuesday I receive L$500 in the form of a free stipend. This stipend is the number one significant cause of the devaluation of the L$ as a currency with disasterous effects on the economy causing rampant inflation. I have removed one year of stipend, or L$26,000 from the Second Life economy by publishing a classified ad in the amount of L$26,000 to spread the word of the negative impact stipends have on the stabilization of Second Life as a platform.

Please join me in spreading the message by adding your own classified ad or collaborating on higher ranking ones. Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!



err you have to be an alt thus who is the main who posts on this board

i have come to the conclusion that the person making these posts is a grand total of possibly 2 with about 30 alts and money to buy at least one atl per month so they can post another stupid thread with the word stipend in it

or perhaps they do it to protect the identity of their main ....


anyhow yes the stipend thread density died and so a couple of you nutcases had to come out to try to start it again

why may i ask?

borred at work or what?
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-09-2006 07:20
From: Rathe Underthorn
Basic (non-premium, non-paying) accounts are generating nearly 50% of the stipends. Your premium payment is not financing any L$. You get more stipend by paying a premium but again, basic non-paying stipends account for nearly half the stipend being added weekly to the economy, who's financing that? Value is only added to the L$ by user to user exchanges on markets such as LindeX. Unless Linden Labs started buying back L$ there is no value added by them or by your premium payment to them.


My premium agreement says otherwise.

I pay for land use -and- a 500 a week stipend.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
06-09-2006 07:22
From: Musuko Massiel
"END THE GREED IN SL!!! SUPPORT THE STIPENDS STAYING!!!!!"

Huh? End greed by demanding you keep receiving free money?

Musuko.


End greed by keeping people from taking away my paid for stipend for short term profit.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Lina Pussycat
Texture WizKid
Join date: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
06-09-2006 07:30
From: Musuko Massiel
"END THE GREED IN SL!!! SUPPORT THE STIPENDS STAYING!!!!!"

Huh? End greed by demanding you keep receiving free money?

Musuko.


Yes end greed in sl by demanding to keep getting money. And i say this because the greed is people wanting to make a buck off other people not being able to enjoy this as nothing more then some kind of little twisted business platform. And yes to the guy that posted the thing im aware of the surcharge but when you take into account of adding 30 cents even then the value of L is better then what people claim. And to Sandy i think we can legitamately say removal of or keeping the stipend will destroy SL. It wont at first no but over time it will. If it doesnt things will continue as they have with people being more frugal with their money.

Musuko Premium stipends are paid for. There is a slight oversight on it but they are paid for equally enough. It comes down to the people who are selling the L. They set what its worth no one else does. If they want the value to go up it'll go up but they seem to want it to go down. They then come here and whine that the sky is falling and that the economy in its current state is bad.

You do need to realize Sandy that removal of the stipends would actually end an influx of any new currency into SL and would make LL have to more widely control or totally take over Lindex for it to work properly. This being said especially with the change of the economy being able to take it stated in the new TOS agreement. They would need to regularly print their own money and control the lowest value of L to what they set as the lowest. There is no happy medium without total control. These are a few people that want to make SL a less enjoyable place for the majority so they can make a quick buck then quit while b4 things go totally down hill.

I wanna say to all you people that are for the stipends ending. Stop using SL sheerly as a business platform. That is what causes the problems. We cant totally compare SL to a real world economy and people dont want it to be directly like one and i can say that quite honestly. Alot of people come to SL to escape work not start a second job. The people that are for ending stipends seem like the type of people that would lock me in a sweat shop and pay me like 3 cents an hour to make shoes. They will do anything to make a profit and dont care about the people themselves.

Im for the stipend staying and I pay LL about 60 usd a month. Thats 720 usd a year out of that i get 500L a week that i put back into someone elses hands. Now what that person does with it is cash out and often wants to cash out fast and this hurts the economy as a whole. I dont think they honestly think about it b4 putting it up. It becomes a never ending cycle because other people do the same to get ahead of them and L will keep decliining without LL actually stepping in to control it partially with the stipends there or fully without them there.

One way hurts the majority of buyers/sellers and benefits a tiny tiny minority of people that actually have alot of L now. The other way hurts the people that sell L on lindex but benefits buyers being able to get more and keeps a balance even though the creators may need to raise their prices a bit. There is a third way in which LL just takes over the currency exchange getting rid of the stipends which just hurts everyone but LL. And a 4th way in which they have partial control over it and could actually slowly pull it to a higher value if they started pulling back a lowest value allowed per day.

There isnt a simple solution to the problem as one can tell that is going to keep all sides happy. Either buyers are gunna be pissed off or sellers and its going to keep going and going and going on for a long time. All you people do is complain about something that is hurting the economy that actually is what you yourself depend on someone else spending to buy your product. Your outcry is hypocrtical in and of itself and it makes me laugh every single time i read it.

SUPPORT THE STIPENDS!!!!
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 07:57
From: Lina Pussycat
I think you people ranting to end stipends are prolly the lowest people in SL you obviously dont enjoy playing it and dont care if others do or not. Your out for your own little greedy agenda's and you yourselves are the ones hurting the economy with spewing crap like this.


Yeah, way to generalize everyone by lumping people who's positions you don't understand into the "greedy money grubbing" category. Yes, I lost at least $100US on inflation in the past year, but I'm here for the building, scripting, and interracting part of the game. Things that don't need money. The reason I am also for reducing the stippends in the hopes of balancing out the economy is because OTHER people I have talked to, some of whom are friends and aquaintances, are getting extremely hurt by the drop in the $L. They put in a lot of money and time into this game to provide fun places for people to hand out (some of those places being in the top 20 highest dwell locations for the last two years or so), and are suddenly feeling a crunch due to the $L drop. No, I'm not saying that they're making less profits off the game, I'm saying they're finding it more and more difficult to just break even. i.e. make enough $L in game to pay for the huge land tier fees that LL charges them. This isn't about some money grubbing land barons not being able to make a profit, it's about very poor folks who are pumping a lot of their hard earned $USD into the game for the sake of others' enjoyment having a difficult time making ends meet. This is about supporting the people who are paying out of their own pockets for the land and content that the majority of the people in SL enjoy. People who, even if they REALLY enjoy doing what they are doing here, will simply not be able to afford to keep providing their services if the value of $L can't help cover their tier. Yes, those "capitalist" will just dissapear if things go on they way they have been (although I do note the fact that $L seems to have stabilized, question is whether it's for good). And yes, there will be plenty of people who will continue to make freebies and provide small parcels of their land for people to hang out on. But don't forget that a huge amount of land in this game depends on $L to $US conversion. That huge amount of land will be abandoned and will dissapear. The stores and rental places will dissapear. The content from those stores and the places for people to hang out will dissapear. Worst case scenario will be that we end up with an even smaller mainland, and maybe three to five islands owned by people who ARE money barons in RL and can afford the enormous expense of holding onto them. I doubt this will happen though. Mainly because LL will step in way before that happens to fix things (or already have). But please, don't go around accusing people of being greedy. Yes, there are plenty of greedy people in SL. But they're not the ones who are getting hurt by all this.
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
06-09-2006 08:02
From: Musuko Massiel
"END THE GREED IN SL!!! SUPPORT THE STIPENDS STAYING!!!!!"

Huh? End greed by demanding you keep receiving free money?

Musuko.


Just to build on Lina's point.

Greed is a motivation, not a situation, not a process.

Why we say keep the stipend is not for greed. It's to preserve a part of SL that will be severely damaged with the absence of this flow of money that does not need to be explicitly purchased on the Lindex.

It's for people who are not in the game for business. There are multitude of them. Some are here for fun and as an escape from the pressures of daily living. Some are here for higher purposes like disabled people who just want to experience some semblance of just being like other people, like developing educational approaches, and others to express their creativity. By means of the stipend they are guaranteed a regular flow of L$ no matter how the Lindex moves. That is, they can play without thought of the Lindex.

But LL wanted to also allow an economy to co-exist.

Stipends allow a world of business and a world of hassle-free creativity to co-exist.

Can one call that greed?

On the other hand people are screaming at the plunging US$/L$ value and thinking the economy will be saved by stipend removal. Such a move will cause the Linden value to rise for a short while, then the economy will vanish as people who now are forced to buy their L$ have the following choices.

1. Make their own stuff
But part of the point of having the currency is for those who can't build to still enjoy.

2. Buy L$

3. Be more selective of purchases
This will lower sales volumes, causing prices to go up.

4. Just continue with what they have plus freebies
This is absolutely lost sales, rental, and the like

5. Leave SL
No customer = no sale.

The kill stipend camp wants situation #2 to exist not taking into consideration that situations #3, #4, and #5 will also appear if the stipends were removed.

#3,4, and 5 will mean reduced fun levels because turnover of variety will drop.

So see why we want the stipend retained? Is it greed? Nope.

To the problems we're having in the economy, there have to be solutions made, but ending the stipends isn't it. Altering the value somewhat, maybe, but not ending it.

It may be better for all of us if we hold the stipends where they are, at $500 a week for the premium accounts, use that as a platform, then find ways of increasing the revenue of those that need the revenue for maintenance and such.
FireFox Bancroft
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 134
Bad situation made worse.
06-09-2006 08:14
I think they should go back to Stipeds for new basic accounts, I'm now being accosted by beggers sending me random IM's asking for L$1 Its very annoying especially when I barely have enough for myself. :(
_____________________
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
06-09-2006 08:16
I refuse to buy Lindens from these people. It may be inconvenience but their content is not worth it. If I really need something will consider paying American Dollars for it.

What you will get by removal of the stipends is losing me as a customer. If I cant make it in the game well too bad!

Oh, I have been handing out freebies at Orientation Island. However most of them do not seem new. They appear at the starting spot and soon depart! Either flying off of Tping!
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 08:17
From: Aodhan McDunnough
Just to build on Lina's point.

Greed is a motivation, not a situation, not a process.

Why we say keep the stipend is not for greed. It's to preserve a part of SL that will be severely damaged with the absence of this flow of money that does not need to be explicitly purchased on the Lindex.



It seems what has happened here is the clash between enjoying LL as a free form of entetrainment (or rather a $10 a month form of entertainment), and a slow evolution of SL to where that entertainment is provided by the residents for a small fee (our evolution of economy). Less and less LL created content and land is available, while more and more player owned land and content is created. There's a slow but rather large shift from paying LL to play this game to paying the content creators. It's not the fault of the "greedy" money barons though. It's the fault of LL for charging land tier.
So if you want to blame the drop of $L value, or the extreme pressure on having to actually spend $US to buy $L to pay for people's content and land, as opposed to the communistic way things used to be, were everyone got $500+L a week with the value of it being worth almost nothing, most of the world being filled with freebies, and most of the land being owned by LL, then blame LL. Or better yet, blame Philip, since that's what he tells people to do. on't blame the land barons who are trying to make ends meet just so that people they like could have a fun place to hang out. And don't blame the content providers who foolishly expected to get something in return for the large amount of time and money they put into things they hoped people would enjoy. Blame Philip for making SL a content provider based economy, instead of a LL Company based one.
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
06-09-2006 08:21
From: FireFox Bancroft
I think they should go back to Stipeds for new basic accounts, I'm now being accosted by beggers sending me random IM's asking for L$1 Its very annoying especially when I barely have enough for myself. :(


Begging. This was something I was afraid of.


@Rasah

Yes it's a clash. Not unexpected, but something we have to deal with. I would rather find approaches to increase revenue to those who need it than take away the stipend from those who need it for their hassle-free play.

For those having severe tier problems, scaling back might be prudent in some cases.
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 08:22
From: Ranma Tardis
I refuse to buy Lindens from these people. It may be inconvience but their content is not worth it. If I really need something will consider paying American Dollars for it.

What you will get by removal of the stipends is losing me as a customer. If I cant make it in the game well too bad!


I would expect that most people don't want you or your kind as a customer, either. Many basic "middle-class" content providers charge in $L not only to help cover their tier, but to have some $L to spend in game. Your $USD won't help them.

From: Ranma Tardis

Oh, I have been handing out freebies at ortientation island. However most of them do not seem new. They appear at the starting spot and soon depart! Either flying off of Tping!


That probably means that what I suspected is true: most people coming to SL come here because their friends have pushed them into it. Which means that despite having $0l, they probably already have someone here to hang out with who can help them out with both learning how to play, and with getting a few extra $L to start with.
_____________________
--- I feed trolls for fun and profit.

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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
06-09-2006 08:45
From: Rasah Tigereye
I would expect that most people don't want you or your kind as a customer, either. Many basic "middle-class" content providers charge in $L not only to help cover their tier, but to have some $L to spend in game. Your $USD won't help them.


Lindens does not pay tier. You have to convert them into dollars. My landlord prefers dollars and I get a discount by paying them in such.

I finally got my custom skin and paid for it in dollars. It was not a problem

You are so full of it when you say content providers prefer Lindens! American Dollars in your bank account are worth a lot more than Lindens in your account. Lindens that need to be sold. There is a cost to do this. Remember Linden Labs wants American Dollars and not Lindens to pay tier. There is also a cost to transfer the credit to your account as well.

Oh silly boy, content providers are happy to take my money! I just do not need as much content now as in the beginning.


From: Rasah Tigereye

That probably means that what I suspected is true: most people coming to SL come here because their friends have pushed them into it. Which means that despite having $0l, they probably already have someone here to hang out with who can help them out with both learning how to play, and with getting a few extra $L to start with.


Think most of the new accounts are either Alts, griefers and or children.
Dmitri Polonsky
Registered User
Join date: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 562
06-09-2006 08:58
From: Rathe Underthorn
I believe in a stable economy for the overall stability and growth of Second Life. If Second Life is to be more than a game then it must provide an environment that supports creativity and rewards innovation.

History has proven that in stable and flourishing economies innovation excels and communities prosper. More arts, more ideas, more culture, and higher standards of living. Whereas it is quite the opposite in unstable economies with poorer standards of living. Less arts, less entertainment, poorer education, and less innovation.

That being said, I have put my money where my mouth is. Every Tuesday I receive L$500 in the form of a free stipend. This stipend is the number one significant cause of the devaluation of the L$ as a currency with disasterous effects on the economy causing rampant inflation. I have removed one year of stipend, or L$26,000 from the Second Life economy by publishing a classified ad in the amount of L$26,000 to spread the word of the negative impact stipends have on the stabilization of Second Life as a platform.

Please join me in spreading the message by adding your own classified ad or collaborating on higher ranking ones. Put your money where your mouth is and lets END STIPENDS NOW!



Tthis will efecxtively end content creation in SL....jobs in SL do NOT pay...in dollars or L's. People need L's to buy land clothes skins weapons furniture vehicles etc etc. Contrary to what you end stipend fools think, MOSt people in second life do not buy L's. The only thing you are going to accomplish pushing this is making SL a chat where there are only land barons and money market speculators trading back and forth in a dull dreary place.
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 09:09
From: Aodhan McDunnough
@Rasah

Yes it's a clash. Not unexpected, but something we have to deal with. I would rather find approaches to increase revenue to those who need it than take away the stipend from those who need it for their hassle-free play.

For those having severe tier problems, scaling back might be prudent in some cases.



In regards to tiering, for some that's not an option. People who own islands, and people who own a certain amount of mainland that allows them place for privacy or whatever (they buy up land to keep casinos from forming nearby) are some examples. Some places I would also REALLY rather not see "scaling back."


As for the clash, yeah, it's just yet another one of SL's growing pains that all of us have to go through. I think according to LL it's really up to us to figure out how to increase revenue for those who need it. We need to work on coming up with ideas for jobs that newbies could do and would actually enjoy (or at least find it to be worth their time to get the stuff they want to buy). It's tough, considering a lot of easy RL type jobs such as delivery or making basic stuffs aren't easilly transferable to SL world. Things I can think of is data entry.... Maybe hire people to inspect your large builds (houses/mega ships) for errors and cracks (light shining through, or x,y,z coordinates not matching). I guess since LL has alreadu cut stippends, and no doubt will continue to reduce them, it's now up to us, the content providers/builders/scripers to start spreading the wealth by splitting our large jobs into parts others can help with, and up to us to split the wealth that is knowledge, practice, and possibilit of income.

(I personally am considering taking some of the projects I have an outsourcing some parts of them to others, like, say, "I need a menu system that asks people the following questions, and gives me a result in integer form on this channel. Get to it";). Might even hire someone to finally go over the 900 or so prims that my ship is built out of and replace the old LAGGY cloaking script with a new one. I can write the script, I'm just way too lazy to go through every one of the pannels, delete the old script, and drag/drop a new one). If people do more of this, this will lead to larger groups being able to work on more complex projects, which would lead to even better content.
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Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 09:14
From: Ranma Tardis
Lindens does not pay tier. You have to convert them into dollars. My landlord prefers dollars and I get a discount by paying them in such.


Your landlord is also Ansche, who has been accused of messing with the economy, trying to destroy other businesses, and is no doubt the biggest landlord in this entire game. Way to support the little guy.


From: Ranma Tardis

I finally got my custom skin and paid for it in dollars. It was not a problem


To many people are. They'd rather pay for it in $L. And if paying in dollars isn't a problem, what's the taboo with doing it through Lindex?

From: Ranma Tardis

You are so full of it when you say content providers prefer Lindens! American Dollars in your bank account are worth a lot more than Lindens in your account. Lindens that need to be sold. There is a cost to do this. Remember Linden Labs wants American Dollars and not Lindens to pay tier. There is also a cost to transfer the credit to your account as well.


Go talk to shop owners. Ask them if they would rather set up teir store to take payments in US$ through PayPal, or through $L. And there's no cost other than the %3.5 to convert your $L into the $US that LL accepts. You can pay tier out of your Lindex account.

From: Ranma Tardis

Think most of the new accounts are either Alts, griefers and or children.


What's your point?
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--- I feed trolls for fun and profit.

http://www.xnicole.com
mcgeeb Gupte
Jolie Femme @}-,-'-,---
Join date: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,152
06-09-2006 12:48
From: Rathe Underthorn
.
I have removed one year of stipend, or L$26,000 from the Second Life economy by publishing a classified ad in the amount of L$26,000 to spread the word of the negative impact stipends have on the stabilization of Second Life as a platform.
QUOTE]

We're supposed to listen to someone with the brains to waste $26,000 Lindens on a useless ad.
Lina Pussycat
Texture WizKid
Join date: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
06-09-2006 13:10
Rasah as i pointed out in a previous post make sure you can afford your tier with USD without impacting you financially before you get involved in paying tier. Those that rely on L to pay their tier are not trying to break even but rather trying to make a profit. And i wont blame LL charging tier for the decline of L they arnt the ones selling it on ebay and lindex and other places for a lesser and lesser value. These people wanna cover their tier or be able to cover it. You know i say tough nuts to them. They should know better.

Thats jsut common you dont pay for something you cant really afford. This causes a debt situation. I myself know i can pay my tier monthly and if i had L to cover that great but im not going to run screaming that the sky is falling if i dont get L which i dont currently trade in L. The problem is that people are to free to dictate the price on Lindex without consequence if you want the truth. Its them going in selling so much L at a given price and people then putting their prices lower to compete to sell faster.

I garuntee you if the most costly sales came up first the linden would travel in the opposite direction because these people would have to sell higher in order to sell faster. Come to think of it an idea just popped into my head from that and it could work as nutty as it sounds would require a bit of managment of LindeX on a weekly or monthly basis however. Make the economy a kind of sliding scale for a short time do what i said if the value gets to high switch it back to how it is. Solves The entire problem without so much as impacting a single player and should make these people outcrying for getting rid of the stipends happy that the value can go up instead of down depending how fast it travels up or down.

Sure my statement sounds a bit nutty and out there but it could very well work. In all honesty there isnt a simple solution to this problem. The simplest way in all honesty is LL completely taking over the currency exchange and dictating prices. LL could technically create a sink on LindEx for sellers to. Say 100L to every 1000L sold this would get rid of some of the money In SL to but it wouldnt be approved and they'd outcry that they are making less from that to.

Its laughable in its entirity its not even an argument. Simple as pie that SL will not do well without its stipend. And Ill ask you again to honestly look at yourselves, the community, and the economy and your friends and everyone in SL and honestly be able to still say that getting rid of the stipends is the best way to fix the economy without a lump of guilt in your entire being. Can you honestly do it? I know i couldnt because i know its a bold faced lie.

SUPPORT KEEPING THE STIPENDS!!!!
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
06-09-2006 13:30
From: Rasah Tigereye
Your landlord is also Ansche, who has been accused of messing with the economy, trying to destroy other businesses, and is no doubt the biggest landlord in this entire game. Way to support the little guy.


WRONG!!! I rent from "D'ALLIEZ SIMS". They are a good company and if you are in the market for a rental you chould contact Tony Beckett or Alliez Mysterio. They are good people and not like A landlord :)

From: Rasah Tigereye
To many people are. They'd rather pay for it in $L. And if paying in dollars isn't a problem, what's the taboo with doing it through Lindex?


It lets me kow what I am really paying. Understand I do not buy much content now.



From: Rasah Tigereye
Go talk to shop owners. Ask them if they would rather set up teir store to take payments in US$ through PayPal, or through $L. And there's no cost other than the %3.5 to convert your $L into the $US that LL accepts. You can pay tier out of your Lindex account.


I dont think so! Why would Linden Labs accept fake money? It takes real money to pay employees, pay the rent and electric bills.



From: Rasah Tigereye
What's your point?


I dont think these new residents want to buy Lindens.
Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 13:31
Lina, I can honestly say that that lowering the stippends is at the time the only way to fix any kind of inflation in any sort of economy. Sinks, especially in the forms of taxes, just won't work. If I have yo pay $100L for every $1000L item I sell, I'll just sell that item for $1100, which would stil cut into your stippend, not my profit. Fixing the value at some point won't work either, especially when there are three other places people can buy their $L cheaper, and sell their $L faster.
In regards to paying something you can't afford, the problem is that these people paid for something they at the time could afford, and figured they could afford for white a while. It's the recent drop from below $300 down to $330 that scared people into worrying about whether they could still afford their tier or not. And saying that, "Well, they shouldn't've expected to be able to afford it," or "it's their fault for investing," it pointless, since one could just as easilly say that "it's stupid for someone to pay $10US tier, when they can loose their job at any time." People take rists. That's not the problem. Finding ways to mitigate those risks (making them not as bad) is what I'm hoping for. Less risk = more stability = more happiness for everyone. And even if some do rely on the $L to make a small profit, why is that wrong? They have put in their own time and work into this game. Why shouldn't they get something in return? But those people are not of concern to me. The ones loosing out are.
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Rasah Tigereye
"Buckaneer American"
Join date: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 783
06-09-2006 13:35
From: Ranma Tardis

I dont think so! Why would Linden Labs accept fake money? It takes real money to pay employees, pay the rent and electric bills.


I said, "It costs a %3.5 fee to convert $L into $US on Lindex, which you can use to pay your tier with right out of Lindex." As in use the $US that you get from your $L to pay for your tier, not $L.


From: Ranma Tardis

I dont think these new residents want to buy Lindens.


We'll see. So far the old ones are buying a lot from Lindex, and this past week the $L sold on there has jumped to as high as $14mil to $15mil, from the usual $10mil. Either way I don't see the demand for $L waning any.
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Lina Pussycat
Texture WizKid
Join date: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
06-09-2006 14:30
From: Rasah Tigereye
Lina, I can honestly say that that lowering the stippends is at the time the only way to fix any kind of inflation in any sort of economy. Sinks, especially in the forms of taxes, just won't work. If I have yo pay $100L for every $1000L item I sell, I'll just sell that item for $1100, which would stil cut into your stippend, not my profit. Fixing the value at some point won't work either, especially when there are three other places people can buy their $L cheaper, and sell their $L faster.
In regards to paying something you can't afford, the problem is that these people paid for something they at the time could afford, and figured they could afford for white a while. It's the recent drop from below $300 down to $330 that scared people into worrying about whether they could still afford their tier or not. And saying that, "Well, they shouldn't've expected to be able to afford it," or "it's their fault for investing," it pointless, since one could just as easilly say that "it's stupid for someone to pay $10US tier, when they can loose their job at any time." People take rists. That's not the problem. Finding ways to mitigate those risks (making them not as bad) is what I'm hoping for. Less risk = more stability = more happiness for everyone. And even if some do rely on the $L to make a small profit, why is that wrong? They have put in their own time and work into this game. Why shouldn't they get something in return? But those people are not of concern to me. The ones loosing out are.


You fail to see that its not a fix at all. Its not even a viable solution. You fail completely to take into account how these people selling the L act on Lindex. You fail completely at applying a valid argument as to why its a good idea just that you think its a good idea. Go along with the big name people go ahead. This wont lead to the future of SL and its not viable at all. It wont fix the economy it wont stabalize it it wont do anything other then turn a short term profit for a tiny minority in SL. And im not saying 100L per every item you sell im saying that LL take it directly when someone sells L.

If the concern is volume then im sure these people wouldnt mind putting 100L per 1000L they sell really. Less risk may = more stability but it does not equal more happiness. And while these people arnt wrong for wanting to turn a profit they are wrong for trying to crush the rest of our enjoyment to do so. You seem to fail to grasp any type of factor that while a person may look for a return while they are the minority they should not make requests to benefit only themselves or a very tiny % of the population. These risks wont go down or up and alot of what you fail to see is that the stipend is important to everyone wether they realize it or not.

As i said unless LL completely takes control of LindEx this isnt a viable solution at all. And the point i was making about what you can afford is knowing you have a stable income of that amount per month that you can afford without financially impacting you that you cant pay other bills. These people are simply out to make a profit is the problem. They dont care about people they dont care what happens at all to the economy as long as they can turn a profit.

I'll go into the fact that while there are other currency exchanges and other places they can sell L the people reacting are reacting to LindEx. And You proved my point in your statement in its entirity that there isnt a solution and that this wont work. You fail to take into account that the majority of the population doesnt want this mabye like 1-3% total of the population if that. Its like screaming hey im dying when you sitting there stabbing yourself. Thats what they are doing really is causing panic over something they themselves caused.

These people will lose out ever more if the stipend is gotten rid of. People will be more fickle with their money causing a bigger risk then exists now. More volume in this case actually is less of a risk because people can afford more money and will actually spend more. The problem with your theory here is that it makes it so you get rid of many of the social contact in game and it forces these people to become content developers. Its not a good thing to do and you know that as well as I do that it wont help. You just post here to insite some kind of fear in people and im not quite sure why.

Stop trying to make people panic for the minority. I think you minority of people in SL need to start looking past your own selfish desires and look into what the future of SL actually needs. When you make about 10% of what you do now i will sit there and laugh my ass off at you while you complain that SL needs to have money coming in. You seem to fail to realize that your hoping exactly the opposite will happen of what is going to happen. Your hoping for some eutopian thing that has no risks its not going to happen as long as there are people. The effect of what your stating will cause more people to lose out not what your thinking. Face the reality of it that your argument is wrong and get on with your life.

If you guys like complaining so much then leave there is a little thing called Cancel Account. If you dont like it you have the choice to leave instead of staying here. But dont try to force your twisted views on other people and try to influence the lindens to do things that will hurt the majority of the people in SL for your own selfish gains.

I think a quote Ze made pertains here : "In a perfect world you and I probably wouldn't exist, so let's stop hoping for one."
Kyrah Abattoir
cruelty delight
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,786
06-09-2006 15:15
lina you obviously have no clue about whta is happening, the only ones that get currently a short term gain are the consumers, since the L$ is cheap, but on the long run it is just making it ad worthless as paper coins
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Lina Pussycat
Texture WizKid
Join date: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 731
06-09-2006 15:22
Kyrah i think you fail to see what i said. Getting rid of the stipends will cause the reverse it wont help anyone. It will also allow the minority to control SL as a whole basically because hey guess what they got the money and guess what we gotta buy it from them. You fail to see my point so obviously its pointless trying to explain it to you. Im not sure if something is wrong with the folks who obviously have no social decency when claiming to get rid of the stipends. All this talk of the pro-stipned people being socialists and expecting welfare is stupid and the point is mooted simply from them being in world.

They rely on stipends themselves which makes the argument kind of stupid. All this profit comes from the stipends. The people buying L may have some short term effect on them sure but if they can afford to buy more L they are more likely to spend more thus benefiting both sides. I think you guys need to take a chill pill and actually lay back and actually see what SL needs as opposed to what you want to do to line your own pockets. You yourselves cause the problems in SL and you are to blame for the state its in not the stipends or the consumers.

And i know perfectly what is going on I've been here long enough to and have been among human beings long enough to know how they act. And if the currency becomes as worthless as paper coins well guess what its the people selling the L's fault it became so valueless no one elses. Dont try to push the blame on the stipends just because you people made a msitake and now cant fix it.
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